Do we have to play with a striker?

andersj

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There have been a few examples in recent years of how coaches have adjusted their systems when they lack a proper striker. Coincidentally, two of our biggest rivals are good examples.

Both Klopp and Pep seemed to prefer playing with a center forward in the past. Both of them really seemed to like Lewandowski. At Liverpool, Klopp did not have that luxury and instead used a system where he got much of the same without having a pure center forward. In Peps case he relied heavily on Aguero for a few years at City, but as Aguero got older, and Pep failed to step up, he found a solution. I still think Man City would look better with Aguero up top, but that is another discussion. Ten Hag was also successful a couple of years ago with Tadic as a striker.

I do think Man Utd have the players to pull it off. With Brunos movement in and around the box he could work quite well as a «nine and a half». I also think having players wide strikers like Greenwood and/or Rashford, who is quite good at stretching a defence, would give him space, and make it work.

Another benefit would be that it would allow us to push Pogba higher, but play him through the middle, as it would allow us to play a 433. If we want to see a more attacking Pogba we need to give him protection. We can not put him in situations where he risk losing the ball infront of two defenders (like a DM in a 4231). It would help a lot if we had two midfielders behind him, giving him protection. (Another option could be a 343 where we would have one midfielder and three central midfielders.)

I also think it could suit Donny quite well to play as a striker or midfielder in that type of system.

Cavani is a decent solution in the short term, but he cant play every match. I also doubt that we will get a striker this summer. Personally, I think both Greenwood and Rashford is better as wide strikers. Martial is not a poor player at all, but he really cant press. Having him as a CF hurt our ability to press high.
 

VorZakone

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Meh, I just want Martial to find his fecking form again. A front 3 of Rashford-Martial-Greenwood in theory should be good.
 

eire-red

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I think if you play with a false 9, your wide players have to be prolific to compensate. The creative burden also falls heavily on the midfield and wing backs.

I think with the likes of Bruno, Rashford and Greenwood we have the players up front, but do we have the players required deeper in the pitch?

It wouldn't work for Liverpool without TAA and Robertson, and City rely on the creativity of KDB, Foden, Gundogan and even Cancelo from deep. Do we have players of that quality?
 

charlenefan

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Hate to be that guy but I don't think we have the right coaches at the club to pull off anything unorthodox
 

Abraxas

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I think it would be a massive struggle to convince people this is a good idea. It's a hard sell to a set of fans that are accustomed to top strikers down the years. Its hard to imagine how the manager would get much leeway to implement this through any teething problems. Van Gaal had a problem in that he brought the most identifiable style of football we have seen at the club in recent years but it was never truly trusted. I think it was part of his downfall alongside poor signings.

Also, the manager has spoken in glowing terms of Cavani as a focal point and how we have lacked that type. So this is definitely in the realms of theoretical as I don't think it's part of the manager's thinking at all, except maybe for isolated occasions.

The other difficulty is moving Bruno from a productive role to one where we have no idea how he'd fare, and the idea VDB could play such a role seems fanciful at best!
 

andersj

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It wouldn't work for Liverpool without TAA and Robertson, and City rely on the creativity of KDB, Foden, Gundogan and even Cancelo from deep. Do we have players of that quality?
I agree with your point.

But when City do it, they often put KdB up top. I also think Foden often plays as one of the attackers. The attackers in the CL-final was Sterling, KdB and Mahrez. Their playmakers were Foden, Gundogan and Silva.

At Liverpool the attackers are Mane, Firmino and Salah. Their «playmakers» are Robertson anf TAA.

Our attackers would be Rashford, Bruno and Greenwood (maybe even Sancho instead of Greenwood). Our creative force would have to come from Pogba, Shaw and hopefully someone like Trippier. Not as good as City, but close to Liverpool.
 

RUCK4444

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There have been a few examples in recent years of how coaches have adjusted their systems when they lack a proper striker. Coincidentally, two of our biggest rivals are good examples.

Both Klopp and Pep seemed to prefer playing with a center forward in the past. Both of them really seemed to like Lewandowski. At Liverpool, Klopp did not have that luxury and instead used a system where he got much of the same without having a pure center forward. In Peps case he relied heavily on Aguero for a few years at City, but as Aguero got older, and Pep failed to step up, he found a solution. I still think Man City would look better with Aguero up top, but that is another discussion. Ten Hag was also successful a couple of years ago with Tadic as a striker.

