Criteria Draft Round 1 - NoPace vs NM/Snow

[Pat_Mustard]

It's not whether he has attributes that would be consistent with it. It's like Giggs in midfield, a retirement plan, not what you expect peak Giggs or Thomas Hassler to be doing at all. If he is a midfielder that joins attacks providing width out right you may as well pick someone like Camoranesi instead.



I do, I'm just messing about with the only relevant factor at this stage. Game's gone, rightly or not (would have liked to see Higuaín on and how he fared but the votes just piled up too quickly making it pointless).

Will that collapsed formation affect nopace in a future game? That's the only discussion worth having at this stage, unfortunately.

Is it hiding (or actually acknowledging) that all players operate rather centrally? Personally, I don't see it that way. If it's a pacey direct counter against an exposed defence in no man's land I'd expect those two to spearhead it. If you are countering against a solid core then you need to be more elaborate and Cristiano goes left, Hassler right... that's when you really go 4-2-3-1. I like "collapsed 4-2-3-1"... think of a puffer fish, that starting formation is the small deflated version (collapsed) then once the ball is recovered and the transition starts BOOM (inflate), they spread across the pitch and you are suddenly facing all that talent running at you. Scary.

Good points all around. I like the puffer fish analogy!

 

[Moby]

It's not whether he has attributes that would be consistent with it. It's like Giggs in midfield, a retirement plan, not what you expect peak Giggs or Thomas Hassler to be doing at all. If he is a midfielder that joins attacks providing width out right you may as well pick someone like Camoranesi instead.



I do, I'm just messing about with the only relevant factor at this stage. Game's gone, rightly or not (would have liked to see Higuaín on and how he fared but the votes just piled up too quickly making it pointless).

Will that collapsed formation affect nopace in a future game? That's the only discussion worth having at this stage, unfortunately.

Is it hiding (or actually acknowledging) that all players operate rather centrally? Personally, I don't see it that way. If it's a pacey direct counter against an exposed defence in no man's land I'd expect those two to spearhead it. If you are countering against a solid core then you need to be more elaborate and Cristiano goes left, Hassler right... that's when you really go 4-2-3-1. I like "collapsed 4-2-3-1"... think of a puffer fish, that starting formation is the small deflated version (collapsed) then once the ball is recovered and the transition starts BOOM (inflate), they spread across the pitch and you are suddenly facing all that talent running at you. Scary.

One team I think which did that really well was Sacchi's Milan, compact and tight off the ball suffocating the opposition and then boom, spreading the wings in an instant. They did that with so much efficiency throughout the 90 minutes.

It's one of the reasons I regard Gullit so highly in that role. Can't think of many other players, if any who would make that strategy function so seamlessly. Certainly not Baggio.

 

[berbatrick]

It's not whether he has attributes that would be consistent with it. It's like Giggs in midfield, a retirement plan, not what you expect peak Giggs or Thomas Hassler to be doing at all. If he is a midfielder that joins attacks providing width out right you may as well pick someone like Camoranesi instead.



I do, I'm just messing about with the only relevant factor at this stage. Game's gone, rightly or not (would have liked to see Higuaín on and how he fared but the votes just piled up too quickly making it pointless).

Will that collapsed formation affect nopace in a future game? That's the only discussion worth having at this stage, unfortunately.

Is it hiding (or actually acknowledging) that all players operate rather centrally? Personally, I don't see it that way. If it's a pacey direct counter against an exposed defence in no man's land I'd expect those two to spearhead it. If you are countering against a solid core then you need to be more elaborate and Cristiano goes left, Hassler right... that's when you really go 4-2-3-1. I like "collapsed 4-2-3-1"... think of a puffer fish, that starting formation is the small deflated version (collapsed) then once the ball is recovered and the transition starts BOOM (inflate), they spread across the pitch and you are suddenly facing all that talent running at you. Scary.

The one similar formation I can think of is Brazil in 2010 under Dunga, where they too played a diamond/4-2-3-1 hybrid. Here, we have Cristian Ronaldo in the Robinho role and Hassler in Ramires' position. Bit of an upgrade

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/03/analysing-brazils-fluid-system-at-close-quarters/

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

With Redondo there, Fabregas may have been a overkill. You don't actually need 2 players controlling from the middle.

