People say the same thing about Barca's defense this year and I totally get it. I think luck has favored more than any other team in CL for many many years, if they were to replay the 2022 CL no way Madrid would be able to duplicate that run. Felt like the jammiest run since 2012 Chelsea. But to their credit, they got it done. But I do see why there is something cinderella-ish about them in CL. They play really well but you also walk away with a "how do they keep getting away with it" during a lot of their runs. But every champion regardless needs luck, no doubting that.
Does RM get the credit it deserves over the past 10 years?
- Thread starter AlPistacho
- Start date
Not necessarily.
Barca tend to have more possession and a variety of good attackers (especially when Neymar was there), so it stands to reason they'll beat more teams in La Liga.
Likewise Pep has a massive squad with City so they can afford to rotate in the league e.g. Vs the Liverpool team that finished 1pt behind them twice playing largely the same front 3.
When it comes to the best 'first 11s Vs other top first 11s', the CL is a better judge of this. The league can be skewed by other factors when there is more than one team competing for it.
I would fancy their chances against any of those teams.
The real 3 in a row team had a genuine all time great in every position. You could argue one or two were merely world class but it's a team that won against the best teams 3 years in a row.
To think they wouldn't compete against any other good team that comes up against them is fanciful.
The thing is, mistakes are one thing, they happen, but if Barca benefited from any decisions they paid for, then thats an entirely different matter
Super League would be a better sign of quality in that context. Current League tournaments obviously not considering team quality is much lower and considering you can afford to make a few mistakes, unlike in CL when margins for that are not as forgiving.
Basically you are trying to rationalize your massive failures in toughest football competition on the planet, by producing completely bonkers narrative.
Those Madrid teams were getting beaten by far worse Barca sides than the Pep ones. Madrid wouldn't be easy to beat, but I'd comfortably take those Bayern and Barca sides over them.
and you are doing the same with an even bigger bonkers narrative with Madrid falling short so often domestically.
They also have a painfully mediocre head to head against Barca even during Madrid winning those CL’s.
madrid were jammy in quite a lot of their CL runs but their biggest defeats always came at the hand of Barca.
It’s just the facts but Madrid have been quite disappointing domestically.
Madrid had a better team than 99% of la liga so that argument doesn’t hold. It wasn’t Barca’s bench winning all those leagues it was their starting XI
I have not offered any explanation as to why Madrid fell short domestically. My argument was that competition with much better opposition and difficult format is a better show of quality.
As for domestically. Madrid failing short is not surprising. Prioritizing CL. Hitting bad variance / bad cycle. Also Negreira factor. You name it. And still, Barca managed one win more domestically since La Decima if i am not mistaken.
Barca have fallen off in recent years it’s true. But it is far easier to fluke a knockout tournament (like Chelsea 2012, Madrid 2020) then win the league due to a fluke. 38 weeks is a far better marker for quality than a knockout tournament where luck plays a far bigger role.
CL is the best trophy for sure, but even zidane said how much tougher it is to win the league than to win CL. There have been more times where the best team in the world doesn’t win CL as oppose to the best team domestically not winning their league.
Those Madrid teams were getting beaten by far worse Barca sides than the Pep ones. Madrid wouldn't be easy to beat, but I'd comfortably take those Bayern and Barca sides over them.
Madrid has been dominating CL for a decade. Chelsea has also been a top contender. I doubt you know what it means to fluke.
A competition which allows more mistakes due to its format, has mostly lower quality opposition is far better marker for quality than a competition which allows basically zero mistakes and has top opposition. On other side you have FC Barcelona with 1:1 head to head score vs. Madrid this season, while Madrid is struggling to beat scrubs on regular basis. Absolute defensive powerhouse per stats, while unable to win Europa League let alone Champions League with years of being humiliated by highly diverse pack of teams.
Who should we give the best title? Negreira - pardon Barca? Bayern with their exceptional marker for quality? Previously Juve? City dominating Premiership while not being able to fart in CL up to this point?
Yes they are! UCL threepeat is always better than any treble. Not even comparable. In fact, that Madrid team in 2017 didn't win a treble, but 5 titles. La Liga, UCL, CWC, European Supercup and Spanish Supercup. They only missed the Copa del Rey, that btw they played all the games with the b team (bench players and youngsters). That makes them worse than the others because of that? If they've played Copa del Rey with their first team and win it, would that deserve to be the difference between being the best team ever and being just one more? Come on ...
