Dominoes draft: QF - Enigma_87 vs Lord SInister

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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Enigma_87


VS

Lord SInister


Enigma_87
Formation: 4-2-3-1 (fluid), double pivot
Defensive line: normal
Style: very direct, fast tempo, interchanging positions in attack.

Player profiles and roles:
GK: Toni Schumacher - One of the best keepers of the 80's. Strong in the air, commanding presence in the box (and uncompromising outside it) and excellent reflexes.
LB: Ashley Cole - Probably the best left back since Maldini he is tasked to stretch up the play and participate in the build up in attack, whilst also being rock solid in defence. He'll move vertically to engage the opposition full back in possession and another option forward, whilst letting Andres and Di Stefano do their magic attacking from that side.
RB: Willy Sagnol - an integral part of a hugely successful Bayern team in the early 00's, he won 5 Bundesliga's, 1 CL, 1 Intercontinental Cup and 4 DFB Pokal's. His credentials at international level are also worth remembering that 2006 WC run, where he put one solid performance after another and starting all of his country 7 games. He's a superb long passer and crosser and will be in balanced role forming a great partnership with Figo on the right.
CB: Sol Campbell - a complete CB. He possessed great strength, pace and defensive ability, whilst also great in the air - scoring some vital goals from headers. He was Arsenal's leader at the back for many years and had an excellent WC in 2002, selected as CB in the all star team.
CB: Roberto Ayala - perhaps a bit underrated since his peak came at Valencia he was the heart of the defence which won 2 La Liga's, breaking Real and Barca duopoly and also winning an UEFA cup and making it to CL finals - being awarded the best defender of the year in 2001 in the process. Relentless, ball-winning and mentally strong. Kept the defensive of the Argentinian squad together for many years. One of the best in his generation and of a dying breed - complete, pure defender.
CM: Frank Rijkaard - The man needs no introduction, but you can hardly find someone better to protect the back four than him. The best DM in the game has a crucial role freeing Di Stefano to roam around the middle of the park and control the game.
CM - Lothar Matthäus - was a gargantuan footballer. The term 'complete player' is frittered around too often, but Matthäus could rightly lay claim to that. Equally adept in his own penalty box as in the opposition’s, Matthäus was a box-to-box midfielder capable of scoring numerous types of goals in the air or with either foot. He was quick, powerful, elusive and technically supreme. Squaring off against peak Maradona is something too familiar for Matthäus as he was already tasked with man-marking Digeo, prowling after El Diego, cutting off any space for his opposite number in the World Cup.
LWF: Karl Heinz Rummenigge - a complete forward capable of operating anywhere in attack. He'll start from the left but will be tucking in and swapping positions with Di Stefano who also loved the left flank. Kalle will be operating in a modern left forward role, which would allow him to use his pace on the wing but also arrive in the box and finish off chances.
RWF: Luis Figo - Another complete winger and one of the best right wingers in the game. He offers a blend of physical and technical skills with the ability to beat his man constantly and put in top crosses and passes from the right. A hard worker by trade as well he'll provide support in both phases. Figo’s greatest assets were his powerful free-kicks, a knack for scoring vital goals, skill to beat players at will, pinpoint passing ability and incredible imagination to create assists out of nothing.
#10/AM/SS - Zico - The White Pele is considered as one of the most skillful and greatest finishers ever in the game, having scored more than 500 goals for club and country. Zico was a true genius on the park with his vision, technique and passing ability was top notch coupled with his perfect free Kick technique. His role is more of a second striker/advanced playmaker in a way that it won't interfere with Di Stefano dropping back and running the game from deep. His brilliant linkup play, quick one two's, the ability to beat players and create space for others will come in handy when we're moving with the ball in attack.
CF - Alfredo Di Stefano - Di Stefano is the total footballer that could give you advantage in any game. A GOAT of his own he will have complete freedom in the attack, roam around and swap positions with Kalle, pull defenders out of position and be the end of the crosses. Often Di Stefano was the one man spine, but with Rijkaard and Matthaus in midfield he'll have complete freedom to fulfill his attacking talents to the fullest and combine with Kalle and Zico up top.

