Do individual mistakes undermine us more than a lack of play style? (New manager, same ol' rubbish)

[horsechoker]

I don't know whether we make more mistakes in possession than other teams but it seems we regularly make mistakes such as mishit/underhit/overhit passes, bad touches, players not moving into the right areas and lack of communication.

Are these mistakes undermining any attempts at actually having a play style? While on the face of it it may seem we lack a style, our primary objective is to get the ball into the forward players as quickly as possible in order to create quick scoring opportunities. However, our play breaks down when it reaches the likes of Wan Bissaka who can't cross and plays short passes which allow the defenders time to get into position. Moreover, certain players shuck any sort of creative responsibility and just try to get it to players like Fernandes to do something even if he's not in a position to do so.

It seems to me that first we need to address these constant gaffes before we can execute any form of play style otherwise every move will just break down whenever attempt more than 2 passes in a row.

Furthermore, who do we blame for the amount of mistakes, the players or the coaches?

 

[HailtotheKing]

Or do we make these mistakes because we have no proper system? If each player knew where they should be standing and where they should run to, I’m pretty sure that would fit out a lot of the misplaced passes. Sure, there’s be the odd overhit and even less so under hot, but in general less of the Mose moments where the ball gets played straight out because the player either runs or doesn’t. And less interceptions. Also if we had a playing style there’d likely be less pressure on trying harder balls to make things happen because there would be more team work. Players wouldn’t take it on themselves to pull off at amazing piece of magic with lower chance of success, they’d just pass it until the opportunity opened up. A bit like City do.

Of course we’d still have moment like Shaw leaping and missing a header, putting our entire defence at risk

 

[harms]

No. The beauty of a well-built system is that it makes it easier for your players to perform — by providing more passing options or better defensive cover. No player is perfect, but you either mask their weaknesses and enhance their strengths by using smart tactics or you rely on their individual qualities to bail you out which may backfire if they are lacking those.

Although some players won’t fit into some systems obviously — Wan-Bissaka especially looks like an odd fit to most of the modern proactive tactics.

 

[horsechoker]

Or do we make these mistakes because we have no playing style? If each player knew where they should be standing and where they should run to, I’m pretty sure that would fit out a lot of the misplaced passes. Sure, there’s be the odd overhit and even less so under hot, but in general less of the Mose moments where the ball gets played straight out because the player either runs or doesn’t. And less interceptions. Also if we had a playing style there’d likely be less pressure on trying harder balls to make things happen because there would be more team work. Players wouldn’t take it on themselves to pull off at amazing piece of magic with lower chance of success, they’d just pass it until the opportunity opened up. A bit like City do.

Of course we’d still have moment like Shaw leaping and missing a header, putting our entire defence at risk

The thing is, even with a lack of style the players shouldn't make these mistakes. I don't count Fernandes trying a hollywood ball but overhitting a mistake but when players try passing from 4 yards and either mishit the pass or can't control it, it seems like no style of play could correct that.

What a style of play would correct are things like slow build-up and being unable to break down the lowblock.

 

[Womp]

As the others have mentioned - with better football, you're probably less likely to make those kind of mistakes. eg. when you're dominating the ball, you pin the opposition back, less chance for them to progress up the field/high press our defenders etc.

The examples are endless. I'd argue quite a few of our mistakes are due to the coaching and approach. Our defenders hold the ball far too long, players are quite static in their movement, not being available as passing options, we are quite slow at moving the ball etc.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I hope not because we're a terrible team to watch and don't look like we have a coherent play style.

 

[Trequarista10]

No. The beauty of a well-built system is that it makes it easier for your players to perform — by providing more passing options or better defensive cover. No player is perfect, but you either mask their weaknesses and enhance their strengths by using smart tactics or you rely on their individual qualities to bail you out which may backfire if they are lacking those.

Although some players won’t fit into some systems obviously — Wan-Bissaka especially looks like an odd fit to most of the modern proactive tactics.

I would agree with this.

Especially against parked buses, our players look like they don't know what to do. Or more accurately, they don't know what each other want to do. So for example one player will be looking to play a simple pass and then make a run, but instead of making themselves available for this instead the other player makes a run. Or two players will make a move into the same space, both wanting the other one to move some where else.