Yet that Bayern won only 1 UCL, and got destroyed by that Madrid team in 2014 UCL while still being the defending champions.
and then you have Madrid who are 11 points behind a fairly mediocre side, a team who even when dominating CL had all their biggest humiliations at the band of Barca. Hell, even teams like girona humiliate Madrid. Funny how a “scrub” team is able to do that. Madrid always has a big jammy-ness to them in CL. Chelsea were 6th in the league in 2012 when they won CL. So enough with the contender rubbish.
if the league allows for more mistakes Madrid should’ve won even more if they were as good as they were. One again, even zidane said winning the league is harder because you have to be consistent for longer. Knock out tournaments have a far bigger luck factor to them. Madrid had all their biggest humiliations over the past decade at the hands of Barca. There’s a reason as great as their CL run is people speak much more fondly of 2011 Barca and 2013 Bayern and 2020 Bayern. Last year’s Madrid was the weakest team to win CL with the flukiest results (even Madrid fans on here will tell you how often they were outplayed in many of their matches).
Madrid have been humiliated this year and last year by a Barca side that wouldn’t even sniff a top 5 Barca team of the last decade. So great Madrid accomplishments but quite often they brag about being the kings of Europe while struggling to be the kings of their own backyard.
There was always a jammy quality to Madrid in CL hence why there are even topics of them not getting enough respect in that other thread. And last time madrid met Barca in CL it did not go well at all. The Barca over Madrid head to head speaks for itself. Even in a season like this one Barca still have beaten Madrid more times this year than Madrid have Barca.
And no, chelsea was not a contender, you seem very confused. Being 6th in your league doesn’t make you a contender.
As zidane says about the league:
He started the press conference by saying the following: “It's very difficult to win LaLiga. It's the most difficult league to win. It's a league of 38 rounds, so I'm very grateful to the players because they're the ones who fight every week. It's a team effort and a great thing we've achieved.
Thinking CL is a better sign of quality is beyond mental. It’s a lot of luck involved. Was chelsea 2012 or Madrid 2020 the best team in the world? Absolutely not. You probably also think the fa cup winners are the best teams in England.
I’ll go with what zidane says over what delusions you like to tell yourself.
that second biggest robbery since Barca over chelsea:
2014 Bayern has zero to do with 2013 Bayern. Does the 3 peat Madrid team become worse because they got annihilated by Ajax a season later? 2013 Bayern was better than any Madrid winning cl side and 2020 Bayern even more so.
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Robbery? When bayern had a ridiculous penalty to make it 2-0 in the first leg and should have been playing with 10 men for 80 minutes in the second leg after vidal tried to take isco's ankle as a trophy??? 
The robbery came in '18, but then again bayern really shouldn't have needed the penalties anyways
The robbery came in '18, but then again bayern really shouldn't have needed the penalties anyways
If that really is the Zidane quote you talk about so much, it is not really helping your case. He says La Liga is the most difficult league (can't say I agree), not the most difficult competition.
As a player, didn't Zidane famously struggle to win the CL? He only managed to win 1 if a remember correctly, the volley one.
Real fans definitely act like they don't get enough credit. At least the ones over here. They are constantly complaining about a lack of coverage/ respect/ adulation. It's a bit sad really. They get plenty of it.
It's not just that tackle from behind and that penalty. Lewandowski scored an offside goal and Vidal punched Kroos in the face in the second game too which means he should have seen two straight reds before actually getting sent off.Robbery? When bayern had a ridiculous penalty to make it 2-0 in the first leg and should have been playing with 10 men for 80 minutes in the second leg after vidal tried to take isco's ankle as a trophy???
The robbery came in '18, but then again bayern really shouldn't have needed the penalties anyways
@GinobiliTheGOAT it's ok to post one manipulated video from time to time and people probably won't tell you anything because of how tiresome everything is but it seems like you want to set a forum record this week, so it's time for me to tell you how ridiculous the whole thing looks.
