Criteria Draft Round 1 - NoPace vs NM/Snow

[RoadTrip]

Team NM/Snow

Goalkeeper:

Gianluigi Buffon: One of the best keepers of the last 30 odd years. The best of the 2000s. World Cup winner.

Defense:

David Alaba: Arguably the best young LB in the world, and one of the best overall. Starter for Bayern Munich during their recent domination

Roberto Ayala: A rock at the back. One of the best center backs of his generation

Alessandro Costacurta: Part of Milan's legendary back 4. Master of his trade.

Francisco Arce: Excellent Set Piece taker. Paraguay's right back of the 1998 and 2002 WC.

Midfield:

Fernando Redondo: A complete midfielder. Redondo had it all. Awareness, positioning, tackling, passing and mobility. Much more than a defensive midfielder, and amongst the best of his time.

Michael Ballack: A commanding presence in midfield. He is complete - can pass, tackle, score and dominate.

Cesc Fabregas: No real introductions. One of the best in the world. Excellent creatively, but can cut it in the physical battles of English league as well.

Wings:

Ryan Giggs: Needs no introduction on this site other than a reminder of how devastating his pace and dribbling used to be..

Fredrik Ljungberg: An Invincible. Premier league watchers will need no introduction. Top right winger who can stay wide as well as drift in and link play.

Forward:

Neymar: Brazil's great hope. Carried them to the WC Semi Final and carried Barcelona when Messi was out.

Sub:

Gonzalo Higuain: 108 goals for Real Madrid in 190 games. Starter for Argentina at the WC. Super sub for our team.

Team Thoughts:

• Ayala and Costacurta are a solid proven partnership. Two top centerbacks who played together.
• Alaba will go forward, with Arce tucking in a bit more. A combination of one staying back while the other goes forward will help the defense.
• Redondo will actively take part in the midfield battle, and drift a little (only a little) to keep an eye on Ronaldo when needed.
• Redondo, Fabregas and Ballack will dominate the midfield. Ballack and Cesc will take it in turns to bomb forward, overwhelming the opposition.
• Giggs will stretch the defense, while Ljungberg will stay wide or link in as needed
• Neymar will have a free role, with a brief to stay up top.

Why I think I'll win:

• Better individuals (sorry!)
• Better cohesion and game plan
• Midfield dominance
• Solid, proven central defense

Individual Notes:

• Giggs and Ljungberg will terrorize his fullbacks.
• Ballack, Cesc and Redondo will dominate the midfield. If the likes of Rooney and Baggio drop deep to help, it will severely dent his attacking edge
• Ayala-Costacurta are two of the best of their times. Fire and ice, and extremely solid. I'd back them to keep out anybody.
• My team is built as a cohesive unit with great workrate, flair and pace. The idea is to play our natural game, and make Nopace's team adjust to us.

Team NoPace

Basic Style I'll play:

Not pressing too high up the pitch, but pressing hard once they get to half and looking to counter quickly. Baggio and Ronaldo will feast on the space in behind (and Rooney is also at his best as a 9 on the counter).

Giggs, Ljungberg and Neymar don't scare me when buildup is slow, so I think I can choke off much of his attack by not giving them a lot of open space to run at.

Why I'll score multiple goals:

Baggio and Ronaldo are all-time greats, unstoppable at their peak and playing in their proper positions, surrounded by hard-working winners ensuring they get the best out of them.

Rooney proved himself a wonderful foil to Ronaldo at United and they reunite here. Rooney will also occupy defenders to give Baggio room like Massaro and others did for Italy in 94. Redondo was wonderful on the ball, but Baggio can get wide and outpace him as Hagi did in that same tournament.

Cristiano Ronaldo vs Arce has to be the biggest individual mismatch on the pitch, by a fair bit. Arce was a good crosser and very good set piece taker, but he can't hope to keep Ronaldo from cutting in and getting shots off, or from going outside. Aerially, the mismatch might even be worse. Ronaldo is basically good for a goal a game, and I think he gets one here.

Hassler was a wonderful carillero who was one of the 4 or 5 best Germans in their WC win in 90 and Euro win in 96. He'll link play, provide width at times on the right and help in the midfield battle to make it 4 vs 3 often, with Baggio dropping deeper too. The 2-time German footballer of the year helped Matthaus and Klinsmann get the plaudits with his intelligent play, and he'll do the same here.