Now, in theory you could get a team that doesn't have these set, drilled patterns of play, but are allowed the freedom to improvise, but this requires a remarkable amount of understanding and coordination between the players. And it's increasingly difficult against a low block.

 

[Nick7]

A lot of that comes down to poor coaching. A lot of our players don’t know where to go after laying off a pass, the majority of them down know how to shake someone who’s marking them leading to poor passes. the amount of times you see a United play standing beside or behind an opposition player not giving his teammate an option is staggering.

The fact we rely of Bruno so much for creativity as you mention is a hallmark of poor coaching. We don’t know how to break down a team so just give the ball to the player who can do it on his own.

 

[Eplel]

No.

Even then, the lack of coherent style, tempo and tactics, forces our players to make more individual mistakes, for reference see most of the time that Harry hogs the ball.

 

[Tarrou]

nah I don't think so personally

every team makes mistakes

if anything, our lack of cohesive playing style exposes the players to more situations where a mistake is costly - and ends up getting discussed more because of it

 

[#07]

Its not individual mistakes, its simply the limitations of the players we have. If your gamplan is to advance the ball through your fullbacks having Wan-Bissaka effectively leaves you one legged. Then when Shaw goes off with an injury you're cut off at the waist.

We have all seen enough of Fred and McTominay to know they aren't going to play a Carrick through ball into Ronaldo's feet on a regular basis. Its not going to happen. They're limited players. McTominay has more time to grow and may surprise us. Fred is 28 years old. What we see from him is what we're gonna get.

No functional, modern playing style can rely on these guys as its lynchpins.

What Ole's doing is effectively managing what he perceives to be the limitations of our squad. I agree with him on a lot of those. Without replacing some players its hard to see how we get vastly different results. I struggle to believe Wan-Bissaka is going to start putting Alexander-Arnold level balls into the box any time soon, even if we can get him to cross more.

 

[James Peril]

The automatic question would be; would the same players make the same mistakes if playing for an elite manager in a better system? If yes, how do you reach that conclusion? Either the player isn’t as good as we think or the blame is put on our current management.

I think it’s fair to say objectively that we perform worse than the sum of our parts. A better manager would make our bottom level much higher and more importantly; we’d enjoy the games much better. Football is only about entertainment, this team is capable of delivering blistering levels of attacking football and we deserve to see it. Sometimes I see City and think to myself, damn… this is lightyears ahead of United in terms of entertainment. Shame!

 

[HailtotheKing]

Also, it amazes me how players can go from absolutely awful to amazing so easily. One game, AWB couldn’t trap a bag of cement, the next I’m mistaking him for Pogba.

 

[villain]

We make more mistakes because the players take too long on the ball.
They take too long on the ball because none of the other players run or make themselves available for a pass.
None of the other players run or make themselves available for a pass because they have no instructions.
They have no instructions because we don't have a style of play.
We don't have a style of play because the coaches aren't good enough.

That's just my thoughts.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

There are definitely basics that some can't do or can do/don't. It'd be fair to say the first could come from coaching (though at 20+ you'd think they'd have the basics by now) but the second, maybe not.

AWB seems limited in passing ability which is a shame as has Greenwood ahead of him (though had a couple of good moments on Saturday which showed what COULD be).

As a team, I think we're too slow/cautious generally though... always seems to be two or three passes across the defence/midfield which add nothing apart from allowing opponents to get back. It's like we're scared of losing possession but (1) it restricts attack and (2) actually invites a nippy forward to pressure the defenders who look petrified at times. We need to make more vertical passes but this also needs the midfield/forwards to move.. with and without the ball, they're so static and don't seem to look for space.

And we need to make a big decision on Pogba. Twice near the end v Villa, he drove forward with the ball 40 yards... Villa backpedaling, creates space for others, great. BUT, more than twice, he lost the ball and they countered. Once, he was just outside Villas box and they surged forward... Pogba jogged back and 10 seconds later, there was only Martinez and one defender who weren't ahead of him. That's basics, it's just about effort and mental attitude.