I’ll take zidane’s words over anyone on here. And back in those days la liga was a tougher league than the epl. La liga has nosedived in recent years though. It’s harder to be consistent over 38 weeks which is where he’s absolutely right.
it is quite bizarre. What they’ve achieved with CL is all time historical. They’re the biggest club of all time for a reason. But not being as fondly remembered as other CL sides is totally fair and lack of domestic trophies during most of their CL winning years plays into that. It really is puzzling how much they moan about it ignoring how insanely jammy it was as well. But history rightfully will only remember the winners. Next they’ll be asking for a guard of honor for every match they play.
you are constantly crying about Barca, but it’s okay when you do it and you share your biased manipulated articles/videos. Bayern 2014 was absolutely ridiculous. The number of offside goals Madrid got away with it truly staggering. It is what it is. I even mentioned the robber of Barca over chelsea but you keep being a blind homer.
No amount of praise is enough praise for Real Madrid
You guys are amaaaazing and I love the colour white.No amount of praise is enough praise for Real Madrid
2014 was a straight up massacre. What you arw talking about is 2017, and again, it wasn't a robbery by any stretch of the imagination. 2018 was, Bayern should have had 3 penalties across the tie, but then again, they also should have just scored 6 goals in the first leg alone and they were kind enough to gift us 2 goals, so, really. They would have missed those penalties anyways
Often recognized as the club in the world. They kinda took our spot as I feel back in 2013 you could argue one way or another who the biggest club in the world is. They're talked about plenty!
Real Madrid is widely recognized as the biggest club in the world, so I wouldn't say they don't get the credit they deserve. However, I do see a lot of coping from some fans, particularly cules, who struggle to understand how Real Madrid can be so successful in the Champions League.
I think he has. Nearly every premiership team now tries to play out of the back, Even the bad teams.
In 2016, most pundits were convinced that type of football was not going to work in the premiership.
City were playing out the back before Pep. So were United. Arsenal had been doing it for decades. Etc...
He *may* have somewhat changed the mentality in England, as he did in Germany, but he didn't revolutionized the sport. He only did that at Barcelona
Teams were playing out from the back long before Pep came, including previous managers of Peps own club.
Zidane has not made any comparisons with CL. He has stated that La Liga is the most difficult league to win. Right after Madrid won it. Secondly, even if he actually claimed La Liga > CL, it would be irrelevant considering opinions differ, and vast majority of coaches would put CL title above league titles. As for that Barca "humiliation" babble, who cares? It is completely irrelevant for the argument. I bet if Barca had better head to head in League campaign and still lost it, you would offer some infantile "logic" of how that League title is a fluke or "jammy".
Ironically FA cup was won by Chelsea the same season as CL - totally different animal. Clearly contenders. With what words to describe you, when making such inept analogy?
Okay. What defines the best team in the world? Winning League Title? Okay. Which League is better? La Liga or Premiership? Do we use Uefa quotas to determine that? Premiership is probably the best at this point. Right? City is dominating Premiership. Meaning they are the best right? Is that enough or do we apply anything else? 700 passes at minimum? Joga Bonito? Anything else? Cattenacio a revolutionary tactics of past period is a big no-no, right? City is the best clearly, right?
.... If so, why they keep getting spanked by everybody there is in Champions League?.... Ay caramba!
Next time, for the love of God. Could you manage a shorter reply and a bit more coherent. Okay?
People can make arguments about being "lucky" in the CL all they want but the actual record of the competition shows that there are few lucky or anomalous champions.
Chelsea were one of the best teams in the world, with some of the best players in the world, from 2005 to 2010. They were not as consistent in 2012 due to age and having no manager, but there was enough quality there. Real Madrid 2022 is even more obvious: a squad full of players who'd won the title 2-4 times already (there or elsewhere) led by a striker who had a Balon d'Or winning season.
These are the best examples people can come up with for "lucky", and they are in fact not very good.
Chelsea were one of the best teams in the world, with some of the best players in the world, from 2005 to 2010. They were not as consistent in 2012 due to age and having no manager, but there was enough quality there. Real Madrid 2022 is even more obvious: a squad full of players who'd won the title 2-4 times already (there or elsewhere) led by a striker who had a Balon d'Or winning season.
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if Madrid have won so many CL’s why did they struggle so much in la liga? Think about why that is. It is moronic to use a knockout tournament for best team in the world. Once again, you really think 2012 chelsea was truly the best team in the world? Hint: they weren’t.
as for zidane:
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
so you’re wrong about that.
madrid struggled domestically, it is what it is. Luck plays a far bigger role in CL than the league. CL is not the best barometer for best team in the world. It’s much easier to decide the best team of a country than the world. You would need a league, a proper 38 week league for all the “best” teams to truly decide that.
nobody says the best team in Spain is the Copa del Rey winner.
