Criteria Draft Round 1 : rpitroda vs. EDogen

[Moby]

rpitroda's tactics

OVERALL STRATEGY


The team creates a midfield triangle, while having a perfect stopper/cover centre back pairing behind them. 2 fast, aggressive full backs, and 2 fast and tricky but also hard working wide attackers. A strong but technical target man up front.


Modern football has developed into a midfield 3 for a reason. It allows better control of the ball. When Guardiola/Seedorf/Deco have the ball, they will always have 2 options in the middle of the field alone, not to mention the wide options.


That in essence is the overall strategy of the team – keep the ball. Dictate possession. Use the plethora of technical quality on the field to carve out openings. Play off Kluivert.



HOW THE GAME IS WON


Please see below a list of reasons why I believe the game will by won by my team.


1. Guardiola. Guardiola is a brilliant defensive midfielder. He isn’t going to run you down, or push you off the ball. However, he is great positionally but most importantly, he’s a technician. He has a brilliant passing range and great control of the ball. The question is, who from Edogen’s team will be marking him? Neither Weah or Raul are the type to drop back into the hole and mark him. Guardiola will have a free reign over the game to control it.

2. A midfield 2 never beats a midfield 3, no matter how good. During Ferguson’s dream team which compromised of these players, it is VITAL to note that it was an era when ALL teams played 4-4-2. Keane and Scholes were simply the best of that era. The question is, would a 4-4-2 work against a modern set up? Keane and Scholes are as close as it gets but I still believe it doesn’t trump it. No matter how fast or powerful Keane is, he can’t win the ball back so easily because the player on the ball ALWAYS has an option due to the 3vs2. Keane is best when he’s let loose to do his job – in a 3vs2 he can’t do that because if he bursts forward to charge the ball down, you leave Scholes vs Deco and Seedorf.

3. Which Scholes is on show? A vital question, because you cannot have the pass master of his later years and the younger striker-come-midfielder who charged into the box late. The latter creates a defensive weakness in the side, while also lacking a midfielder to really cut open a defense. The former results in the lack of eneregy necessary to compete in a 4-4-2.

4. Nedved will run rings around Petrescu. Need I say any more? There is a massive mismatch here, Nedved will absolutely demolish Petrescu and furthermore, the lack of numbers in midfield mean that Petrescu can hope for very little support.

5. Gamarra/Ferdinand – a perfect combination. A true stopper/cover relationship. Ferdinand at his peak was fast, clever, and intelligent. This takes a big chunk of out one of Weah’s greatest strengths, his speed. Raul is a great, great player. But he was never fast. A wonderful technician, clever footballer, and brilliant movement. However Gamarra is notorious for being rapid into the tackle, and strong. He is perfect to take Raul out of the game, and with Ferdinand behind to cover, you couldn’t ask for many better.

6. The wings. This is a very very key area, because both teams contain energetic, technically gifted wing backs and wingers. However, I believe I edge it here for a few reasons. Firstly, Nedved is the best player there by a mile, and he is up against arguably the worst player out of the 8. Big mismatch. However, Beckham is a work horse, and so he could certainly influence that battle. But Clichy is a great attacking full back (his biggest strength) and if Beckham is preoccupied meddling with Nedved/Petrescu, then the midfield will be open for my 3 to expose and Clichy will be able to support. This creates strength on that flank in quality and numbers. When Edogen’s team attacks down the flank, Beckham (although brilliant) lacks pace, and Clichy will be able to keep up with him. Furthermore, Nedved is brilliant helping backwards too, so I believe the threat is very minimal on this flank. On the other side, Overmars is fast and direct. His advantage is much less clear cut with Evra there, however Evra’s strength was always going forward and so I believe Overmars trumps him there, although marginally. Zabaleta has proven himself against some of the best wingers, but with Evra and Bale there it’s one where it could pose a problem. Luckily, Overmars is also a hard worker, which will somewhat dampen the attack.

7. Wingers, not inside forwards for Edogen. It’s important to note with Bale on the left and Beckham on the right, he won’t have players who are cutting in from the flanks. They will play the traditional role of running the flank. Bale could cut in, as could Beckham, but neither are notorious in that way (Bale would be but only if on the right). This means if they pick up the ball, despite all their ability to whip a ball in, I believe I have the height and power advantage in the middle with Gamarra and Ferdinand. I don’t think Weah or Raul would be the ones to win in an ariel dual.

8. The Man Utd team committed men forward, is it that easy against this set up? When United played 4-4-2 with these players, they would storm up the pitch, all 6 (2 attackers, 4 midfielders). However, I don’t believe it’s as effective as it was in the day simply because the other team would have been playing 4-4-2 back then, and they themselves would have committed men forward. Again, Guardiola is key here. He patrols the loose balls outside the box and Gamarra and Ferdinand are likely to win the duals in the box. If Keane and Scholes burst forward to supplement the attack (as they used to), then yes, they can have a big big influence. I don’t deny that. But, more often then not it won’t lead to a goal (just like back in the day, not every attack led to a goal, most didn’t). And that was against 4-4-2’s. My team has Guardiola there too. But most importantly, if Scholes and Keane commit, no matter how box to box or energetic they are, They are never chasing the ball down once it is cleared. Because, I will have Nedved and Overmars breaking (two rapidly quick players), one of Deco and Seeforf will already be up there, and Kluivert too. Instantly I’ve created a 4vs4 situation and I woul dback my 4 attackers over his 4 defenders. The ball travels faster than the man, and although Keane was a terrior, he isn’t going to outrun the ball reaching Deco/Seedorf, and by the time he gets there it’ll be too late as they’ll have set off Overmars and Nedved. Then Keane isn’t catching anyone.