Tactics and advantages:
Defence - a solid back four consisting of two full backs that can support the attack and two pure central defenders. Ashley Cole has proven he is a key asset on the left wing having been paired with another left side playmaker who loved cutting in in Pires and afterwards for Chelsea alongside Duff and Robben. Sol Campbell and Ayala is really solid backbone in the center and one of the best of their generation. Both are excellent in the air with Ayala possessing a huge leap, both are fast and hard to beat on the ground. At the goal we have Schumacher with his commanding presence. Both Ayala and Capmbell possess a great presence in the air and can neutralize Kocsis biggest asset - both in positional sense and actually beating him to the ball in the air.

Midfield - one of our greatest assets is our midfield. It consists of probably the best combo in 4-2-3-1 double pivot - Matthäus and Rijkaard. Both are excellent defensively and can set up the stage for our great attack to decide the match. Matthäus in particular is a great fit for Maradona as the latter described him as “the toughest opponent he ever had”. Rijkaard will provide further defensive solidity and also offer additional protection for Ashley Cole when dealing with Messi. Zico is a creative force in the hole offering his great vision, one touch play and of course finishing abilities from outside and in the box.

Attack: Probably the biggest mismatch on the pitch will be Figo against Ziege. We will use that of our own so that Luis can create opportunities by beating his man and either finish the move or find Kalle/AdS or Zico - three brilliant goalscorers when he creates a numerical advantage from the right.
Kalle and Di Stefano are two brilliant all rounders who will be interchanging and swapping positions so that we can pull Lord Sinister defence around and create openings in the box.

Most likely Lord Sinister will be playing two markers at the back, hence the two complete forwards who are also well capable of pulling wide would be a best fit rather than a typical target man and being a good fit for this game.

Advantages:
Great attack with lot of variation. We have the skill, finishing ability and the versatile players to attack all over the attacking end, whilst also the obvious quality in it.

Figo vs Ziege - an obvious mismatch in our favor, Ziege will be the weakest player on the pitch so we intend to use that in the game.

Solid core in defence and midfield - we have a great match for Sinister's GOAT attack. Matthaus on Diego is proven option to limit his game, whilst Rijkaard offers additional protection in the center. Ashley Cole did pretty well against Messi when both of them were squaring off in the CL and also is one of the best modern left backs defensively against top players like Messi himself, Ronaldo, etc..

Excellent CB pair in the air - Kocsis biggest advantage is his aerial game - yet he's facing one of the best CB's in the air who are also solid at the deck and in Campbell's case possess a great strength and pace. Both of them offer a lot of solidity, whilst obviously a great fit to neutralize him.

Kalle vs Gerets - we've opted for Kalle to start initially on the left and move inside as an modern left forward. Considering Lord Sinister is playing Messi on the right either in 4-2-3-1 or even 5-3-2, Gerets is absolutely vital for their attacking game with his overlapping runs. Kalle will use that free space occasionally so that he can get the ball with his face to the goal and cut in or deliver for AdS or Zico. Kalle as a left forward is the better option than Iniesta(as hard that decision to bench him was) as he can do more damage considering he'll be facing an overlapping full back.

Lord SInister
Playing a 3-5-2 which will shape as a 3-4-2-1 or 3-4-1-2 when attacking and as a 5-3-2 when defending.
-----ST----ST----
-------AMC--------
LWB--MC----MC--RWB
--------------------
----DC-SW-DC----

Defending Tactics:



A back three of Stam-Beckenbauer-Forster will provide a world class central area protection, while Gerets and Ziege (both known for tackling, stamina and speed) when out of possession will join back three centre-back and provide a five-man defense, setting up with the back line into playing with a crescent shape containing either four or five individuals.

The numerical superiority in central defensive areas allowed us to press players aggressively in and around our penalty area. This allows any of the Stam-Beckenbauer-Forster to leave their ‘zone’ (line of three) to deal with any danger they saw fit. Meaning they will leave their positions to put pressure on a striker or advanced midfield player, without the fear of being exposed, as they will be backed by the other two.

Back three of Stam-Beckenbauer-Forster will at times be converted into a back five with wing-backsGerets and Ziege dropping into full-back positions. This five can be changed to a four once when either of the Stam-Beckenbauer-Forster will leave their position to press who ever from enigma's team is charging so within a short time my team will create a defensive line of three, five and then a four. All the other players are marking a space but with designated players to press should they receive the ball.
The presence of three centre-backs, rather than two, also ensures there are greater numbers centrally should a transition and counter-attack occurs.