Real Madrid did not "struggle" domestically. They won 5 CL titles. In those 5 seasons, they won 2 domestic leagues, lost another one by 1 point, and lost another one by 3 points. That is not a struggle by any stretch of the imagination. The only season in which they "struggled" was 2017-2018 when they were miles off the pace in the league but still won a 3rd consecutive CL title.
It is odd that Madrid struggled so much domestically during thr years they were winning the champions league 2014-2018, which just so happened to be years Negeria was still getting paid, and since that's stopped they won 2 of the next 4 leagues, a real puzzler
In the 18 seasons 2001-2018:
Barca won 10 leagues and 4 CL
Madrid won 5 leagues and 5 CL
Valencia won 2 leagues and was once the finalist of the CL and won 1 EL
Atlético won 1 La Liga and was the finalist twice on CL and won 3 EL
Sevilla won 0 leagues and 5 EL
Apart from Barca I would say Spanish clubs struggled in the league despite obviously having strong teams.
The fact that during those years Barca payed millions to the ref VP might have something to do with it.
Exactly this. Any Spanish club (apart from Barca) that won a national competition during the Negreira years deserve a lote of credit. Blaming them for not winning more is just ridiculous. Specially when it comes from Barca fans
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I'm gonna go back to the quote because it really makes it clear how transparent this all is.
Real Madrid won the league in 2022, comfortably, as well as winning the CL. No other club in the top 5 European leagues did even so much as a league/cup double.
Real Madrid won the league with 86 points. They won with 4 games to go; afterwards, they dropped 7 points from 12 as there was no need to perform. PSG won their domestic title with 86 points, Bayern won theirs with 77 (comes to the same PPG as RM's), Manchester City won with 93 points, AC Milan won with 86 points.
What quantitative basis exists to claim that Real Madrid were absolutely not the best team in the world? That Manchester City got a few more points in the league (because they had to)?
It's just "vibes."
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My claim was that Super League would be the best metric of quality. Assuming if done the right way. Until then CL is the best way, considering it has substantially better quality than domestic competitions. It also offers enough games to reduce variance and with it "luck" factor whatever that may be. Domestic competitions tell you nothing in context of "international quality", and yet here you are recycling the same garbage. Besides, Madrid won one La Liga trophy less than Barca since 13/14.
As for Zidane. Even if context holds it is irrelevant. Most would chose CL. Besides, CL winner distribution shows how hard it is to win it let alone monopolize it. As for Copa del Rey analogy, it is just as dumb as a rock.
Shall we discuss serial winner of Premiership City, being absolutely slaughter in CL? Unlucky right? Whatever that may be.
Also, just out of curiosity. Do you consider Spain offering the most quality / being the best in previous era? How have we determined that? Maybe with success at international cups? Oh my.
the only dumb analogies are the ones you are attempting to share.
All knockout tournaments tell us is who was the hottest team at a particular time. Were Lyon actually a better team than man city because they beat them in a two legged tie? If people had a gun to their head to choose between the two sides back then to win a match knowing what they know you think they would actually choose Lyon over city?
You don’t get these random results for having the wrong performance on the wrong day just once.
there’s a reason you agree the super eagle would be an even barometer than the CL and I imagine the length of season has a lot to do with that. Think about why that is.
You’re really struggling with this concept and it’s quite baffling. I’ll go with zidane over you. You seem very confused with logic.
Two issues with your rhetoric:
1. You don`t need 38 week competition to determine who is the best. The easiest argument. Secondly. Length of the season is of secondary importance. Super League would imply everybody plays everybody. That is the point. But even then per your fallacies, you could offer contrived argument that playing just two matches against the same opponent does in fact not conclude who is the best. Example, Real Madrid having negative score vs Granada. Clearly Madrid is better. 6 points! If played 100 matches, clearly variance would be gone.
2. How exactly to determine quality / who is the best then? Remove knockout tournaments - including the latest World Cup in which Argentina is not a World Champion but a Champion of the 18 december - 90+ minutes? Keep them and introduce additional rules such as at ski jump, just football version of it. Meaning, additional points or deductions for style, handicaps, etc..? Point being, what metrics does exactly determine "who is the best team"?
At this point you make Niemans to appear as a raging intellectual.