Schweinsteiger and Senna were both lovely passers best at linking play and getting the ball to more dangerous types up the pitch than a killer Pirlo style ball over the top. Getting Baggio and Ronaldo the ball repeatedly will be their duty here. Both were excellent at their peak when pressed, as well, calmly moving play wide or forward.

My fullbacks are both good crossers from deep who can look to hit Ronaldo and Rooney with crosses. They will mostly focus on defensive duties, but both were very intelligent players who can be counted on to overlap occasionally to good effect. Juanfran put his team in the CL final just a few months ago with his intelligent runs (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2014/05...ico-juanfran-skips-past-hazard-for-two-goals/)

Aldair and Thiago Silva were/are very comfortable on the ball as carriers and passers, so I'm not worried about distribution at all.

Why I won't concede more than one:

A very athletic pairing of the 2 best Brazilian centre backs in decades should gel well together, Carboni was excellent defensively, starting until he was 40 for Benitez's airtight Valencia teams. Juanfran just finished a fantastic season for another incredibly tight La Liga defense (26 goals conceded) that finished runner up in the CL. Cech will organize it all. At his peak, a truly terrifying keeper.

Schweinsteiger and Senna form a very daunting shield in front of them, both being physical, intelligent, mobile footballers. Obviously they'll have their work cut out for them with Ballack and Fabregas, but I think they can both be counted on not to lose either on their late runs.

Giggs, Neymar and Ljungberg were all twice the players when they had space in behind to attack with their pace, and I won't allow it here. Higuain is a very good striker, but not world class.

Hassler and Rooney were both hard-working types who will contribute defensively and the threat of Ronaldo and Baggio on the counter should also assist by keeping their opponents back.

 

[RoadTrip]

@NM
@Snow
@NoPace

 

[NM]

That's an interesting formation... I don't understand his point about Neymar Giggs and Ljungberg not having space... His wide players aren't wide, and we all know Ronaldo isn't going to track back!! Cesc, Redondo and Ballack are all great passers. They will have no trouble.

Also I'd like to point out that the midfield battle is in my favor - Nopace's graphic shows differently, but if all his boys are in MF, he has nobody up top.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Oh, man! This is going to be tough to call.

 

[NM]

Can somebody genuinely explain to me how Nopace is going to control this? I see us dominating. Rooney and Ronaldo were terrifying on the counterattack, but Costacurta-Ayala were amazing CBs and Redondo is policing and protecting them.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Always thought Neyamr was better as indisde left. He certainly is capable of playing lone striker, but imo it does not get the best out of him.

 

[RoadTrip]

feck me this is hard. But I'll say it straight off the bat: Neymar is potentially the worst type of player to have up top when you have Giggs or Ljungberg on the wings.

 

[NM]

How is a midfield with fecking Senna in it going to dominate anything? I wonder if Ronaldo name is swaying the votes here

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

NM would have most of the possession, but find difficulty in scoring. But when NoPace gets the ball, he will be lethal with Ronaldo, Baggio and Rooney there. I think NoPace will not control the game, yet outscore NM.

 

[Balu]

I'm not sure if Ronaldo, Rooney & Baggio is a genius combination or a total clusterfeck. Anyone else having serious problems to see how that'll work? I could see them getting into each others way a lot, but somehow I also can see them being incredible on the counter and scoring some crazy goals.

@NM Why don't you start Higuain upfront? I get it, people ridicule him a lot for his finishing, but he has decent hold-up play in my opinion, and his scoring rate isn't that bad. Play Fabregas next to Redondo and Ballack in his 2002 role, as a kinda box to box AM with a crazy goalscoring record. You have brilliant service from the wings and want Ballack to connect on crosses as often as possible in my opinion. I really like your team overall, but Neymar upfront looks not only a bit weak but also as the totally wrong type of player, at least definitely not the one I'd want in that team.

Hassler was a wonderful carillero who was one of the 4 or 5 best Germans in their WC win in 90 and Euro win in 96. He'll link play, provide width at times on the right and help in the midfield battle to make it 4 vs 3 often, with Baggio dropping deeper too. The 2-time German footballer of the year helped Matthaus and Klinsmann get the plaudits with his intelligent play, and he'll do the same here.