Libero: Beckenbauer

Beckenbauer will be a designated ‘Libero’. He will be responsible for sweeping and covering behind the two man-marking Stam and , and the position is derived from the Italian name “libero da impegni di marcatura” which translates to “free from man-marking tasks.”

Beckenabauer is one of very few players who can play Libero as well as also be a ball-playing Centre-Back, blessed with adept technique, wonderful game awareness and complete passing distributional ability to launch attacks and penetrate the opposition when possession is regained.

Out of Possession

Preventing central penetration

One of the major reasons why I am going with a 5-3-2 or 3-5-2 system is to be defensively strong and compact in central areas of the pitch, with the back three effectively dealing with enigma’s attackers.

When the enigma will be in the possession of the ball, my team will drop off with the defensive unit becoming compact and Stam and Förster man-marking the opposition forwards and be placed in positions to compete aerially and on the ground.

Beckenbauer will position himself as a Libero to sweep and cover. Our central defense and the midfield will be instructed to be ensuring that appropriate distances provide compactness and restrict the Zico/Di Stefano from exploiting space in-between the lines.

With this enigma will be forced to play the long balls, and to counter that we will position ourselves to compete for any second balls, so that our defense will not be unsettled and penetrated with one pass.

When either of the Stam or Förster(depending on the side) will be competing for the ball whilst the Beckenbauer and One of the Stam/ Förster will drop off to collect any second balls.

Also Tigana/Keane will be advised to switch on and in a position to win the second ball if it is played back into a central area.

When enigma’s team will move possession into a wide area of the field to build play, Stam/ Förster whoever is on the near-side will mark the enigma’s forward and be in a position to compete for the ball, intercept any through balls and delay the first phase of attack.

Near side defender marks tight

When will be defending the ball on the left/right side of the pitch and One of the side CBs(Stam or Förster ) will marks the enigma’s forward tight. While Beckenbauer and other center back will drop off and remain compact. Beckenbauer will be instructed to be in a position to cover if the ball is played in behind wingbacks/side centerbacks on the near-side. Both Gerets and Ziege will be instructed to stay connected with the central defense and drops back to defend the weak-side if play is switched.

With the enigma in possession, one of the Keane/Tigana will be called to be in positions to press the ball and force play wide. This is supported by the arc of Maradona/the other of Tigana/Keane to offer cover and support whilst being in a position to affect and restrict any inside passes. When ball is received by the opposition full back out wingbacks will be in a position to press the ball. Our midfield of Maradona/Keane/Tigana will shift across offering cover, support and compactness infield.

Either of Stam/Forsters marks the enigma's side midfielders tight, as the defensive unit shifts and slides across with the Gerets/Ziege(depending on the side) dropping off and shifting inside to support.

Gerets/Ziege will also be in a position to close down the wide pass to opposition full backs or even intercept the ball and regain possession.
Kocsis and Messi will press and cut off central passes to the enigma's midfield, forcing passes out wide and to the full backs.
As the ball is played to the fullbacks in the above scenario, Keane/Tigana presses aggressively with an approach that cuts off inside passing lines to the opposition midfield.

This forces his fullback to play a pass towards the wide midfielder who is already under pressure from the our wingbacks. we will capitalize on this to attempt to regain possession or force an opposition mistake.


Messi and Kocsis will also support the team out of possession to regain the ball back high up the pitch, by forcing play into areas where pressure can then be applied.

We will set traps upfront to regain possession, with this pressing instructions being instigated by the Messi and Kocsis restricting the inside pass and forcing the enigma to play wide.

We will adopt a man-for-man marking system and leave enigma’s full backs free to receive.

The approach and press from Messi/Kocsis forces the Ayala/Campbell to pass wide to the either Sagnol/Cole. This triggers the pressing cue as the Keane/Tigana now presses aggressively and the Sagnol/Cole is locked on to the Gerets/Ziege if the ball is played down the line. Also being corner in means Sagnol/Cole cannot play in the right/left as this will force the ball out of play, giving us throw-ins.