9. Kluivert is a perfect player to play off. Carvalho and Gallas is a pretty solid pairing, pace and power. However, I would question if either is strong enough to take Kluivert’s ariel strength out of the game.

10. The team doesn’t lack goals. I know it’s easy to look at the team and say, where are the goals coming from. But the team isn’t designed to have players who have massive goal scoring tallies who you can say “yes, he will score.” The game is won by a TACTICAL advantage over the opponent, by creating scenarios to outnumber the opponent, by having enough technical ability on show to carve out changes for those in advanced positions. If you said to me my team doesn’t have a lethal striker, I’d agree. However, you don’t always need a lethal striker to score goals.

TEAM RPITRODA

TEAM EDOGEN

 

[Moby]

EDogen's tactics

I am playing a classic 4-4-2 formation much like the United Treble winning side from 1999. The aim for my team is to play an attractive football with pace and goals.

Just to give a picture of how I have built the team, 99 treble team vs my team.

Schmeichel – Toldo

Neville & Irwin – Petrescu & Evra

Stam & Johnsen – Gallas & Carvalho

Beckham & Giggs – Beckham & Bale

Scholes & Keane – Scholes & Keane

Yorke & Cole – Raul & Weah


Goalie

In goal I have Fransesco Toldo a dominant keeper with great shot-stopping ability and a big presence at the back.


Defenders

My central defenders are Carvalho and Gallas, Carvalho who is highly underrated made other defenders around him better players and this new partnership will have a nice mix of tough tackling, speed and a great reading of the game. My fullbacks, Evra and Petrescu are both solid defenders that also have great ability in going forward. They will form a constant threat together with the wingers of my team.


Midfielders

Who remember that Manchester United treble winning midfield from 1999? Well here I have 3 out of 4 members at my disposal. From right I will line up with Beckham, Keane, Scholes and finally Bale. Bale is coming in and will fit the formation really well with his work rate and individual brilliance. This is a true great midfield that is proven at the very highest level.


Attackers

I see a lethal partnership taking form in Raul and Weah. They both played their best football when playing with another forward player. This time will be no different. They both play as forwards but Raul will have the instructions of playing as a second striker with Weah in front of him. Weah with his great ability to terrorize defenders will open up space for Raul who with just an extra yard will punish every team in front of him.


Defence: A rock solid back four in Evra – Carvalho – Gallas – Petrescu with Toldo as my anchor. They will also have support from a hard working midfield where Keane as my captain will dominate the game with tough tackling, aggression and passion. Bale and Beckham will help out my full backs and in the midfield battle as they have the stamina to run flag to flag for 120 minutes if needed. Keane and Scholes need two hard working wingers and they are very happy with having Bale and Becks with them. Also my forward players Raul and Weah will start the pressing.


Attack: I have defenders that are capable with the ball at their feet that will have no problems getting the ball forward for my midfield players. Evra and Petrescu will provide offensive runs overlapping the wingers. This will give Beckham that extra time to get that perfect cross in and will give Bale an extra yard to either take on the defender on his own or send a cross in with his great left foot. My wing play will be exciting to watch and with Rauls movement and Weah´s physical presence I see that resulting in goals.


In the middle I have the legendary midfield combo of Scholes and Keane and if you are going by a two man midfield this are the guys you would want in there. Captain Keane will take on every midfield battle and few where the times when he did not come out as the king of the battle. Scholes will enjoy the width of the team when crossing for Bale and Beckham as well as the option to find Weah in behind the opposition defence.


Weah and Raul will be a hard task for the opposition defenders in the box when pin point crosses are coming from Becks and Bale. But this is far from the only threat they are offering, they will link up well with the midfield in attacking plays from central positions. Weah with his running and ability to carry the ball will open up space for Raul to drift into. I see them terrorizing defences throughout this draft with their great all round play.


Finally some extra details that make me believe in my team.


Set pieces from Beckham – he will get chances since the acceleration of Bale and the physical bulldozing of Weah will be too much for the opposition without stopping them with fouls.


Long range passing from Beckham and Scholes for Weah and Bale.


Crossing from Beckham and Bale


Goals – All my midfielders and forwards has a good or very good amounts of goals in their careers.

 

[Moby]

@rpitroda @EDogen good luck fellas.

 

[EDogen]

Further comments and how I will handle Rpitrodas team.

First if we look at the keepers I have an advantage in that Toldo are the better keeper over Given and this has been an important factor in many games in history.

Taking out Guardiola - I will simply instruct Weah to start the first pressing with Raul dropping deep not allowing Guardiola much time on the ball.

Lack of goals in Rpits team - Only Kluivert has a good goal ratio and that will show in the game. Especielly since he has ordered Nedved and Overmars to help out his fullbacks bringing them further down the pitch and taking away some of the fresh legs for attacking purpose.

Midfield battle - With Rauls smartness Guardiola will not impact the game as much as he wants, and since Guardiola not will contribute much in the "battle" I have good faith in that Scholes and Keane will come up very well over Seedorf and Deco with little help from Guardiola.

Handling Nedved - Nedved really was a world class player I admit that and he has the advatage over Petrescu, for me Nedved is the biggest threat. Therefore Beckham who was great at helping out his full back will help out Petrescu to try and take Nedved out of the game.

My wings - In attack my wings will enjoy facing Zabaleta and Clichy. Bale will be a nightmare for Zabaleta and then Evra also is added to the mix. I will have the advatage here. Then Beckham with Petrescu in support against Clichy who was best at attacking, another victory for my wings. So I see both my wings enjoying the game and creating chances for Raul and Weah. Overall I see Bale and Beckham as bigger threats that Nedved and Overmars for his team.