@NoPace I'm not sure I'd have him as a top5 player in the German team in either of those two tournaments. However, he was in my opinion player of the tournament at the Euro in 1992, that really was his standout performance and showed how brilliant he was. Great player, one of the few players I liked despite playing for our blue neighbours here in munich

 

[harms]

Brilliant teams there. Need some time to think here.
But I don't think that Neymar is in his best role here. Higuain would be a better fit

 

[Chesterlestreet]

In terms of actual goal threat this is a one-sided affair, as I see it. You may dominate the midfield all you like but you need to score goals in order to win a football match. How many times did United under Fergie, and post Keano's prime, "dominate the midfield"? It's a cliche which doesn't rhyme with how a football match actually plays out. You can demolish an opponent without winning these imaginary "battles" in the middle of the pitch.

Senna is a no-mark compared to Redondo but he's clearly used as a pure holder (as I interpret the set-up and the tactics). And as such he'll do just fine. Senna as the pure DM, Schweinsteiger as the allrounder, Hässler as a hard working AND creative (and, not least, tactically impeccable) offensive/central midfielder with the ability to stretch the play out wide. And Baggio as a No 10 of sorts - one who is a huge goal threat. And then there's Ronaldo, who can simply do his usual thing in this set-up. And Rooney - leading the line and dropping deep (as he does naturally). I like it very much, I have to say.

 

[RoadTrip]

@Balu for me it depends which Rooney. The today's Rooney? Sure, Baggio and Rooney will occupy the same spaces to a degree.

But the one who was arguably better, when Rooney burst on the scene? To me that's a perfect 3 then. Rooney'a drive and power, Ronaldo's pace and trickery, and Baggio's composure and elegance.

 

[NM]

@Balu for me it depends which Rooney. The today's Rooney? Sure, Baggio and Rooney will occupy the same spaces to a degree.

But the one who was arguably better, when Rooney burst on the scene? To me that's a perfect 3 then. Rooney'a drive and power, Ronaldo's pace and trickery, and Baggio's composure and elegance.

Not related to the battle but Rooney is a FAR better player now than when he burst on the scene. More flashy then, more effective now.

Sorry I can't contribute much but I'm at work and boss sits behind me

 

[RoadTrip]

Sorry guys, gone for NoPace. I really do like your side NM/Snow, but Neymar completely ruins it for me. Sorry.

 

[NoPace]

How is a midfield with fecking Senna in it going to dominate anything? I wonder if Ronaldo name is swaying the votes here

Spain did okay in 2008, as I recall.

 

[RoadTrip]

Not related to the battle but Rooney is a FAR better player now than when he burst on the scene. More flashy then, more effective now.

Sorry I can't contribute much but I'm at work and boss sits behind me

I don't think that's entirely fair. Rooney doesn't need to play the 10 here. He needs to score and run past his man. Considering those skills alone he is better for this team in the capacity of how he burst on the scene.

Overall Rooney is better player now i would agree. But I know plenty who wouldn't.

 

[RoadTrip]

Honestly with a better striker, who would get the best out of having a Giggs and Ljungberg on the flanks, my vote would be different. I just detest the fact Neymar is there.

 

[NoPace]

In terms of actual goal threat this is a one-sided affair, as I see it. You may dominate the midfield all you like but you need to score goals in order to win a football match. How many times did United under Fergie, and post Keano's prime, "dominate the midfield"? It's a cliche which doesn't rhyme with how a football match actually plays out. You can demolish an opponent without winning these imaginary "battles" in the middle of the pitch.

Senna is a no-mark compared to Redondo but he's clearly used as a pure holder (as I interpret the set-up and the tactics). And as such he'll do just fine. Senna as the pure DM, Schweinsteiger as the allrounder, Hässler as a hard working AND creative (and, not least, tactically impeccable) offensive/central midfielder with the ability to stretch the play out wide. And Baggio as a No 10 of sorts - one who is a huge goal threat. And then there's Ronaldo, who can simply do his usual thing in this set-up. And Rooney - leading the line and dropping deep (as he does naturally). I like it very much, I have to say.

That's basically how I see things, yeah.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think the front 3 will work fine. Yes, there will be overlaps in area they operate but the won't be tripping over each other. But then you need to instruct Rooney to stick up there and not drop deep to playmake.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The match will definitely not be representative of the vote I'm sure.

 

[NM]

Well this was awkward. I don't understand the voting or the logic behind it, so I'm going to concede defeat and take a long break from drafts.

Congrats to @NoPace -hope you win it all!

Thanks to @rpitroda for organizing and @Snow for being a top AM.