Villa game was nothing like MOTD made it out to be, they had 7 shots, think MOTD showed them all. We had 28? If Greenwood passes to Bruno in first half, could've been a completely different game.. that's not an excuse and to be clear, we were poor (they were average, ref was shite) but an example of important decisions going wrong and affecting games/results.

Ole needs to do better, so do the players.

 

[largelyworried]

Depends on how closely you look at it. Almost every goal has a moment in its build up where it could have been stopped. A poor pass, a missed tackle, a badly positioned defender. So its easy to look at goals conceded and make the argument that they're all down to individual errors.

Defensive systems are designed to minimize goals conceded, either by mitigating the weaknesses of your players or by making the opposition play in a way that reduces their strengths. One example, Barcelona under Pep were only average at traditional penalty box defending, but by pressing from the front and hogging the ball they radically minimized the number of times they had to do that. As a result, their defensive record was usually pretty excellent. They played to their strengths.

You have to start by looking at the overall picture. If a team is conceding lots of goals, even if each of them has an individual error involved, then its probably a bigger issue than the individual players. The team is being set up in a way that its weaknesses (which every team has by the way) can be exploited too readily by the opposition.

 

[Tom Cato]

No. The beauty of a well-built system is that it makes it easier for your players to perform — by providing more passing options or better defensive cover. No player is perfect, but you either mask their weaknesses and enhance their strengths by using smart tactics or you rely on their individual qualities to bail you out which may backfire if they are lacking those.

Although some players won’t fit into some systems obviously — Wan-Bissaka especially looks like an odd fit to most of the modern proactive tactics.

Are you saying that we need defensive cover to make sure one of our defenders don't get punished for a big personal mistake?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Sorry but this is a real stretch. The buck stops with the manager especially one who has been here for 3 years and spend 300+ million. That we are still blaming individual errors is a bit nuts. It's clear from watching us play that we lack that excellence in our football that usually comes when you have a superbly coached team organised by a top manager. You can try to skirt around the issue but I don't think we're getting anywhere by avoiding the actual problems.

Also, based on what I've seen, a team that isn't as well drilled tends to allow for more individual errors whereas a team that doesn't, and in turn elevates the parts that it consists of.

 

[Skills]

Individual mistakes happen more often because your set up is putting your players in unfavourable positions or the opposition's set up is finding a way to put your players in unfavourable conditions.

 

[Jeppers7]

Its not individual mistakes, its simply the limitations of the players we have. If your gamplan is to advance the ball through your fullbacks having Wan-Bissaka effectively leaves you one legged. Then when Shaw goes off with an injury you're cut off at the waist.

We have all seen enough of Fred and McTominay to know they aren't going to play a Carrick through ball into Ronaldo's feet on a regular basis. Its not going to happen. They're limited players. McTominay has more time to grow and may surprise us. Fred is 28 years old. What we see from him is what we're gonna get.

No functional, modern playing style can rely on these guys as its lynchpins.

What Ole's doing is effectively managing what he perceives to be the limitations of our squad. I agree with him on a lot of those. Without replacing some players its hard to see how we get vastly different results. I struggle to believe Wan-Bissaka is going to start putting Alexander-Arnold level balls into the box any time soon, even if we can get him to cross more.

I don’t get the idea that it’s all AWB’s fault. He’s no TAA going forward for sure but with coaching he could be an effective partner for Sancho, if he was properly implemented and not thrown in and out by Ole. Also McFred as you mentioned aren’t going to become Scholes or Modric, they can’t even reach Carrick level or get close, but the manager picks them every week….despite having four excellent defenders behind them that he can’t get a tune out of collectively. He’s got a set of phenomenal forwards he can’t get a tune out of effectively and the midfield he chooses to pick on repeat is substandard. It’s not AWB or the fault of McFred, it’s the fault of the manager for picking McFred and not being able to sort a simple method of attacking from out wide despite having the tools.

 

[harms]

Are you saying that we need defensive cover to make sure one of our defenders don't get punished for a big personal mistake?