I do think Man Utd have the players to pull it off. With Brunos movement in and around the box he could work quite well as a «nine and a half». I also think having players wide strikers like Greenwood and/or Rashford, who is quite good at stretching a defence, would give him space, and make it work.

Another benefit would be that it would allow us to push Pogba higher, but play him through the middle, as it would allow us to play a 433. If we want to see a more attacking Pogba we need to give him protection. We can not put him in situations where he risk losing the ball infront of two defenders (like a DM in a 4231). It would help a lot if we had two midfielders behind him, giving him protection. (Another option could be a 343 where we would have one midfielder and three central midfielders.)

I also think it could suit Donny quite well to play as a striker or midfielder in that type of system.

Cavani is a decent solution in the short term, but he cant play every match. I also doubt that we will get a striker this summer. Personally, I think both Greenwood and Rashford is better as wide strikers. Martial is not a poor player at all, but he really cant press. Having him as a CF hurt our ability to press high.
Some good points. I’ve often thought Bruno could be a very good false 9 or ‘9 and a half’ which could allow us to push Pogba further forwards.

Could be something we could trial if the worst happens and we get an injury to Cavani.
 

el3mel

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We have Edinson fecking Cavani, one of the best strikers in current generations. It's better to make use of him.
 
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Oranges038

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No, more strikers = more goals.

4-4-2
3-4-3
3-5-2
2-3-5


I'm fine with any of the above. Had enough of the 4-6 under Jose.
 

Teja

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TBF to Ole, we did try to play Bruno as a false 9 in a few games and it worked reasonably well in a counter attacking system (Spurs in 19 / 20 was a great example I think?).

Martial as #9 was also not quite a traditional #9 - he'd drift out wide, create some overloads with Rashford on the left, make space for Bruno / Greenwood in the middle etc. I don't think it was ever super successful. It was mostly Martial going to shit than anything with the tactics I'd say.

Nothing like having a proper #9 though, just simplifies the entire game. Find your #9 and he'll get you goals. You need some really smart, tactically aware players to pull off what Pep does with his 4-4-2.
 

Trequarista10

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I think Pep is of the same opinion as Cruyff was, which is that if you have a world class number 9 then play them, but if not then it's better to play with a false 9 to create a 4 man midfield and dominate possession. There's a nice video on YouTube of Cruyff explaining this philosophy on Dutch TV, cba to find it.

I imagine we'll see United play with a false 9 at some point in the next few years given how the game is evolving. Inside forwards are ten a penny, number 10s are ten a penny, but top class number 9s are rare to find.
 

GlasgowCeltic

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A good idea on paper but nothing about the way Ole sets his team up suggests he's interested in having control in midfield, which is the point of the false 9
 

eire-red

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I agree with your point.

But when City do it, they often put KdB up top. I also think Foden often plays as one of the attackers. The attackers in the CL-final was Sterling, KdB and Mahrez. Their playmakers were Foden, Gundogan and Silva.

At Liverpool the attackers are Mane, Firmino and Salah. Their «playmakers» are Robertson anf TAA.

Our attackers would be Rashford, Bruno and Greenwood (maybe even Sancho instead of Greenwood). Our creative force would have to come from Pogba, Shaw and hopefully someone like Trippier. Not as good as City, but close to Liverpool.
It's definitely something to consider for Ole, especially if we don't strengthen in midfield in the transfer window. Getting Pogba and Bruno centrally, with AWB and Shaw bombing forward might be enough creativity to provide for Rashford and Greenwood.

However, one of Bruno's strengths is playing with a full picture of the game in front of him, and runners giving him options. Will he be limited with more time with his back to goal in the false 9?

Interesting option, and one that I thought about a couple of times during the season when Martial was bang out of form. However, watching Cavani in form towards the back end of the season showed us the value of a top no.9
 

mariachi-19

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Jesus christ, city were not even good last season. They had the benefit of two full first team squads and that was it in a massively compacted season. Any other year and they get shown up as they did on multiple occasions for a lack of directness and sharpness around the box.
 

Andycoleno9

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Teams who play possession football, can play without striker. Teams who play counter attacking football must have striker.
 

Ish

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Jesus christ, city were not even good last season. They had the benefit of two full first team squads and that was it in a massively compacted season. Any other year and they get shown up as they did on multiple occasions for a lack of directness and sharpness around the box.
Agreed that their squad depth was a massive bonus. From memory, they struggled up to the halfway mark but then found their rhythm, especially in defence, and had a very, very good second half of the season.