I'm retired. At least I'll always have my NextGen draft win

 

[RoadTrip]

Well this was awkward. I don't understand the voting or the logic behind it, so I'm going to concede defeat and take a long break from drafts.

Congrats to @NoPace -hope you win it all!

Thanks to @rpitroda for organizing and @Snow for being a top AM.

I'm retired. At least I'll always have my NextGen draft win

Thanks mate.

As for this game though, the votes should be closer but I'm not overly surprised. Even you must know that Neymar just doesn't fit this set up.

 

[NM]

Thanks mate.

As for this game though, the votes should be closer but I'm not overly surprised. Even you must know that Neymar just doesn't fit this set up.

I still think he could play it. The best players (and Neymar is a top player) find ways to play. I think the rest of my team was stronger too, but clearly the caf thought otherwise.

Good luck. I'll still vote, but I'm done with drafts for a bit. Time to cheer Nopace to a win

 

[Pat_Mustard]

How is a midfield with fecking Senna in it going to dominate anything? I wonder if Ronaldo name is swaying the votes here

That's a very dismissive comment about Senna to be fair. He was a very good player, and he Schweinsteiger is a respectable partnership.

I'm not sure if Ronaldo, Rooney & Baggio is a genius combination or a total clusterfeck. Anyone else having serious problems to see how that'll work? I could see them getting into each others way a lot, but somehow I also can see them being incredible on the counter and scoring some crazy goals.

I love it personally, in much the same way I loved the Ronaldo/Platini/Weah combination Aldo fielded in a recent draft. Although I'm imagining the No. 9 incarnation of Rooney who scored bucketloads of goals, and he only really played that way after Ronaldo had left Utd.

 

[NoPace]

Well this was awkward. I don't understand the voting or the logic behind it, so I'm going to concede defeat and take a long break from drafts.

Congrats to @NoPace -hope you win it all!

Thanks to @rpitroda for organizing and @Snow for being a top AM.

I'm retired. At least I'll always have my NextGen draft win

Thanks. I thought it would have been closer because Ballack-Redondo-Fabregas is so offensively scary as a trio.

Giggs fit in well too, providing width and cutbacks for Ballack and Cesc but Ljungberg-Neymar seem to have really wrecked your attack in people's view. A proper goalscorer up top was a must, it seems.

Arce-Ronaldo and the fact that I have Rooney-Ronaldo and this is a UTD board probably inflated things a bit, too.

 

[Moby]

This effectively means EDogen gets to add Giggs.

Jesus.

 

[Theon]

This effectively means EDogen gets to add Giggs.

Jesus.

Not sure he does. He has Keano as his outside the top 30 category.

Bale is in the never won a league title category, and Giggsy has won a few of them.

 

[Moby]

Not sure he does. He has Keano as his outside the top 30 category.

Bale is in the never won a league title category, and Giggsy has won a few of them.

Oh ok, I thought he had Giggs for the outside top 30 category which would have been a straight swap.

 

[NM]

I would get a DM/Fullback if I was nopace. Schweini with a proper CM means he wins it IMO.

 

[antohan]

I've absolutely no idea what is going on with nopace's formation. Should we call it a collapsed 4-2-3-1? Can understand the scoreline though as an aggregate of decisions, I like loads of things about NM/Snow but one side is clearly going to outscore the other 9 times out of 10. Maybe Neymar right and Higuaín as CF?

 

[antohan]

I would get a DM/Fullback if I was nopace. Schweini with a proper CM means he wins it IMO.

RB IMO, Senna is absolutely fine there and does the job required.

 

[PedroMendez]

I am genuinely surprised about that result

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I've absolutely no idea what is going on with nopace's formation. Should we call it a collapsed 4-2-3-1? Can understand the scoreline though as an aggregate of decisions, I like loads of things about NM/Snow but one side is clearly going to outscore the other 9 times out of 10. Maybe Neymar right and Higuaín as CF?

Aye, I viewed it as a kind of lop-sided 4-2-3-1, with Hassler operating a fair bit deeper than Ronaldo on average. I'm seeing Hassler playing a similar role to Di Maria for Real last season. It makes sense to me, but it looks bloody ugly on the formation graphic!

 

[antohan]

Aye, I viewed it as a kind of lop-sided 4-2-3-1, with Hassler operating a fair bit deeper than Ronaldo on average. I'm seeing Hassler playing a similar role to Di Maria for Real last season. It makes sense to me, but it looks bloody ugly on the formation graphic!