I’m saying exactly what I’m saying — that a good system provides sufficient cover for good defenders and our defensive system fails a bit too often to be considered a good one. It’s not going to save us from a hypothetical where Lingard passes the ball to the opposition striker to put him 1 on 1 with De Gea.

 

[Rash Decision]

Would add that a well-drilled system of play - i.e. having players rehearse set movements over and over again until they can perform them automatically - reduces mistakes as (1) practice makes perfect and (2) reduces the need for the individual player to spend costly time thinking about his next move. That split second could be the difference between an assist and a possession turnover due to a rushed pass.

tbh I’m having a hard time understanding why some fans object so strongly to drilled movements. It doesn’t make us more predictable to the opponent if done competently. And even if it’s predictable, it allows the players to execute the moves at such tempo that the opponents cannot react fast enough. Look at City.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

No. The beauty of a well-built system is that it makes it easier for your players to perform — by providing more passing options or better defensive cover. No player is perfect, but you either mask their weaknesses and enhance their strengths by using smart tactics or you rely on their individual qualities to bail you out which may backfire if they are lacking those.

Although some players won’t fit into some systems obviously — Wan-Bissaka especially looks like an odd fit to most of the modern proactive tactics.

Absolutely.

 

[gfive]

I don't know whether we make more mistakes in possession than other teams but it seems we regularly make mistakes such as mishit/underhit/overhit passes, bad touches, players not moving into the right areas and lack of communication.

Are these mistakes undermining any attempts at actually having a play style? While on the face of it it may seem we lack a style, our primary objective is to get the ball into the forward players as quickly as possible in order to create quick scoring opportunities. However, our play breaks down when it reaches the likes of Wan Bissaka who can't cross and plays short passes which allow the defenders time to get into position. Moreover, certain players shuck any sort of creative responsibility and just try to get it to players like Fernandes to do something even if he's not in a position to do so.

It seems to me that first we need to address these constant gaffes before we can execute any form of play style otherwise every move will just break down whenever attempt more than 2 passes in a row.

Furthermore, who do we blame for the amount of mistakes, the players or the coaches?

Better coaching than what we currently have would greatly reduce the number of individual errors, and also have the added benefit of keeping the opponents on the back foot so that they're unable to capitalize on any errors that may occur.

We play ourselves into trouble far too often from players holding onto the ball for too long, or trying to execute a risky pass in a dangerous area of the pitch, leading to a loss of possession and an unexpected counter attack that we're trying to deal with in a panicky manner.

Implementing a style of play would mean each player knows where they're supposed to be, and what they're meant to be doing, in and out of possession. They'd anticipate play and be better positioned to cover for each other if mistakes do occur.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

The problem is individual errors are accentuated even more by the lack of system and style of play which would usually help mask them.

 

[#07]

I don’t get the idea that it’s all AWB’s fault. He’s no TAA going forward for sure but with coaching he could be an effective partner for Sancho, if he was properly implemented and not thrown in and out by Ole. Also McFred as you mentioned aren’t going to become Scholes or Modric, they can’t even reach Carrick level or get close, but the manager picks them every week….despite having four excellent defenders behind them that he can’t get a tune out of collectively. He’s got a set of phenomenal forwards he can’t get a tune out of effectively and the midfield he chooses to pick on repeat is substandard. It’s not AWB or the fault of McFred, it’s the fault of the manager for picking McFred and not being able to sort a simple method of attacking from out wide despite having the tools.

Honestly, I want to believe what you say about Wan-Bissaka. I just don't see it though.

He was a like for like replacement for Valencia, at a time where our team's idea and play was built around counter attacking. The more we've moved away from just counter attacking, the more the basics of his game seem to be substandard for what we want to be. He's a fine tackler but his touch, control, passing and crossing are not going to be at the right level. I don't see how he can be an effective partner for Sancho as such a reactive player.

In terms of McFred, they are what they are as you say. I can understand Ole picking them to some degree. Given their job is to protect the defence when the fullbacks advance. However, Wan Bissaka offers so little going forward you wonder if its worth it? I think we're reaching crunch time in terms of some of these decisions.