Facing Gamarra and Ferdinand - A great duo but with my advantage on the wings against his full backs they will have a hard task leaving space for Raul and Weah to find. And with Beckham and Bale sending in the crosses they will find that space no mather how good the centre backs are.

 

[Moby]

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Look, Trippy I really don't like your tactics, I agree with some things, but some doesn't make sense. Seems to me you've been afraid of EDogen's team that you shot all around.
anyway, I like trippy's team better atm, but I'll wait for some developments

 

[sajeev]

@rpitroda is unlucky to get picked against @EDogen it is certainly not going to be as one-sided as the votes will tell. I actually think rpitroda will win since I don't rate Bale much, and don't see the goals from Weah/Raul. Although it is really tough going against Scholes/Keane partnership, I think Guardiola-Seedorf-Deco will win the midfield battle.

I might have voted the other way if @EDogen managed to get Giggs too

 

[RoadTrip]

Look, Trippy I really don't like your tactics, I agree with some things, but some doesn't make sense. Seems to me you've been afraid of EDogen's team that you shot all around.
anyway, I like trippy's team better atm, but I'll wait for some developments

I haven't "shot all around" - just highlighting why their are many areas where this team excels. I had to make my points because 100% of scan votes will go to EDogen.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Good write ups from both managers. I do take issue with this though from Trippy:

A midfield 2 never beats a midfield 3, no matter how good. During Ferguson’s dream team which compromised of these players, it is VITAL to note that it was an era when ALL teams played 4-4-2. Keane and Scholes were simply the best of that era. The question is, would a 4-4-2 work against a modern set up? Keane and Scholes are as close as it gets but I still believe it doesn’t trump it. No matter how fast or powerful Keane is, he can’t win the ball back so easily because the player on the ball ALWAYS has an option due to the 3vs2. Keane is best when he’s let loose to do his job – in a 3vs2 he can’t do that because if he bursts forward to charge the ball down, you leave Scholes vs Deco and Seedorf.

This is a huge over-simplication imo. The great Juventus team that utd beat over two legs in '99 lined up with a midfield containing Deschamps, Davids and Zidane, with Conte out wide iirc. There absolutely were three man midfields around back then. Utd could compete not just due to their quality in midfield and overall goal threat, but because a 4-4-2 is rarely as simple and rigid as its depicted. Fergie has said before that he almost always played with one striker dropping deep to make up the numbers when necessary, and at least one wiger can tuck in while the other stretches the play.

 

[RoadTrip]

Further comments and how I will handle Rpitrodas team.

First if we look at the keepers I have an advantage in that Toldo are the better keeper over Given and this has been an important factor in many games in history.

Taking out Guardiola - I will simply instruct Weah to start the first pressing with Raul dropping deep not allowing Guardiola much time on the ball.

I don't think it's that simple, is it? I will just instruct Deco to mark Keane, and that'll limit his influence (note: not being serious, just making a point). Saying you'll get a player to do something won't necessarily mean they can do it effectively. Weah is not renowned for being a defensive forward, like a Kempes or a Rooney for example. Neither is Raul. They won't effectively stop Guardiola dictating the game. Otherwise, there would be no room for any players like Pirlo or Alonso, but there are.

Lack of goals in Rpits team -

Only Kluivert has a good goal ratio and that will show in the game. Especielly since he has ordered Nedved and Overmars to help out his fullbacks bringing them further down the pitch and taking away some of the fresh legs for attacking purpose.

Likewise, if Nedved and Overmars are "tired" then so will Beckham and Bale be tired. But the fact is they won't. Both players did this there whole careers, going up and down, and were still effective. People overstate goal to game ratio's - just because someone doesn't score goals for fun in every game in their career doesn't mean in certain games they don't. In the right tactical situation, they can all score goals effectively, and that includes my front 5.

Midfield battle

- With Rauls smartness Guardiola will not impact the game as much as he wants, and since Guardiola not will contribute much in the "battle" I have good faith in that Scholes and Keane will come up very well over Seedorf and Deco with little help from Guardiola.

I don't understand this. Raul will not remove Guardiola. So whether Keane and Scholes are superior to Deco and Seedorf (which they are ofc) is irrelevent. I do however think you're writing off Deco and Seedorf as some crappy midfielders. They were themselves world class players, let's not forget that.

Handling Nedved

- Nedved really was a world class player I admit that and he has the advatage over Petrescu, for me Nedved is the biggest threat. Therefore Beckham who was great at helping out his full back will help out Petrescu to try and take Nedved out of the game.

Disagree, not much more to say. No way that Beckham and Petrescu can single handedly handle Nedved, who will have Clichy there too.

My wings

- In attack my wings will enjoy facing Zabaleta and Clichy. Bale will be a nightmare for Zabaleta and then Evra also is added to the mix. I will have the advatage here. Then Beckham with Petrescu in support against Clichy who was best at attacking, another victory for my wings. So I see both my wings enjoying the game and creating chances for Raul and Weah. Overall I see Bale and Beckham as bigger threats that Nedved and Overmars for his team.

Sorry but this is just wrong. Zabaleta has proven himself against some of the best wingers in the world, and contributes to both phases. Clichy, while defensively not so good, at least has Nedved to support on some level. And key point being, Beckham isn't going to run past Clichy. Beckham will play a cross or a pass. Therefore Clichy isn't a big issue as Beckham isn't going to run past him and play a deadly ball or score. He'll cross from deep, where Gamarra and Ferdinand's ariel prowess will come to the fore. Also on the other flank, I don't know where you get the idea that Bale is a massive work horse... he isn't. He has energy but he isn't exactly known for his defensive application. Zabaleta can handle Bale too, especially with Overmars. I think both sides will get chances from the right because Zabaleta + Overmars is too much for Bale and Evra, and likewise Bale and Evra is too much for Overmars and Zabaleta. But i wholeheartedly don't buy this idea of "the wings are mine".