Messi/Kocsis will also screen inside passes in deeper positions, again forcing play into wide areas to then utilizing the touchline and win the ball back as well as preventing central penetration. Also at times Messi/Kocsis will force play centrally in order to use the overloads in these areas to regain possession and this will at times force enigma to play back to the Goalkeeper. And when this happens, Kocsis closes down the ball whilst screening off the pass back to the Ayala/Sagnol while Messi will also closesCamobell and as the Schumacher will be closed down quickly enigma’s team will look clear the ball centrally in to an area where the my defenders and midfielders will can compete for the ball.

When in possession or attacking


Playing out from the back



When DDG is in possession, the central defense take up a shape to receive with the Förster and Stam splitting to the edge of the penalty area and Beckenbauer taking up an angled position in-field, creating a 3 vs. 2 overload against enigma’s forwards.

If the enigma looks to press high and man-for-man, then space is still available for the Tigana to receive, creating a 4 vs. 3 overload is created.

When enigma’s team will press aggressively and man-for-man to prevent the us playing out from the back.

Then Maradona and Keane move to wide positions to lose their markers and be an option to receive from the Goalkeeper, as defensive screen is still provided in central areas by Tigana and Beckenbauer.

If the Maradona and Keane are tracked by enigma’s team, DDG will now has the option to play directly into the Messi and Kocsis who have space to receive. And both of them have great first touch, so no issue of losing the ball.

Also at times when in possession, the positioning of the Beckenbauer/Stam/Förster can change the angles of attack and opportunities to penetrate the opposition.

Also at times Beckenbauer is in possession of the ball and the Stam/Förster will split wide and offer options to receive, stretching the opposition defensively and creating different angles from which to launch an attack.

Stam/Förster receives and now has options to play forwards into the Keane/Maradona. If they are marked/pressed by Enigma’s team, space is created for a penetrative pass into the Kocis/Messi.

As the ball is on the side of the pitch, enigma will shift towards the ball, creating space on the other side for the wingbacks to receive a long diagonal pass in behind the opposition defensive line.



Gerets and Ziege will provide defensive numbers and balance in defence, and since the criticisms of Ziege is really high, people seem to forget the role he played during his Munich days. prime Ziege was a one man flanker with great speed, stamina, tackling ability and an unerring crossing ability. While Gerets was always a solid right back known for his strong marking and tireless runs.
Their movement and directness will cause enigma's team a problem in terms of whose responsibility it is to mark them or track Gerets/Ziege's runs, which will force his wingers back into full-back positions. With his team to play a virtually a back six when out of possession, meaning that support for their lone striker very hard to come by. And even if they manage to get the ball to Rummeingge, it will be quite a task to take onBeckenbauer, Stam, Forster and Tigana/Keane.

The midfield of Tigana-Keane-Maradona will have the main task is to dominate the Rijkaard/Matthaeus and control the middle third of the pitch, through creating attacking overloads and passing options as well as compacting the central area when without the ball.

The set-up will allow Tigana with the options to pass to either Maradona/Keane or Gerets/Ziege, as Ziege and Gerets will bomb forward, creating options for Tigana to pass, will which in turn flattens enigma's midfield , creating space behind and in front of their midfield line to exploit. When either of Gerets/Ziege receives the ball in wide area, a 3 vs. 2 attacking overload is created as the Gerets/Ziegeis supported byMaradona/Kocsis or Keane/Messi. This will give us the options to combine or can advance forwards to deliver.

If enigma's wide players track the my wingbacks, then attacks can be created through central areas of the field as the opposition are now stretched defensively in an attempt to cover the width of the pitch.

Central Midfield movement of Keane and Maradona creates options for the my midfielders to receive and play Messi/Kocsis or alternatively if they are also marked by the enigma's midfielders then space is now created for a vertical pass in to our forwards by dragging his midfield out of position.
As the ball is played into Kocsis/Messi, Maradona may advance forwards to create attacking overloads and support the attack. When this happens, Keane/Tigana will still be providing defensive security and option to play the ball back.
As the Maradona and Geret/Ziege combine, the Messi or Kocsis(depending on whose side) drops in between the enigmaa's midfield and defensive lines to become an option to receive.

At the same time, the Maradona and Keane advance forwards and this rotation will be a problem for the enigma's defensive unit; if they track the Messi/Kocsis and step out then the Keane/Maradona can receive the ball. If they hold their position and pick up the advancing players then Messi can receive in between the lines and has options ahead of the ball.