1. You don`t need 38 week competition to determine who is the best. The easiest argument. Secondly. Length of the season is of secondary importance. Super League would imply everybody plays everybody. That is the point. But even then per your fallacies, you could offer contrived argument that playing just two matches against the same opponent does in fact not conclude who is the best. Example, Real Madrid having negative score vs Granada. Clearly Madrid is better. 6 points! If played 100 matches, clearly variance would be gone.
2. How exactly to determine quality / who is the best then? Remove knockout tournaments - including the latest World Cup in which Argentina is not a World Champion but a Champion of the 18 december - 90+ minutes? Keep them and introduce additional rules such as at ski jump, just football version of it. Meaning, additional points or deductions for style, handicaps, etc..? Point being, what metrics does exactly determine "who is the best team"?
At this point you make Niemans to appear as a raging intellectual.
If Lyon had actually won the Champions League that season, and were otherwise consistent performers, then yes people might say that. They didn't and aren't, so people don't say it. This is not that complicated.
That's what league titles tell us too. The time is just extended a bit.
The CL winners of the last decade are Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Liverpool, and Chelsea. That's a pretty good match to the 'best clubs of the last decade', only need to swap City for Chelsea (which won't even be a 'problem' if City win this year).
Not wearing the white shirt.
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Culés in here are truly a sad species, they use that Zidane quote about winning the league by taking it out of context.
Zidane had won 3 CL in a row and one as an assistant prior to making that quote. He made it when he returned to Real Madrid after we had been utter shit post Ronaldo. He said it to motivate the team to take every match seriously in the league.
Real Madrid and we fans don’t really value the Negreira league. It’s a league where everyone hates Real Madrid. It’s a league where every team plays those two games against Real like it’s a CL final. Against Barca and Atletico they never give the same effort. On top of that Barca paid the referees and the stable of referees have been over the years been cultivated to be pro-Barca. Ask yourself why a team that beats the best European giants don’t win the league every year? It’s because everything goes against Real Madrid and everything goes with another team who paid referees. It’s not a serious competition.
the CL is the superbowl of football and that’s where our focus is. Before Barca started paying referees they had 14 league titles, after they started paying they got 26. It’s not a serious competition. When Real Madrid win it it’s a huge thing because they win it with everything against them.
also a fun fact, the company that runs the VAR for La liga is MediaPro. It’s a company owned by Jaime Roures. This man guaranteed the money needed for Laporta to become president of Barca. He guaranteed the sun of money needed to be able to become Barca president. This is the stuff the Barca PR machine tries to hide. All that talk about Real Madrid favors is just propaganda by the cheating Catalans. This same Jaime Roures also bought one of Barcas levers that he paid an overprice for something worth much less. He runs VAR through one of his companies and at the same time he’s the de facto part owner av Barca.
I know it sounds ridiculous to PL supporters but the Spanish league is the most corrupt league in the world.
Zidane had won 3 CL in a row and one as an assistant prior to making that quote. He made it when he returned to Real Madrid after we had been utter shit post Ronaldo. He said it to motivate the team to take every match seriously in the league.
Real Madrid and we fans don’t really value the Negreira league. It’s a league where everyone hates Real Madrid. It’s a league where every team plays those two games against Real like it’s a CL final. Against Barca and Atletico they never give the same effort. On top of that Barca paid the referees and the stable of referees have been over the years been cultivated to be pro-Barca. Ask yourself why a team that beats the best European giants don’t win the league every year? It’s because everything goes against Real Madrid and everything goes with another team who paid referees. It’s not a serious competition.
the CL is the superbowl of football and that’s where our focus is. Before Barca started paying referees they had 14 league titles, after they started paying they got 26. It’s not a serious competition. When Real Madrid win it it’s a huge thing because they win it with everything against them.
also a fun fact, the company that runs the VAR for La liga is MediaPro. It’s a company owned by Jaime Roures. This man guaranteed the money needed for Laporta to become president of Barca. He guaranteed the sun of money needed to be able to become Barca president. This is the stuff the Barca PR machine tries to hide. All that talk about Real Madrid favors is just propaganda by the cheating Catalans. This same Jaime Roures also bought one of Barcas levers that he paid an overprice for something worth much less. He runs VAR through one of his companies and at the same time he’s the de facto part owner av Barca.
I know it sounds ridiculous to PL supporters but the Spanish league is the most corrupt league in the world.