Facing Gamarra and Ferdinand -

A great duo but with my advantage on the wings against his full backs they will have a hard task leaving space for Raul and Weah to find. And with Beckham and Bale sending in the crosses they will find that space no mather how good the centre backs are.

As explained above, you don't have a big advantage on the wings, you don't have any advantage imo. Also, that just simply isn't true either. Weah is not known for his amazing ariel ability, or isn't exactly a fox in the box like RVN. Raul is, and yes I appreciate he's a master of it. But Ferdinand and Gamarra can handle it IMO.

 

[EDogen]

This is a huge over-simplication imo. The great Juventus team that utd beat over two legs in '99 lined up with a midfield containing Deschamps, Davids and Zidane, with Conte out wide iirc. There absolutely were three man midfields around back then. Utd could compete not just due to their quality in midfield and overall goal threat, but because a 4-4-2 is rarely as simple and rigid as its depicted. Fergie has said before that he almost always played with one striker dropping deep to make up the numbers when necessary, and at least one wiger can tuck in while the other stretches the play.

Agree, and in Raul I have a perfect fit for dropping deep. And both Bale and especially Beckham are suited to tuck inside when needed.

 

[RoadTrip]

Good write ups from both managers. I do take issue with this though from Trippy:

This is a huge over-simplication imo. The great Juventus team that utd beat over two legs in '99 lined up with a midfield containing Deschamps, Davids and Zidane, with Conte out wide iirc. There absolutely were three man midfields around back then. Utd could compete not just due to their quality in midfield and overall goal threat, but because a 4-4-2 is rarely as simple and rigid as its depicted. Fergie has said before that he almost always played with one striker dropping deep to make up the numbers when necessary, and at least one wiger can tuck in while the other stretches the play.

And I agree to a certain extent. However, Ferguson has always had players who fit that system. I completely believe that Raul and Weah do not complement a 4-4-2.

Also, that Juve analysis is slightly lopsided. Zidane is not notorious for his defensive work, he would be a bystander in that battle. It's a very different midfield 3 than I'm playing.

You can't however tell me that 3 in midfield was common then, because it wasn't.

And just speaking on that Juve game, United were awful close to losing that, don't forget...

 

[RoadTrip]

Agree, and in Raul I have a perfect fit for dropping deep. And both Bale and especially Beckham are suited to tuck inside when needed.

Come on... Beckham yes, but Bale?

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I haven't "shot all around" - just highlighting why their are many areas where this team excels. I had to make my points because 100% of scan votes will go to EDogen.

So let me just say which points I disagree with:
Raul and Weah to get shut down by Ferdinand-Gammara, yes they are a superb pairing but I think you are really underrating the influence of playing two strikers because it rarely happens in these drafts. Raul is incredibly smart in his movement and build up play, so I don't think it will be a walk in the park.
The whole Guardiola freedom, I don't think he'll be too troubled with it, but Raul can do a certain job on him. Guardiola won't walk around the pitch freely, that's why I think EDogen is playing something like 4-4-1-1 and not 4-4-2.
Kluivert's being perfect for you, the hell he is. Kluivert is a really smart striker and great scorer but if Gammara can cancel out Raul I think Carvalho can do the same on Kluivert.
I don't like the point against Scholes with early Scholes and later Scholes, it comes up every draft against him and it's not fair, it's not like the younger one couldn't be instructed to go deep and start attacks from there. The skills were there he just wasn't instructed to do that back than imo.


What I do agree? Nedved will be awesome here, your midfield might control the match because it is one man up, Guardiola will have freedom(not as much as you think but enough) to control possession. Rio on Weah, wing battles.

 

[EDogen]

I must go back to work for a couple of hours so will check in later. May the best team win!

 

[RoadTrip]

So let me just say which points I disagree with:
Raul and Weah to get shut down by Ferdinand-Gammara, yes they are a superb pairing but I think you are really underrating the influence of playing two strikers because it rarely happens in these drafts. Raul is incredibly smart in his movement and build up play, so I don't think it will be a walk in the park.
The whole Guardiola freedom, I don't think he'll be too troubled with it, but Raul can do a certain job on him. Guardiola won't walk around the pitch freely, that's why I think EDogen is playing something like 4-4-1-1 and not 4-4-2.
Kluivert's being perfect for you, the hell he is. Kluivert is a really smart striker and great scorer but if Gammara can cancel out Raul I think Carvalho can do the same on Kluivert.
I don't like the point against Scholes with early Scholes and later Scholes, it comes up every draft against him and it's not fair, it's not like the younger one couldn't be instructed to go deep and start attacks from there. The skills were there he just wasn't instructed to do that back than imo.


What I do agree? Nedved will be awesome here, your midfield might control the match because it is one man up, Guardiola will have freedom(not as much as you think but enough) to control possession. Rio on Weah, wing battles.

1. You're misunderstanding me re: Raul and Weah. I'm speaking solely of the crosses into the box. Is Weah known for being a great ariel battler or a fox in the box? No he isn't. I don't think he will score from a cross. That leaves Raul, who certainly is very strong there. No, my defence cant completely stop him, but I have a great pairing to do it. And Weah offers nothing from crosses in that regard.