Kocsis will tasked with staying on the shoulder of the last opposition defender in order to secure possession in advanced areas of the pitch and link play with their Messi and Maradona(mostly) and Keane at times. He will be positioned high up the pitch we can also look to exploit space in behind the defensive line. He will also be targeted by our wingbacks and Maradona with high balls and crosses to exploit his heading ability

Messi will generally be the creator of the attacks, linking the midfield and Kocsis units to create and score goals. Messi will be given a free role, making it even more difficult for the enigma’s defenders to track, but he will be our main final ball player, who will either play the final balls and finishes chances created by Maradona and co.

Once the ball is played into Messi/Kocsis, we will stretch enigma’s team through the advancing Gerets/Ziege. When Messi/Kocsis will receive the ball to combine with the advancing Gerets/Ziege, our movement will unbalance enigma’s defensive defensive line and allows us to get in behind the defensive unit to deliver from wide areas and finish on goal, as other side forward Kocsis/Messi spins out and makes a run into the penalty area.

Kocsis will hold the attacking line to occupy the Ayala/Campbell, creating space for the Messi to receive in between the lines to create attacking opportunities.

When Maradona is in possession, Gerets/Ziege will advance forwards flattening the enigma’s midfield line. Kocsis will occupy the Campbell and Ayala staying high. With the space created in between enigma’s midfield and defensive lines, allows Messi to receive in between the lines. If the enigma’s defenders step out to track the movement of Messi, Gerets/Ziege continue to advance and can combine with Kocsis as the opposition defence become disjointed. Feeding Kocsis with crosses to head. Both Ziege and Gerets are solid crossers of the ball, especially Ziege who had a mean cross from his left foot.

Key points about my team as spoiler tactics is quite big to read:

  • Perfect roles for players in defense:
    My team has players who are comfortable covering out wide or stepping into midfield, Beckenbauer, the greatest defender of all time, excelled in that libero position, he will be where he's needed. If the team is up against a lone striker, he joins the midfield battle and has more freedom going forward. Next to him is a perfectly complementary stopper/libero pair of the highest quality in Stam and Forster. All three are among the greatest defenders of all time in their roles with Stam as a complete no-nonsense defender, Beckenbauer as the perfect libero and Forster one of the greatest man-marker.

  • Sensational Striking Duo upfront:
    Messi and Kocsis are deadliest duo you can pray not to play against. Kocsis will drag oppositions around, fighting it out with 2 centerbacks on his own, while I don’t think I need to convince people of Messi’s ability to find those gaps, losing his marker or absolutely destorying him with the ball and getting on the end of a through ball or a cross.

  • Midfield and attack:
    Team will be instructed to help each other as much as possible, no conflict between Messi and Maradona as they are told to do different stuffs. . Messi and Maradona will have an eye on the opposing fullbacks and track them back or drop into midfield, so that the Keane and Tigana can help out wide. Kocsis upfront alone will be too much for enigma's defense; he will be constantly harassing opposing Ayala/Campbell throughout the game and often dropped even deeper to help win back the ball in midfield.

  • Threat on the counter:
    It's a deep setup in defense, so having quick players making smart runs is crucial. Tigana and Keane both have a good passing range from deep. Ziege, Messi and Maradona are quick on the counter and Kocsis will be vital with his hold up play upfront. This means my team will be a constant counterattacking threat not only through the middle, but also through the wings.
  • Attacking players connecting with wingbacks:
    Players from midfield will connect with my wingbacks to make sure, they get involved. Maradona and Messi both played central and out wide on both sides in their career. Christian Ziege made countless runs behind the defense to get on the end of Maradona's passes. Gerets is more cautios, more the passer/early crosser from a deeper position, as my wingback pair complements each other without causing any tactical disbalance. Messi as the 2nd forward making the runs behind the fullback on Geret side, while Maradona as the playmaker playing Ziege through, that's the setup out wide and it'll be a danger all game long.
  • Figo threat: While Figo is more than capable of destorying Ziege, but in my set up, Figo will have two issue one is that while he can beat Ziege he will still be covered by a CDM and Forster and secondly with Ziege playing almost as an auxilary winger, he track back to help Sagnol, or else Maradona and Ziege teaming up will be too much for him alone.
  • Matthaus role: While Matthaus had successful outing when he played against Maradona, but let us not forget during those time he was supported by a 3-5-2 tactics, with tireless workers around him, enigma is not playing in that way.
  • Enigma does not have a pure center forward type striker: His team is filled with second forwards, who will look to drop back and get the ball, thus creating issues.
  • Maradona vs Rijkaard is no bainer.
  • Messi and Maradona will have no conflict of interest: As Messi will be getting a more second forward type of role,while Maradona will be our main playmaker, but he is stuck, Messi will come to help.
  • Ziege pre-injury was a different player: Without any doubt the most underrated player in this draft. Peak Ziege was deadly wingback with pace, solid tackling, dangerous in air and fantastic delivery of the ball. He was one of the key players in the 1996 Euro win, Here is a video of him during his peak:
  • Dominating midfield: Playing a 3-5-2 which turns to 3-4-2-1 means we will overload the midfield and dominate it, as all of midfield players, wingbacks and forwards are efficient with the ball and short passing game.
  • Zico and Di Stefano: Two play-making leaders in one team. Remember Messi is not a playmaker/leader in the ilk of Maradona, but Di Stefano and Zico are the same ilk of playmakers and leaders.
 