 

[roonster09]

What we see on the pitch is the result of what we do on training ground. We do lot of mistakes or we are inconsistent because of our playing style, which depends on the manager. He wants us to be direct team, looking for forward passes. When that's the case, we do end up making lot of mistakes.

 

[golden_blunder]

Its not individual mistakes, its simply the limitations of the players we have. If your gamplan is to advance the ball through your fullbacks having Wan-Bissaka effectively leaves you one legged. Then when Shaw goes off with an injury you're cut off at the waist.

We have all seen enough of Fred and McTominay to know they aren't going to play a Carrick through ball into Ronaldo's feet on a regular basis. Its not going to happen. They're limited players. McTominay has more time to grow and may surprise us. Fred is 28 years old. What we see from him is what we're gonna get.

No functional, modern playing style can rely on these guys as its lynchpins.

What Ole's doing is effectively managing what he perceives to be the limitations of our squad. I agree with him on a lot of those. Without replacing some players its hard to see how we get vastly different results. I struggle to believe Wan-Bissaka is going to start putting Alexander-Arnold level balls into the box any time soon, even if we can get him to cross more.

And until people stop comparing to TAA they will be continually disappointed with whom ever plays right back, be that AWB or someone else

 

[#07]

And until people stop comparing to TAA they will be continually disappointed with whom ever plays right back, be that AWB or someone else

Okay. Pick any half decent attacking right back in the game e.g., Trippier. Wan-Bissaka is never going to be that.

I don't know why we didn't keep Ethan Laird around and see what he can do in the odd cup game.

I can remember Phil Jones and Chris Smalling playing at right back and I think they offered more in attack than Wan-Bissaka.

 

[Jeppers7]

Honestly, I want to believe what you say about Wan-Bissaka. I just don't see it though.

He was a like for like replacement for Valencia, at a time where our team's idea and play was built around counter attacking. The more we've moved away from just counter attacking, the more the basics of his game seem to be substandard for what we want to be. He's a fine tackler but his touch, control, passing and crossing are not going to be at the right level. I don't see how he can be an effective partner for Sancho as such a reactive player.

In terms of McFred, they are what they are as you say. I can understand Ole picking them to some degree. Given their job is to protect the defence when the fullbacks advance. However, Wan Bissaka offers so little going forward you wonder if its worth it? I think we're reaching crunch time in terms of some of these decisions.

Either way I don’t think replacing AWB transforms us as a team. I don’t think at this point bringing in a Kante would either. We aren’t lacking in quality and a better manager could easily implement tactics that would see individual players like AWB for example become more than the sum of their parts by knowing what to do and when in partnerships and triads. It’s McFred that I don’t see as being functional for any manager wanting control of a game.

 

[NZT-One]

Its not individual mistakes, its simply the limitations of the players we have. If your gamplan is to advance the ball through your fullbacks having Wan-Bissaka effectively leaves you one legged. Then when Shaw goes off with an injury you're cut off at the waist.

We have all seen enough of Fred and McTominay to know they aren't going to play a Carrick through ball into Ronaldo's feet on a regular basis. Its not going to happen. They're limited players. McTominay has more time to grow and may surprise us. Fred is 28 years old. What we see from him is what we're gonna get.

No functional, modern playing style can rely on these guys as its lynchpins.

What Ole's doing is effectively managing what he perceives to be the limitations of our squad. I agree with him on a lot of those. Without replacing some players its hard to see how we get vastly different results. I struggle to believe Wan-Bissaka is going to start putting Alexander-Arnold level balls into the box any time soon, even if we can get him to cross more.

I see your point mentioning individual limitations but this is the bread and butter of managers in all of the big leagues. Look at what kind of tunes the likes of Hasenhuttl, Potter or Bielsa get out of their players. Sure, results wise they are far off, I don't want to say, these are better managers just because of this but I think, it is obvious that the players limitations can be mitigated by good tactics.