2. You have to take comments with a little bit of a pinch of salt. Obviously Guardiola isn't going to be skipping around by himself as if he was invisible. But if you really think Raul can eliminate him, then fair enough, I don't know what to say to that because to me that's outrageous. You talk about players not getting recognition, but you're talking about Guardiola as if he is Tom Huddlestone. Just like Raul can easily slip away from a defender, Guardiola isn't stupid to just let Raul come and mark him out.

3. Kluivert is big, strong, and notorious for his hold up play, heading ability, and great snap intelligent technique. Raul is a fox in the box, great linker of play, intelligent passer, and also strong in the air. The difference here is, Gamarra is better in the air than Carvalho, so it isn't the same. Also Kluivert is better in the air that Raul. Saying Kluivert = Raul, and Carvalho = Gamarra, is completely wrong.

4. You're making a big assumption re: Scholes that just because he could do it at 35 meant he could do it at 20. If you want to do that, fair enough. But even if he could, I have pointed out weaknesses about having a bombing forward Scholes and a deep lying Scholes. He might have been able to play both, but you certainly can't play both roles at the same time. EDogen has to choose which one, both of which poses a weakness.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

1. You're misunderstanding me re: Raul and Weah. I'm speaking solely of the crosses into the box. Is Weah known for being a great ariel battler or a fox in the box? No he isn't. I don't think he will score from a cross. That leaves Raul, who certainly is very strong there. No, my defence cant completely stop him, but I have a great pairing to do it. And Weah offers nothing from crosses in that regard.

2. You have to take comments with a little bit of a pinch of salt. Obviously Guardiola isn't going to be skipping around by himself as if he was invisible. But if you really think Raul can eliminate him, then fair enough, I don't know what to say to that because to me that's outrageous. You talk about players not getting recognition, but you're talking about Guardiola as if he is Tom Huddlestone. Just like Raul can easily slip away from a defender, Guardiola isn't stupid to just let Raul come and mark him out.

3. Kluivert is big, strong, and notorious for his hold up play, heading ability, and great snap intelligent technique. Raul is a fox in the box, great linker of play, intelligent passer, and also strong in the air. The difference here is, Gamarra is better in the air than Carvalho, so it isn't the same. Also Kluivert is better in the air that Raul. Saying Kluivert = Raul, and Carvalho = Gamarra, is completely wrong.

4. You're making a big assumption re: Scholes that just because he could do it at 35 meant he could do it at 20. If you want to do that, fair enough. But even if he could, I have pointed out weaknesses about having a bombing forward Scholes and a deep lying Scholes. He might have been able to play both, but you certainly can't play both roles at the same time. EDogen has to choose which one, both of which poses a weakness.

1.okay, if it's a question of talking about crosses only, fair enough, but if it's about overall play like I understood than Raul won't be closed down completely.

2. You need to calm down and read my comments again, I said that Raul can do a certain job on Guardiola but that won't stop Guardiola from controlling the match, if I haven't explained that well enough I'm sorry.

3.kluivert is everything you said, and I haven't tried to make any comparisons between him and Raul or Gammara with Carvalho, I'm just saying, probably because I didn't understand earlier what you meant about Gammara's job on Raul, that Carvalho with Gallas against Kluivert really limits your goals. I really agree with your point about wingers who don't pop goals on a daily basis doesn't mean they aren't goalscorers, but it will still make it much harder for you to break the deadlock, and that's the only reason I'm not sure if I'll vote for you.

4.yeah of course he has to choose either role, but I think early Scholes can do a latter years Scholes' role to some extent, even if he drives forward, he can start some attacks from deep. I'm just lashing out some frustration on how people approach a match against Scholes, and you're not doing it but some voters do, they say "if Scholes is forward like the younger one than no one will start attacks from deep". That's nonsense and I hate when people do it

 

[harms]

I, personally, have a problem with Raul - Weah pairing in 4-4-2 with the traditional wingers, which Beckham and Bale (here) certainly are. @rpitroda makes a good point about the lack of aerial threat in the box when crosses are a crucial part of the classic 4-4-2 system. I think that both teams would benefit from changing the strikers here.

Guardiola could've been a weak link but, instead, he is a match-winner for me here. Raul wouldn't close him, no way - and he will provide numerical advantage in midfield.

Some strange write-up from rpitroda though, what's with all of "4-4-2 were used only versus another 4-4-2"?

Edit: voted against Scholes and Cantona in the next match, feeling really bad now

 

[bishblaize]

Good write ups from both managers. I do take issue with this though from Trippy:



This is a huge over-simplication imo. The great Juventus team that utd beat over two legs in '99 lined up with a midfield containing Deschamps, Davids and Zidane, with Conte out wide iirc. There absolutely were three man midfields around back then. Utd could compete not just due to their quality in midfield and overall goal threat, but because a 4-4-2 is rarely as simple and rigid as its depicted. Fergie has said before that he almost always played with one striker dropping deep to make up the numbers when necessary, and at least one wiger can tuck in while the other stretches the play.

Indeed, in that game vs Juve at home SAF makes the point in his book that the reason Utd got so shafted in the first half at home is because Giggs and Beckham were both pouring forward at the same time, leaving Keane and Scholes outnumbered 3v2. However as soon as he got the message across that they had to take turns, with the other tucking in to support Scholes & Keane, they matched Juve for the second half, and memorably dominated them in the second leg (albeit with the help of one of the greatest ever performances by Keane)

 

[RoadTrip]

1.okay, if it's a question of talking about crosses only, fair enough, but if it's about overall play like I understood than Raul won't be closed down completely.