2mufc0

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So many fantastic battles this game, LS has setup a lot better this time around imo.

But that Enigma midfield :drool:
 

Enigma_87

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To kick things off I'm a bit surprised that LS decided to go with 5-3-2 for this one.

With that formation his width will come predominantly from his wing backs and his best assets in Messi and Maradona will occupy the central zone where they will come right into two of the best defensive players in Matthaus and Rijkaard with Kocsis between Campbell/Ayala.

Obviously a setup like that suits our defensive line as the central area in front of our penalty box will be well saturated when we're defending which makes LS attack a but more predictable and funneling in the center.

I can see the reasoning at relieving Ziege of defensive duties in order not to put him against Ballon D'or winner Figo on the left but Ziege as a main provider of width on the left is really underwhelming in an all time sense and at this level.
 

Moby

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I'm not really convinced by Enigma's back 4, Messi will dominate those two.

LS defense is phenomenal but Enigma's attack is a bit too hot to handle.
 

Enigma_87

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So many fantastic battles this game, LS has setup a lot better this time around imo.

But that Enigma midfield :drool:
Yeah I really can't better that in 4-2-3-1. Not even with Kaiser himself.

I agree that it will be a game with a lot of personal battles, but IMO we're well suited in terms of style to defend against LS threat. I really like my CB pair to counter the Kocsis threat, whilst Forster man marking Di Stefano goes exactly into the role we've put Don Alfredo here - pull him out of position and allow Kalle/Figo to attack the box whilst probably Kaiser is minding Zico.
 

Moby

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I really like my CB pair to counter the Kocsis threat,
Forgetting Messi?

He can play the role he did under Pep and eviscerate Campbell. You'd need Rijkaard and Matthaus both dropping deep to counter Maradona and Messi while having at least one spare man when they inevitably dribble past those players. No matter who you are you ain't got a chance against that combined dribbling level.

Your defense will definitely get exposed by those two especially Messi who can terrorise that back 4 which is a bit underwhelming at this stage.
 

Enigma_87

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I'm not really convinced by Enigma's back 4, Messi will dominate those two.

LS defense is phenomenal but Enigma's attack is a bit too hot to handle.

I think the 5-3-2 tho makes it easier for us to defend and especially Messi/Maradona dropping deep with/without the ball. LS has Kocsis up front between the two CB's whilst Messi/Maradona will come into Matthaus/Rijkaard zone when we're defending.

The obvious Matthaus vs Maradona battle:


There's a reason why Maradona said he's the toughest opponent he ever faced. In the first minute he managed to dispossess him 2-3 times and generally kept him quiet during the game whilst even scoring an excellent free kick in the end. :drool:
 

Moby

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Had another look at both the defenses and think I'll change my mind. Enigma has a great attack but he's facing a great defense while Messi and Maradona together can take that Enigma defense for a ride. I can't see them being kept out without a proper park the bus job and a lot of luck.
 

Enigma_87

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Forgetting Messi?

He can play the role he did under Pep and eviscerate Campbell. You'd need Rijkaard and Matthaus both dropping deep to counter Maradona and Messi while having at least one spare man when they inevitably dribble past those players. No matter who you are you ain't got a chance against that combined dribbling level.