It’s weird to describe the EPL champions, CC winners, FA cup semi finalists & UCL finalists as “not even good” IMO.
 

Rozay

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We don’t have the midfield to play a false 9 system, so yes, we absolutely need a striker.
 

mariachi-19

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Agreed that their squad depth was a massive bonus. From memory, they struggled up to the halfway mark but then found their rhythm, especially in defence, and had a very, very good second half of the season.

It’s weird to describe the EPL champions, CC winners, FA cup semi finalists & UCL finalists as “not even good” IMO.
You dont get rolled by a 10 men Leeds or spanked by us at home as champions and be considered a great team.
 
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You dont get rolled by a 10 men Leeds or spanked by us at home as champions and be considered a great team.
This is the sort of Twitter argument that isn't really designed to stand up to serious discussion.

United "got rolled" by an awful City side twice the last time they won the CL. Liverpool got embarrassed by Watford while making a mockery of the league last year. Guess neither of those teams were very good either - or even good teams lose a handful of games a season. Tough one, that.

However, one of Bruno's strengths is playing with a full picture of the game in front of him, and runners giving him options. Will he be limited with more time with his back to goal in the false 9?
This is the reason it won't work. Fernandes is at his best when he picks the ball up with runners already ahead of him - he's not the Kane/Rooney/Benzema type to move backwards and lay it off to someone rushing on.

Rashford also works much better with Martial (before this season's implosion) or Cavani up front to create space for him to isolate defenders or run in behind.

Also, the Klopp comparison doesn't really work because Firmino is very much a center forward for Liverpool and has been for years now. They play with three extremely narrow forwards within the width of the box with possession.
 
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Valencia Shin Crosses

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I've posited this as a decent idea a few times, especially with Bruno's penchant for always wanting to be around the box producing anyways. As mentioned before, it would require our RB to be more prolific than AWB, because the entire point is to have your false 9 shift in between midfield and attack while the wingers are cutting in constantly from the flanks, leaving that space for bombing fullbacks. It's the best way to drag teams apart that sit deep though, as you constantly create difficulties with who to mark when you have 7 separate players at any moment that could charge into space. We'd probably need another engine type midfielder that's better going forward than Fred (unironically Ander Herrera would be perfect here), and obviously the DM is the second most important role as he has to be able to sweep up counters and distribute a la Fabinho, Busquets etc.

I also wondered whether Pogba as a false 9 would work, as he's technical enough to finish well while also being a brilliant passer. Would also alleviate his penchant for dallying on the ball in our own half. No chance any manager tries it, but it's a fun thought.
 

drunkmonkmeth

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Weve been playing without a striker since lukakku left till cavanni came and it was pretty terrible
 

Marwood

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I think it makes football harder so why do it?

It's sort of worked for City this season but in the end they looked toothless in Champs League Final. You're really banking on others giving you goals they don't necessarily have. Gundogan popped up out of nowhere with 17 goals which ssved them . His previous best was 6. Going into next season would you want to count on him matching that 17?
 

adexkola

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I think it makes football harder so why do it?

It's sort of worked for City this season but in the end they looked toothless in Champs League Final. You're really banking on others giving you goals they don't necessarily have. Gundogan popped up out of nowhere with 17 goals which ssved them . His previous best was 6. Going into next season would you want to count on him matching that 17?
They also are really good at creating chances. They scored the most goals in the league.

For us it would be a disaster.
 

FatTails

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We don’t have the tactical nous and flexibility to occasionally switch to a 4-3-3 with a single pivot, or a 3-5-2/3-4-3 where needed. You want us to play with a false 9? We’d look absolutely clueless.
 

Marwood

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They also are really good at creating chances. They scored the most goals in the league.

For us it would be a disaster.
True.

Sometimes a top striker can cover deficiencies. Imagine us without Cavani this year. Not pleasant.

But having said that Gundogan had only scored 22 for City previous to this season. Then he gets 17. Personally, as good as they are at making chances, I think there's an element of luck there. I can't believe Pep really thought Gundogan would triple his previous best season and bank on that.

So even with a good team and a good manager, without a striker, I think you're playing a risky game.
 

bosnian_red

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I dont think Bruno is the right type of player to pull that off, he's definitely a pure attacking midfielder who can score and create loads and works hard but is at his best playing in the space between the midfield and a striker. Take the striker away and there'd be a lot less space for him to play. Plus he's more midfielder than forward. Firmino is a forward at the end of the day and very good at holding up and can handle a decent amount physically. Bruno isn't really that style.