What would you think of a 4-1-3-2

-------Neymar - Higuain----------
--Giggs----Ballack---Ljungberg
------------Redondo----------------
--------------Back 4-----------------

Would have prevented some votes that went primarity because of Neymar in that role. Giggs/Neymar in that wing would be extremely potent and definitely some goals there.

Midfield is a tad light in physical presence, but then Fabregas does little to improve it. So go out on all attack and hope you can outscore him!

Not exactly optimal, but may have made some difference in voting!

 

[NoPace]

The one similar formation I can think of is Brazil in 2010 under Dunga, where they too played a diamond/4-2-3-1 hybrid. Here, we have Cristian Ronaldo in the Robinho role and Hassler in Ramires' position. Bit of an upgrade

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/03/analysing-brazils-fluid-system-at-close-quarters/

Yeah, once I drafted Ronaldo and Baggio, I was always thinking of how to get the best out of them, and Dunga's Brazil and the options Ancelotti, Pellegrini and Mourinho have used to deal with Cristiano's lack of tracking back were central in my thinking.

 

[NoPace]

With Redondo there, Fabregas may have been a overkill. You don't actually need 2 players controlling from the middle.

What would you think of a 4-1-3-2

-------Neymar - Higuain----------
--Giggs----Ballack---Ljungberg
------------Redondo----------------
--------------Back 4-----------------

Would have prevented some votes that went primarity because of Neymar in that role. Giggs/Neymar in that wing would be extremely potent and definitely some goals there.

Midfield is a tad light in physical presence, but then Fabregas does little to improve it. So go out on all attack and hope you can outscore him!

Not exactly optimal, but may have made some difference in voting!

I think his best option was throwing Higuain up front and stressing the fact that cutbacks to Ballack and Fabregas were his other primary source of goals.

----------Higuain-------
Giggs-------------------
-----Fabregas-Ballack-Ljungberg
----------Redondo-------------
-----------Back 4-------------

with Neymar coming on to run at tired defenders. I have Ljungberg deeper to emphasize that they'd try to deny Ronaldo the ball.

 

[antohan]

I think his best option was throwing Higuain up front and stressing the fact that cutbacks to Ballack and Fabregas were his other primary source of goals.

----------Higuain-------
Giggs-------------------
-----Fabregas-Ballack-Ljungberg
----------Redondo-------------
-----------Back 4-------------

with Neymar coming on to run at tired defenders. I have Ljungberg deeper to emphasize that they'd try to deny Ronaldo the ball.

feck that, just play Neymar out right, there's already enough people minding Ronaldo.

 

[Snow]

When I checked the score 6 hours into the draft it was 12-0 with few comments and the match wasn't on the front page even. Subbing on Higuain for Neymar wouldn't have mattered.

The midfield a defensive overkill? I thought the main point here was that the other team scored loads more. Taking that out surely would only make it worse.

Basically, the team we had on the pitch would be able to handle pressure and get the ball forward and to the flanks. NoPace's team is not going to defend against that simply because he's almost playing 4-2-4. He hasn't got the defenders. Senna and Schweinsteiger are neither a defensive miracle worker. They've always got company next to them to help them out so they'll not be leaving the midfield frequently to press Giggs or Ljungberg and leaving Fabregas alone.

Ronaldo vs Arce? Arce wins. Why? Ronaldo doesn't dribble past players. The problem with Ronaldo isn't 1v1. If you've got a positional sensible player near Ronaldo you can stop him if your team works well together. You can't do it completely because he's Ronaldo. At the bare minimum he's a threat from outside the box and in the air. Having Arce at right back definitely isn't a problem. I'd worry more about Arce vs Giggs. Ronaldo is a bigger threat to the CB's.

It feels like people have forgotten what Giggs was like. He's more unstoppable on this pitch than any other player and he's got Alaba to back him up. He's never had a left back as good as him behind him. Irwin wasn't this quick up and down the pitch or used to 1-2 quick passing. Who was he up against? A converted winger that's not higher rated as a defender than Arbeloa. Sure he was in a team that conceded little but that's because his team was set up that way. Put him in the United side last season instead of that Atlético side and he would have struggled.