Your defense will definitely get exposed by those two especially Messi who can terrorise that back 4 which is a bit underwhelming at this stage.
Yeah mate but that's exactly it both Matthaus and Rijkaard will be dropping back to counter Maradona and Messi and the same instructions imply for both Maradona and Messi with the ball as LS has mentioned - them dropping deeper. Essentially Messi will be minded by Rijkaard and one of the spare man in that zone.
 

Enigma_87

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Had another look at both the defenses and think I'll change my mind. Enigma has a great attack but he's facing a great defense while Messi and Maradona together can take that Enigma defense for a ride. I can't see them being kept out without a proper park the bus job and a lot of luck.
They won't get many opportunities when they are one on one with our center backs. Matthaus and Rijkaard are as good as it gets when it comes to protecting the back four and they will do just that when we're defending. You have to take into consideration how our CB's are protected especially in the more central approach LS has in mind for this game.
 

Moby

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LS has Kocsis up front between the two CB's whilst Messi/Maradona will come into Matthaus/Rijkaard zone when we're defending.
Messi wont be dropping deep all the time, he has an excellent midfield trio to feed him and Kocsis. He will definitely isolate Campbell here and in a 1v1 the captain stands no chance.

I'm not really impressed by that back 4 in this game and Rijkaard and Matthaus have to deal with a GOAT themselves and wouldn't always be able to help out. Your midfield is great but Roy Keane isn't gonna let them do whatever they want either, especially with Beckenbauer being present in that battle as well. I don't think you have that much of an advantage in midfield due to Kaiser's role and none other than Maradona a part of it.

You needed one top defender there to have a chance vs Messi. As it is every attempt he has against them will result in a definite chance. Leo is set for a MOTM here, having a path without much resistance for him.
 

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Yeah mate but that's exactly it both Matthaus and Rijkaard will be dropping back to counter Maradona and Messi and the same instructions imply for both Maradona and Messi with the ball as LS has mentioned - them dropping deeper. Essentially Messi will be minded by Rijkaard and one of the spare man in that zone.
They also have Keane and Tigana to battle with, and Beckenbauer obviously getting forward when they have the ball. Rijkaard and Matthaus cannot constantly keep tabs on those two without getting outnumbered in midfield. Di Stefano getting taken out of the midfield and being put up front gives their team more room to work as well.

Moreover, Rijkaard isn't going to stop Messi himself either even if that is the instruction. He will definitely have shots against that defense and they look a bit hopeless against Messi dribbling at full pelt with Kocsis being a right menace and Maradona in close presence. You have 3rd/4th tier defenders there.
 

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Messi wont be dropping deep all the time, he has an excellent midfield trio to feed him and Kocsis. He will definitely isolate Campbell here and in a 1v1 the captain stands no chance.

I'm not really impressed by that back 4 in this game and Rijkaard and Matthaus have to deal with a GOAT themselves and wouldn't always be able to help out. Your midfield is great but Roy Keane isn't gonna let them do whatever they want either, especially with Beckenbauer being present in that battle as well. I don't think you have that much of an advantage in midfield due to Kaiser's role and none other than Maradona a part of it.

You needed one top defender there to have a chance vs Messi. As it is every attempt he has against them will result in a definite chance. Leo is set for a MOTM here, having a path without much resistance for him.
I don't think Kaiser's role is really that significant in midfield. Even with the ball you can see him staying back:

-----ST----ST----
-------AMC--------
LWB--MC----MC--RWB
--------------------
----DC-SW-DC----

^^^

LS will at least need 3 men staying back when he's with the ball or risks getting skint on the break.

Matthaus has proven on highest level he can suffocate Maradona both for Germany and for Inter playing against Napoli. Even if Messi beats his man he'll be in a zone that would be saturated with defenders and won't have that much space as you describing certainly not when we're on the back foot.
 

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They also have Keane and Tigana to battle with, and Beckenbauer obviously getting forward when they have the ball. Rijkaard and Matthaus cannot constantly keep tabs on those two without getting outnumbered in midfield. Di Stefano getting taken out of the midfield and being put up front gives their team more room to work as well.