2. You need to calm down and read my comments again, I said that Raul can do a certain job on Guardiola but that won't stop Guardiola from controlling the match, if I haven't explained that well enough I'm sorry.

3.kluivert is everything you said, and I haven't tried to make any comparisons between him and Raul or Gammara with Carvalho, I'm just saying, probably because I didn't understand earlier what you meant about Gammara's job on Raul, that Carvalho with Gallas against Kluivert really limits your goals. I really agree with your point about wingers who don't pop goals on a daily basis doesn't mean they aren't goalscorers, but it will still make it much harder for you to break the deadlock, and that's the only reason I'm not sure if I'll vote for you.

4.yeah of course he has to choose either role, but I think early Scholes can do a latter years Scholes' role to some extent, even if he drives forward, he can start some attacks from deep. I'm just lashing out some frustration on how people approach a match against Scholes, and you're not doing it but some voters do, they say "if Scholes is forward like the younger one than no one will start attacks from deep". That's nonsense and I hate when people do it

Apologies if I came across as aggressive. Not my intention at all buddy.

I understand the points you're making just not sure I agree on them all. All valid though, don't think anything there is outrageous to be fair.

 

[RoadTrip]

Indeed, in that game vs Juve at home SAF makes the point in his book that the reason Utd got so shafted in the first half at home is because Giggs and Beckham were both pouring forward at the same time, leaving Keane and Scholes outnumbered 3v2. However as soon as he got the message across that they had to take turns, with the other tucking in to support Scholes & Keane, they matched Juve for the second half, and memorably dominated them in the second leg (albeit with the help of one of the greatest ever performances by Keane)

I would agree with this, however in this match EDogen isn't saying one will cover the other. He's talking about them all attacking.

 

[Gio]

I think the 3-man v 2-man midfield idea is getting overplayed. Raul would naturally drop in next to Guardiola to form a 4-4-1-1 (he did that often enough, as well as being the link in the 3-4-1-2 for Real) while there is plenty of graft coming from wide areas as well.

 

[FromTheBench]

I think Rpitroda has the slight tactical edge, but Edogen has more individual quality on average.

Have to go with Edogen here as even though Bale is the weak link in the context of this draft given his peak being smaller and him here being played in a limiting role.

Rpitroda's team just lacks bit of defensive protection and graft in midfield (Guardiola was great on the ball but lacking in this area) and i can see Beckham + Petrescu working very well and giving Clichy loads of problems. Especially if Nedved tucks in to make it almost a diamond.

 

[Thisistheone]

Yeah, i think the Utd sides of thr 1990's being labelled as 442 is a bit misleading as we always had the no.10 dropping in between the lines. McClair, Cantona, Yorke, Sheringham etc. I think Raul is the most important player for EDogen here in as much as he can drop in as well as score. Weah won't score a ton of goals so this is important.

I really like trippy's set up though. Nedved and Overmars linking up with KLuivert would work brilliantly imo. Would be a classic this one.

 

[mazhar13]

Both teams look really good here, and I'm happy with how both have turned out.

@EDogen
I really love your attacking approach with this team, and the players you have for your team fit this attacking approach. In such a setup, a back 5 has to be strong on its own and be able to defend well without the support from the midfield. In your team, your back 5 work very well as a unit itself, but you do have a weak point in Gallas who's prone to getting caught out and somewhat vulnerable when defending without support from the midfield. If @rpitroda can convince me that he can exploit this weakness, then my vote may swing over to him.

However, your team is perfectly set up to score 1 more than the opponents. Even with 2 midfielders, you can still make it a tough match for Trippy. Keane and Scholes had the energy to cover lots of ground and operate in large areas of the pitch. Carvalho and Gallas are both decent on the ball and can offer support to Keane and Scholes in the buildup of play. Raul and Weah and also drop off and become the link between the midfield and attack. Bale and Beckham are both adept at cutting into spaces in between with your full backs both very good going forward, though Zabaleta is defensively strong and will make it difficult for Bale. All in all, you have a very fluid setup (as long as you maintain the notion that this team is like the 1998/99 Man. Utd. team). Scholes is also a deadly weapon for you in that he's great at popping into the box when Ferdinand and Gamarra are occupied by the two forwards and Guardiola's looking out for the delivery into the box. The dynamism in your team may push back Seedorf and Guardiola, and it could allow Scholes to spray his passes and stretch Trippy's team.

As I said earlier, though, your defence will be frequently left exposed, and they'll have to be at their best to handle what's in front of them, which is a very good attack in itself. As long as you can convince me that you can score 1 more than your opponent and exploit the weak points in Clichy and Given along with how you'll deal with Gallas being your weak point, I may vote for you.

@rpitroda
Your team's very well-balanced, and I'm very happy with how you've set it up. You've done a good job in bringing the best out of all of your players, even those who aren't that good (Clichy, Given). Your midfield 3 is very nice as well. Guardiola's a very good holding midfielder who had a good passing range and reading of the game. However, I don't know how he can fare with the movement around him given that he isn't really a very dynamic defensive midfielder. Seedorf is also a very good playmaker himself who had great positioning in midfield and was tough to close down. He's a great partner to Guardiola and will help in relieving some pressure from him. Going forward, Seedorf is also dangerous, and he'll be key in dismantling the Keane-Scholes midfield with his movement and playmaking abilities. Deco is a very good attacking midfielder with quickness, flair, and vision. He will allow for Kluivert, Nedved, and Overmars to get many goalscoring opportunities.