Our team was built with quick players and players that are used to pass the ball quickly. I think the other side is getting votes based on things that aren't real. Rooney wouldn't fit in that side and he get's no flack for it meanwhile Neymar is slated for it despite being a more prolific goalscorer than Rooney at the same age for clubs and country. Rooney has 36 caps more and only 5 goals. The voters logic is to flawed and simply not thought out which is a shame. The names of the players often matter too much. Someone hates X and is therefor not going to vote for his team. I had already had that threat in this draft. In another draft my team didn't get votes because it had too many Chelsea players, defensive Chelsea players.

/Rant over

Congratz NoPace. I knew you had a good team. Not saying you didn't deserve the win. If NM or I had been able to take part in the match it might have been closer. Who knows. I for one really dislike the Baggio-Rooney combo in that side because of Rooney. I think a simpler player would do much better than Rooney.

The midfield is fine. Most of the back 4 is fine. Juanfran really isn't all that. You should get a more defensive minded right back like Carboni who's good at following his man and isn't easily beaten. Not much more to fine tune really. Just don't mess with Ronaldo, Baggio, Senna, Schweinsteiger or Silva and you'll be fine.

 

[antohan]

When I checked the score 6 hours into the draft it was 12-0 with few comments and the match wasn't on the front page even. Subbing on Higuain for Neymar wouldn't have mattered.

The midfield a defensive overkill? I thought the main point here was that the other team scored loads more. Taking that out surely would only make it worse.

Basically, the team we had on the pitch would be able to handle pressure and get the ball forward and to the flanks. NoPace's team is not going to defend against that simply because he's almost playing 4-2-4. He hasn't got the defenders. Senna and Schweinsteiger are neither a defensive miracle worker. They've always got company next to them to help them out so they'll not be leaving the midfield frequently to press Giggs or Ljungberg and leaving Fabregas alone.

Ronaldo vs Arce? Arce wins. Why? Ronaldo doesn't dribble past players. The problem with Ronaldo isn't 1v1. If you've got a positional sensible player near Ronaldo you can stop him if your team works well together. You can't do it completely because he's Ronaldo. At the bare minimum he's a threat from outside the box and in the air. Having Arce at right back definitely isn't a problem. I'd worry more about Arce vs Giggs. Ronaldo is a bigger threat to the CB's.

It feels like people have forgotten what Giggs was like. He's more unstoppable on this pitch than any other player and he's got Alaba to back him up. He's never had a left back as good as him behind him. Irwin wasn't this quick up and down the pitch or used to 1-2 quick passing. Who was he up against? A converted winger that's not higher rated as a defender than Arbeloa. Sure he was in a team that conceded little but that's because his team was set up that way. Put him in the United side last season instead of that Atlético side and he would have struggled.

Our team was built with quick players and players that are used to pass the ball quickly. I think the other side is getting votes based on things that aren't real. Rooney wouldn't fit in that side and he get's no flack for it meanwhile Neymar is slated for it despite being a more prolific goalscorer than Rooney at the same age for clubs and country. Rooney has 36 caps more and only 5 goals. The voters logic is to flawed and simply not thought out which is a shame. The names of the players often matter too much. Someone hates X and is therefor not going to vote for his team. I had already had that threat in this draft. In another draft my team didn't get votes because it had too many Chelsea players, defensive Chelsea players.

/Rant over

Congratz NoPace. I knew you had a good team. Not saying you didn't deserve the win. If NM or I had been able to take part in the match it might have been closer. Who knows. I for one really dislike the Baggio-Rooney combo in that side because of Rooney. I think a simpler player would do much better than Rooney.

The midfield is fine. Most of the back 4 is fine. Juanfran really isn't all that. You should get a more defensive minded right back like Carboni who's good at following his man and isn't easily beaten. Not much more to fine tune really. Just don't mess with Ronaldo, Baggio, Senna, Schweinsteiger or Silva and you'll be fine.

Some good points there, well made. It's a shame the votes tallied up so quickly because your perceived lack of goal threat was in the face of a vulnerable defence while you looked solid across the board. I certainly would have voted you if you started Higuaín and Neymar on the right or done that sub but eah, you were 15-3 or thereabouts when I logged on so just focused on puffer fish and such

I don't have any problem with Rooney there though, there could be better options, but nothing wrong with him IMO.