And unless you have Messi, it's always better to use a proper striker anyway.
 

redrobed

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Yeah, ultimately we’re Manchester Utd. It’s OK for the likes of City to play without a striker. They’re a soulless club that had no identity in the 1st place and no fans to complain about it or that were around 10-15 years ago to be able to say ‘that’s not the City’ way. But yes, we’re Utd and we should not only win but win with style.
 

ManRed

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We don't have the right technical players to play without a striker. A false 9 has worked mostly for teams with good technical midfield players i.e. Mancity, Barcelona or Spain. Our team is built around a 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 system for the past few seasons so can't throw that out and expect to play an entirely new one.
 

amolbhatia50k

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We have Edinson fecking Cavani, one of the best strikers in current generations. It's better to make use of him.
He isn't that good, and he's past his peak to boot. Cavani has done well for us but he really isn't a top CF. Top class movement though
 

Bwuk

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He isn't that good, and he's past his peak to boot. Cavani has done well for us but he really isn't a top CF. Top class movement though
What? Cavani is quality. He’s probably the best striker in the league bar Kane.
 

amolbhatia50k

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What? Cavani is quality. He’s probably the best striker in the league bar Kane.
I mean there's not much to choose from in the PL right now. Chelea have Werner, Liverpool have Firmino, Arsenal have..feck knows who Arsenal have with Aubamayang in sulk mode and Leicester have Vardy who has lost his legs. It's a rubbish pool of CFs.

So he's miles behind Kane and hence isn't really top striker. Cavani is good and excellent in the box, so I'm glad we have him as he offers something we lack, but let's not overhype him. He is 34, well past his prime, and offers very little in the buildup.
 

UpWithRivers

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Ive been saying this for years. Simply put our players are better suited to it.

1. Bruno plays more like a false 9. His goals and assist rate is phenomenal and where you would want him is in and around the box and not dropping deep and looking for the ball as he so often does. None of his managers ever play him there so its still a question if it would work but it really should
2. We have wide forwards on the wings not wingers. Hardly any crossing or traditional wing play. Greenwood, Rashford. Martial all suit a false 9 because they cant supply a true number 9. They will however suit the play and pass and movement of a false 9. Martial and Rashford had this interplay a lot the season before last.
3. All our midfielders would player better in a 3. Pogba, BVB, Fred, McTominay - you just cant make a double pivot out of that lot. Its impossible. You could however get a very effective 3. Even if we got a DM like Rice. Pogba and Rice? Im doubtful it would work. Pogba Rice + McTominay, Fred, DVB. Now thats a much better balanced midfield.
4. Even our back up players are better suited to 4-3-3 - Martial is more of a false 9. DVB is better in a 3 man midfield. etc


Yeah we have Cavani and we can play with a number 9 sometimes. But just with the players we have it just suits the majority better to play with a false 9. Even with new signings - say we get Sancho and Rice.

Rashford----Bruno---Sancho
-------Pogba---Rice----DVB

To me is better than

Rashford----Cavani---Sancho
------------------Bruno
----------Pogba---Rice---------

It depends on the opposition of course and the second team will work very well in a lot of games. But the first just has so much balance and suits the players better.
But thats just me. Wish we would at least try it for a few games though

Edit - I say Rice cos that seems who we are being liked to but I really want Ndidi.

Rashford----Bruno---Sancho
-------Pogba---Ndidi----DVB

Now thats a team with everything.
 
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Coastalkentred

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Perhaps you don't have to but i think you lose something really exciting in not having a van nistelrooyesqe all action poacher up front.

And I think if teams set up to not concede you can really struggle without a player hanging off the oppositions shoulders
 

stefan92

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Perhaps you don't have to but i think you lose something really exciting in not having a van nistelrooyesqe all action poacher up front.

And I think if teams set up to not concede you can really struggle without a player hanging off the oppositions shoulders
Just a sidenote about van Nistelrooy: He was at United for five years. Only in one of those years United won the PL, but they won the next three PL seasons after he left. I am not saying that this was all due to having van Nistelrooy in the team, but it illustrates a point quite nicely: Having a dedicated true poacher in the box can be countered quite well if you are up against top defenses. It is not the most reliable way to dominate over the run of a whole season and Uniteds output actually improved once he was gone.

Obviously that was also due to the rise of Ronaldo and Rooney, but it just shows that those more dynamic forwards making runs and creating and using spaces can more reliably break down defenses than a classic poacher.