Your wide players were great when they played, and they are wise picks by you. Both Nedved and Overmars were dangerous both out wide and through the middle. Overmars was also a decent goalscoring winger himself, racking up some good numbers during his time at Arsenal, though he did it from the left side. I'd like you to convince me that he can do as well on the right side as he did on the left side. As of now, I believe Overmars will be contained by Evra, and this is where Clichy will be key for you as he's very good going forward. I don't need to say much about Nedved, who was one of the best wingers in the world when he was around. His left foot will be very useful out wide and in the middle. He and Zabaleta will work very well together.

I believe your team can take advantage of Gallas being the weak point in EDogen's defence, but I'd like to know how you'd plan to do that as I believe you probably have a plan set in place for this. Carvalho will be tough to get past, though, IMO, and Toldo himself is a great shot-stopper who could win matches by himself. Plus, Keane and Scholes have done well against midfield 3's, so I wouldn't be quick to say that you'll easily win the midfield battle though you do have an advantage.

So far, it's even for me. Trippy has a great defensive setup, but I still think he's prone to conceding 2, maybe 3 goals due to Clichy, Given, and EDogen's attacking setup. However, Trippy's team can also score several goals as his opponent's defence won't have much protection from his midfield 2, especially since Gallas is in defence.

EDIT: So far, it's 7-5 to EDogen. So far, it's playing into EDogen's hands with his "you score 3, I'll score 4" approach.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

And I agree to a certain extent. However, Ferguson has always had players who fit that system. I completely believe that Raul and Weah do not complement a 4-4-2.

Also, that Juve analysis is slightly lopsided. Zidane is not notorious for his defensive work, he would be a bystander in that battle. It's a very different midfield 3 than I'm playing.

You can't however tell me that 3 in midfield was common then, because it wasn't.

And just speaking on that Juve game, United were awful close to losing that, don't forget...

True, but they were up against absolutely top class midfielders in Davids and Zidane, and an excellent supporting cast in Deschamps and the hard-working pair of Conte and Di Livio out wide. Deschamps/Davids/Zidane is even better than the three you've assembled. Again, I don't think 3 man midfields were particularly uncommon back then. I just looked up Bayern's line up vs us in the group stages of the CL the year we won it, and in both games they had Strunz, Jermeies and Effenberg in midfield, with Matthaus as a sweeper.

I'm slightly on the fence regarding the Raul/Weah partnership - there's something about it that doesn't sit completely right with me even though I can't put my finger on it. I don't really agree about Weah's lack of threat in the air. He was a menace from crosses, albeit similar to Kliuvert in not being incredibly prolific overall. There's a few great leaps in here:


Bale on the left wing is the main reservation I have about Edogen's set-up, as I think his productivity only really started to explode when he moved central or to the right wing. I'd fancy Kliuvert to cause probelms vs Carvalho and Gallas too.

 

[EDogen]

Home from work, going for football training but some quick comments.

Attackers
I see a lethal partnership taking form in Raul and Weah. They both played their best football when playing with another forward player. This time will be no different. They both play as forwards but Raul will have the instructions of playing as a second striker with Weah in front of him. Weah with his great ability to terrorize defenders will open up space for Raul who with just an extra yard will punish every team in front of him.

My 4-4-2 could also be a 4-4-1-1 if you like to play with numbers but thought that was quite clear when I stated the above that Raul will drop deeper as a second striker. This also means he would not let Guardiola boss the game as he wants.

No aerial threat from my attackers? Rauls movement in the box was deadly and Weah could finish off crosses for sure.

It was pointed out that Gallas is my weak point in defence (@mazhar13) and sure he is not the best defender in the draft but he also has Carvalho with him against one striker so with the combination of Gallas and Carvalho I feel that I can handle Kluivert.

Still think that Carvalho and Gallas will handle Kluivert better than Ferdinand and Gamarra will handle Weah and Raul. People not used to taking two forward players into their thoughts nowadays.

Once again, Beckham and Petrescu (who was great at going forward) will create against Clichy. Beckham loved having a full back running the side giving him extra time to find the cross.

A lot of negative regarding Bale as expected, will be interesting to see how other recent players are judged in this draft. But on Bale, just watch below what damage he can do from a position on the left wing.


And when I get a counter attack.

 

[Isotope]

Did A. Madrid do a lot of crosses with their 4-4-2 system?

 

[Moby]

@rpitroda is unlucky to get picked against @EDogen it is certainly not going to be as one-sided as the votes will tell. I actually think rpitroda will win since I don't rate Bale much, and don't see the goals from Weah/Raul. Although it is really tough going against Scholes/Keane partnership, I think Guardiola-Seedorf-Deco will win the midfield battle.

I might have voted the other way if @EDogen managed to get Giggs too

That seems to be the plan. If he wins and Giggs gets knocked out in his game, god save the rest of us managers.

 

[Snow]

1. You're misunderstanding me re: Raul and Weah. I'm speaking solely of the crosses into the box. Is Weah known for being a great ariel battler or a fox in the box? No he isn't. I don't think he will score from a cross. That leaves Raul, who certainly is very strong there. No, my defence cant completely stop him, but I have a great pairing to do it. And Weah offers nothing from crosses in that regard.

2. You have to take comments with a little bit of a pinch of salt. Obviously Guardiola isn't going to be skipping around by himself as if he was invisible. But if you really think Raul can eliminate him, then fair enough, I don't know what to say to that because to me that's outrageous. You talk about players not getting recognition, but you're talking about Guardiola as if he is Tom Huddlestone. Just like Raul can easily slip away from a defender, Guardiola isn't stupid to just let Raul come and mark him out.