Lop-sided is an understatement, reminds me of a house getting the pillars knocked off on one side and collapsing onto that side.

I'm not at all convincced about Hassler's positioning either, almost makes it look like he is a 3rd CM and no, he wouldn't do a Di Maria type job IMO. I rate him highly though and just assume it means he starts deeper on average but looks too CMish there for my liking.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Lop-sided is an understatement, reminds me of a house getting the pillars knocked off on one side and collapsing onto that side.

I'm not at all convincced about Hassler's positioning either, almost makes it look like he is a 3rd CM and no, he wouldn't do a Di Maria type job IMO. I rate him highly though and just assume it means he starts deeper on average but looks too CMish there for my liking.

What do you think he lacks to do the Di Maria role? I'm no expert on Hassler but I remember him as a quick, fairly hard-working and technically brilliant player who could operate pretty effectively centrally and out wide.

 

[Moby]

Yeah I think the formation looks asymmetrical but makes sense. Agreed about Hassler being a bit to inside but you can get the idea.

Very harsh scoreline but Cristiano is no less than a demigod in these drafts at this point, so you really need something special to convince voters otherwise.

 

[PedroMendez]

One of my biggest concerns would be, that Baggio, Ronaldo and Rooney all play in the same area with the ball on their feet. I like Hessler as facilitator/passer, who links everything together, but he is an offensive, central midfielder. So he also might operate in this area.
NM/Snow would easily dominate the midfield. Whatever gameplan he is following, he´ll be able to enforce it.
Juanfran is a very very attacking fullback. On the one side I like that, because no player will get in his way, but the team seems to be really off-balance. Ronaldo and Baggio are not hard working. Hässler isnt really adding steal either. Juanfran excels going forward. Senna + Schweinsteiger is a good pairing, but they have a hell of a job to do.

NM/Snow´s front 3 are a bit dubious, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Ljunberg and Giggs are incredible versatile players. They can play out wide or play narrow. They can counterattack or play possession based football. Neymar is not ideal and needs a whole lot of explaining. Still considering the holes in NoPace´s defence, they will get chances.

NoPace has the bigger names and better individuals but in reality this team would be always on the verge of collapsing. I dont think he would get the best out or Ronaldo and Baggio.

 

[NoPace]

I've absolutely no idea what is going on with nopace's formation. Should we call it a collapsed 4-2-3-1? Can understand the scoreline though as an aggregate of decisions, I like loads of things about NM/Snow but one side is clearly going to outscore the other 9 times out of 10. Maybe Neymar right and Higuaín as CF?

It's just a 4-2-3-1 (Hassler and Ronaldo with very, very different roles and starting spots as the wider players in the 3, obviously) but I'm trying to indicate that my team isn't going to press too high; creating space behind for Baggio and Cristiano is too important.

 

[antohan]

What do you think he lacks to do the Di Maria role? I'm no expert on Hassler but I remember him as a quick, fairly hard-working and technically brilliant player who could operate pretty effectively centrally and out wide.

It's not whether he has attributes that would be consistent with it. It's like Giggs in midfield, a retirement plan, not what you expect peak Giggs or Thomas Hassler to be doing at all. If he is a midfielder that joins attacks providing width out right you may as well pick someone like Camoranesi instead.

Yeah I think the formation looks asymmetrical but makes sense. Agreed about Hassler being a bit to inside but you can get the idea.

Very harsh scoreline but Cristiano is no less than a demigod in these drafts at this point, so you really need something special to convince voters otherwise.

I do, I'm just messing about with the only relevant factor at this stage. Game's gone, rightly or not (would have liked to see Higuaín on and how he fared but the votes just piled up too quickly making it pointless).

Will that collapsed formation affect nopace in a future game? That's the only discussion worth having at this stage, unfortunately.

Is it hiding (or actually acknowledging) that all players operate rather centrally? Personally, I don't see it that way. If it's a pacey direct counter against an exposed defence in no man's land I'd expect those two to spearhead it. If you are countering against a solid core then you need to be more elaborate and Cristiano goes left, Hassler right... that's when you really go 4-2-3-1. I like "collapsed 4-2-3-1"... think of a puffer fish, that starting formation is the small deflated version (collapsed) then once the ball is recovered and the transition starts BOOM (inflate), they spread across the pitch and you are suddenly facing all that talent running at you. Scary.