It is an easy thing to see: when you have a player like AWB and he receives the ball knowing that he is going to be pressured in 2 seconds and he has to evaluate each option he has and there aren't any easy options, the chances he will flail are high. Give that player clear instructions, tell him, you go progressive to a midfielder who will make himself available or you go safe to CB who will make himself available or if nothing seems a good option you go long into the right channel for the right winger to run for, it reduces pressure because these players don't have to make as many decisions with so many variables in it. Players like Bruno or Pogba might strive with all that freedom and indiviuality but there are quite a few players in the squad who I think will hugely benefit from having more structure.

 

[Jeppers7]

I see your point mentioning individual limitations but this is the bread and butter of managers in all of the big leagues. Look at what kind of tunes the likes of Hasenhuttl, Potter or Bielsa get out of their players. Sure, results wise they are far off, I don't want to say, these are better managers just because of this but I think, it is obvious that the players limitations can be mitigated by good tactics.

It is an easy thing to see: when you have a player like AWB and he receives the ball knowing that he is going to be pressured in 2 seconds and he has to evaluate each option he has and there aren't any easy options, the chances he will flail are high. Give that player clear instructions, tell him, you go progressive to a midfielder who will make himself available or you go safe to CB who will make himself available or if nothing seems a good option you go long into the right channel for the right winger to run for, it reduces pressure because these players don't have to make as many decisions with so many variables in it. Players like Bruno or Pogba might strive with all that freedom and indiviuality but there are quite a few players in the squad who I think will hugely benefit from having more structure.

Exactly this

 

[tomaldinho1]

Press resistance is non existent in most games. Ironically AWB actually did really well versus Villa but teams target him and, some on the caf won’t like this, they also get a lot of change out of Maguire (this season he’s been terrible, Soton could have won the game due to his error, his terrible back pass under pressure versus Villa where Watkins should have scored).

This isn’t even to do with the players, it’s very short sighted to say AWB or Maguire is to blame, it’s because of what’s in front of them or, more aptly, what’s not in front of them. Fred is equally vulnerable to the press or miscontrol, McT is poor against a press (albeit better than Fred), Matic is too old, Pogba is very high risk and the one press resistant player we have in VdB never plays (not saying he is the answer). This boils down to how Ole has stated he wants us to play which is essentially direct high press football but with the press.

To be honest, the best way to sum this up is that if in attack we are reliant on individual brilliance then it makes sense we will also suffer more from individual errors. When there is no cohesion it isolates the individual.

 

[Will Singh]

The type of mistakes we make are ones where you make if you’ve just been chucked together and told to score goals and win. Ole wants us to sit back and counter and when teams come at us in the past we’ve shown we can dominate them. Now we’ve been found out and teams just sit back and watch us make fools of ourselves and nick goals. Every player needs to know what to do in every situation which is basic but either Ole isn’t doing this in training or the players ain’t doing as they should, take your pick?

 

[#07]

I see your point mentioning individual limitations but this is the bread and butter of managers in all of the big leagues. Look at what kind of tunes the likes of Hasenhuttl, Potter or Bielsa get out of their players. Sure, results wise they are far off, I don't want to say, these are better managers just because of this but I think, it is obvious that the players limitations can be mitigated by good tactics.

It is an easy thing to see: when you have a player like AWB and he receives the ball knowing that he is going to be pressured in 2 seconds and he has to evaluate each option he has and there aren't any easy options, the chances he will flail are high. Give that player clear instructions, tell him, you go progressive to a midfielder who will make himself available or you go safe to CB who will make himself available or if nothing seems a good option you go long into the right channel for the right winger to run for, it reduces pressure because these players don't have to make as many decisions with so many variables in it. Players like Bruno or Pogba might strive with all that freedom and indiviuality but there are quite a few players in the squad who I think will hugely benefit from having more structure.

This is a fair point. We don't know what instructions Aaron gets. He was seen doing 10 yard passing drills before the kick off on Saturday though.

However, its clear from Bruno pointing to Dalot to overlap him, and Dalot not doing it, that the players do have a lot of freedom. As you say, for some of them it might be too much freedom.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

And until people stop comparing to TAA they will be continually disappointed with whom ever plays right back, be that AWB or someone else

Comparison only seemed to mischievously begin when Trent was well out of form and looking like being left out of the Euros squad. Looks laughable now...as it did then really.