3. Kluivert is big, strong, and notorious for his hold up play, heading ability, and great snap intelligent technique. Raul is a fox in the box, great linker of play, intelligent passer, and also strong in the air. The difference here is, Gamarra is better in the air than Carvalho, so it isn't the same. Also Kluivert is better in the air that Raul. Saying Kluivert = Raul, and Carvalho = Gamarra, is completely wrong.

4. You're making a big assumption re: Scholes that just because he could do it at 35 meant he could do it at 20. If you want to do that, fair enough. But even if he could, I have pointed out weaknesses about having a bombing forward Scholes and a deep lying Scholes. He might have been able to play both, but you certainly can't play both roles at the same time. EDogen has to choose which one, both of which poses a weakness.

I think you're making too many assumptions that all crosses lead to headed balls. I'd argue that it's more often than not drilled, low crosses that result in goals. Players cutting back or running behind the defender at the right moment. Devastating in these drafts where you've got the best goalscorers and the best wingers/crossers.

I see many goals in this game. I don't think the defensive cohesiveness of the teams is good enough to stop goals. I think both teams will have trouble winning the ball off the other team. With Beckham's and Scholes's passing and Raúl's and Bale's movement I think Edogen will be a constant threat on the counter but I also see his left side being exposed quite a lot.

 

[NoPace]

Both teams concede, for sure.

I think Rpitroda's team would control much of the play with the extra man in midfield, but I wouldn't trust Given at all against a team clearly intent on getting crosses into the box.

Overmars seems like a bad matchup for Evra. On the other side, I think Clichy coming upfield to pressure Beckham should leave space behind for Raul, who would fancy beating Gamarra in that space, cutting on to his left.

I voted for Edogen. I think he can put enough pressure on the defensively questionable trio of Given-Clichy-Guardiola to overcome the fact that Trip has the more balanced side.

I see this one as sort of similar to that Chelsea-Napoli contest a few seasons back where Napoli were better at football but Chelsea figured out they could bully them and cause problems aerially with some fairly hideous football and Napoli didn't have the strength to resist.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'm leaning towards trippy here.

Nedved - Clichy totally out performs Beckham - Petrescu. Add Deco in that side, it will be a clear advantage for trippy. Keane or Gallas needs to have one eye always there to pitch in and that just might influence the fluidity of the team. Seedorf on Scholes should be OK, but the creativity is on trippys side imo.

 

[BorisDeLeFora]

I'm leaning towards trippy here.

Nedved - Clichy totally out performs Beckham - Petrescu. Add Deco in that side, it will be a clear advantage for trippy. Keane or Gallas needs to have one eye always there to pitch in and that just might influence the fluidity of the team. Seedorf on Scholes should be OK, but the creativity is on trippys side imo.

I tend to agree with this. I think there are times also that Beckham is forced to tuck in, leaving an out ball to Nedved in 1 v 1 positions with Clichy bombing past him before Beckham has the chance to recover. Also, Gallas gives up at least one decent chance.

 

[NoPace]

I tend to agree with this. I think there are times also that Beckham is forced to tuck in, leaving an out ball to Nedved in 1 v 1 positions with Clichy bombing past him before Beckham has the chance to recover. Also, Gallas gives up at least one decent chance.

Clichy wouldn't scare me at all as an opposing manager. He and Given are a level below anyone else on the pitch, for me.

Petrescu was a really good player. He wouldn't be fighting it out with Kolarov.

 

[NM]

Tight one here!!

 

[NM]

I almost feel dirty for voting @EDogen , but I can never vote against the midfield he has. He will win it all if he wins this and picks well IMO. @rpitroda has put together a top team here too. Just an unlucky draw..

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Clichy wouldn't scare me at all as an opposing manager. He and Given are a level below anyone else on the pitch, for me.

Petrescu was a really good player. He wouldn't be fighting it out with Kolarov.

It's not Clichy vs Petrescu here. It's Nedved who will cause trouble. Clichy will just add to it. Support from Beckham will be asking too much esp if he is asked to cut in often too.

I think Keane and Gallas will be part timing to hold that flank and with Deco there too it will affect rest if Edogen game.

 

[BorisDeLeFora]

Clichy wouldn't scare me at all as an opposing manager. He and Given are a level below anyone else on the pitch, for me.

Petrescu was a really good player. He wouldn't be fighting it out with Kolarov.

I know, but in the sense that it makes it easier for Nedved to cut inside with an overlapping player. Now obviously you could just tell Petrescu to let Clichy have the ball, but eventually a cross or cut back would connect.

 

[Gio]

I'm leaning towards trippy here.

Nedved - Clichy totally out performs Beckham - Petrescu. Add Deco in that side, it will be a clear advantage for trippy. Keane or Gallas needs to have one eye always there to pitch in and that just might influence the fluidity of the team. Seedorf on Scholes should be OK, but the creativity is on trippys side imo.

While Nedved's got a higher peak than Beckham, Petrescu is a couple of levels above Clichy in the full-back stakes.

 

[mazhar13]

I must say, it's difficult for me to decide on the winner. Whilst @rpitroda has a more balanced setup, @EDogen has a stronger, more dynamic attack that can allow him to score more goals than his opponent.

With regards to EDogen's response to my point about Gallas, that would leave Deco free then, no? I mean, with your attacking approach, you're leaving dangerous spaces between the midfield and attack for Deco/Seedorf to capitalise on. Plus, Nedved and Overmars are both dangerous when cutting in.

However, EDogen's attack can definitely break down Trippy's team. Guardiola isn't that much of a defensive player, and Gallas is still an obvious weak point for me. However, Trippy does have Given in goal...

Ugh...I need some more convincing arguments from both before I finalise my decision. As of now, I'm siding with @rpitroda.