 

[Bestietom]

Think it's more the style of play, but yes we do have some players who lose the ball far too often, and people still defend them.

 

[Lentwood]

I would have to agree with the majority here - I think we make so many basic mistakes because, for whatever reason, many of our players don't seem to have a understanding with each other.

I am hoping this is just down to playing a slightly different system and having a few new faces in the team, but we need to fix it fast

 

[Nickelodeon]

I don't know whether we make more mistakes in possession than other teams but it seems we regularly make mistakes such as mishit/underhit/overhit passes, bad touches, players not moving into the right areas and lack of communication.

Are these mistakes undermining any attempts at actually having a play style? While on the face of it it may seem we lack a style, our primary objective is to get the ball into the forward players as quickly as possible in order to create quick scoring opportunities. However, our play breaks down when it reaches the likes of Wan Bissaka who can't cross and plays short passes which allow the defenders time to get into position. Moreover, certain players shuck any sort of creative responsibility and just try to get it to players like Fernandes to do something even if he's not in a position to do so.

It seems to me that first we need to address these constant gaffes before we can execute any form of play style otherwise every move will just break down whenever attempt more than 2 passes in a row.

Furthermore, who do we blame for the amount of mistakes, the players or the coaches?

Mistakes made by specific individuals (such as Fred or AWB who have a montage of mistakes) can be attributed to players. But every match being decided by individual mistakes that too by different individuals is something that the manager has to own up. Also, if the same player keeps making the same mistake (Fred being targeted for a high press), it is the manager who has made the call of putting the player in a position where they've previously made mistakes.

For example: the Young Boys loss could be attributed to the red card or the suicidal back pass, but for us to be in a position where we have lost control of the entire game wasn't down to any specific individual. The Villa game is another example where you could put it on a missed Bruno penalty but we should never have been in that position. The West Ham game is a reverse example where a wonder goal and a penalty save was needed for us to get the three points.

If these were big games, you could argue that the margins are too thin and you need such points to go in your favor. But if the margins remain narrow against the likes of Villa, West Ham and Young Boys, there is something fundamentally wrong with our game plan.

It is easy to judge the outcome and then form opinions. But under Ole, regardless of the result, the way we play has always left a lot to be desired. The number of matches where we're significantly better than the opposition are miniscule. So when we have games like Saturday's, it isn't knee jerk to blame it on Ole or call for Ole to be replaced. We know we've been lucky in many of our wins and rely on fine margins rather than our quality as a team and individuals.

Arsenal, as awful as they may be, are 4 points behind us having already played City, Chelsea and Spurs. I don't think our tally would've been higher than theirs had we had their fixture list. Our position after GW13 is going to be a big reference point regarding any progress made. Are we happy not challenging for the league this season? If we are, we can let it continue and hopefully get top 4 at the end of the season. But otherwise, there is only one decision that can be made.

 

[JPRouve]

The thing is, even with a lack of style the players shouldn't make these mistakes. I don't count Fernandes trying a hollywood ball but overhitting a mistake but when players try passing from 4 yards and either mishit the pass or can't control it, it seems like no style of play could correct that.

What a style of play would correct are things like slow build-up and being unable to break down the lowblock.

Every single player employed by United can control a pass and make accurate passes at a high rate. What they can't all do at a high rate is the sequence of reading an untidy situation, control the ball and then pass it seamlessly. The issue is with time and space, time to read and space to have time to read which often lead to someone being rushed and missing something that they would otherwise not miss. That's what top players and top managers bring, top players process information faster and can do the exact same sequence at higher speed which means that they are less often under pressure but it's not limited to top players, top managers also make things easier by enforcing patterns/processes. In order to have an edge you don't want your players to entirely read all situations while they happen, you want them to be able to anticipate and have less thinking to do. Top teams have patterns for recycling the ball and patterns for moving the ball from one area to the other, these teams are generally only "free-styling" in the last third.

Also a style of play doesn't help you break down lowblock, it's actually pure talent that allows that. A play style allows you to reach the last third easily without putting yourself in vulnerable situations.