Moreover, Rijkaard isn't going to stop Messi himself either even if that is the instruction. He will definitely have shots against that defense and they look a bit hopeless against Messi dribbling at full pelt with Kocsis being a right menace and Maradona in close presence. You have 3rd/4th tier defenders there.
Keane and Tigana also have been instructed to help out wide and both would have to mind GOATs themselves. They will have their hands full in the defensive phase too.

Di Stefano will track back and be on the move whilst Kalle will move up top when we're off the ball.

Di Stefano did that all the time when deployed as a CF and has certainly the stamina to overload the midfield in the defensive phase, whilst obviously storm forward when we get the ball back.
 

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Usually, don't comment, but feck, what a matchup.
Can see Messi absolutely thrive in behind Kocsis. Can see Di Stefano roaming/dropping back (as some sort of false 9) and drag that defence making room for Figo/Zico/Rummenigge. Di Stefano is imo ideal striker against 3 at the back. Yes, even against that great defence Lord has.

Will vote a little bit later after more discussion.
 

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Matthaus has proven on highest level he can suffocate Maradona both for Germany and for Inter playing against Napoli.
Yeah you can try to man mark him but you'd also be wasting an entire player none other than Matthaus on him which is what happened in those games and he wasn't able to contribute to the midfield like he usually does. And generally I would give Maradona the nod when it comes to unshackling a marker even if it is Lothar. It's why Germany had to remove him from marking Diego because they needed him to get the win and not just cancel Diego out which makes it a catch-22 situation. Man marking is the only way he has a dream of stopping Diego.
 

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Anyway, just think that back 4 is the weakest part on this GOAT-filled pitch and usually against 2/3 Tier 1 players of all time it would not withstand that damage.
 

Enigma_87

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Yeah you can try to man mark him but you'd also be wasting an entire player none other than Matthaus on him which is what happened in those games and he wasn't able to contribute to the midfield like he usually does. And generally I would give Maradona the nod when it comes to unshackling a marker even if it is Lothar. It's why Germany had to remove him from marking Diego because they needed him to get the win and not just cancel Diego out which makes it a catch-22 situation. Man marking is the only way he has a dream of stopping Diego.
Yeah of course, but Matthaus is probably the best man for the job in cancelling Diego out. Sure he'll have a lot on the defensive end here, but let's not forget Germany didn't have the likes of AdS, Zico and Figo complimenting Kalle up front to get the win.
 

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Anyway, just think that back 4 is the weakest part on this GOAT-filled pitch and usually against 2/3 Tier 1 players of all time it would not withstand that damage.
Well you have Ziege on the other end being tier 4-5 which you are overlooking :angel:

I don't think there is much between Campbell and Stam/Forster. Ayala defensively is also very close to that level IMO. Sure Kaiser is a great presence but on the other hand Gerets and Ziege themselves aren't winning a one on one battle with Figo/Kalle.

Also you have 2 runners with the ball in Diego and Messi occupying nearly the same space. Maradona is great in this set up and would thrive in it, but Messi is not the main man here and is far from tiki taka set up where he can isolate Campbell when you said when the attack is being build around him.

Think Messi starting from the right is better than the SS role when he has Maradona as #10, at least there he will have more space to receive the ball and operate in.
 

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I don't think there is much between Campbell and Stam/Forster. Ayala defensively is also very close to that level IMO.
Nah. Campbell was a very good athlete but that's not enough to contain Messi or Kocsis either. Both are absolute goal machines who will score in every way possible. Stam in the PL itself far surpassed Campbell let alone Forster who's a level above. And don't forget, there's Beckenbauer in there!

Roberto Ayala? The guy got embarrassed by Michael Owen. Messi would be having a laugh there.

Sorry but that defense sticks out like a sore thumb (as does Ziege of course) among the company they are in. Ziege being a wingback is in a position where his mistakes can be covered by those behind him while Campbell or Ayala getting beaten is game over. And everyone gets beaten by Messi.
 

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I'm blinded by all these fecking GOATS at the minute and I'll need some time to process this, but my first thought was that whoever faces the winner of this in the semis is a bit screwed.
Imagine this in the old school rules of picking reinforcements from your opponent. :lol:
 

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Nah. Campbell was a very good athlete but that's not enough to contain Messi or Kocsis either. Both are absolute goal machines who will score in every way possible. Stam in the PL itself far surpassed Campbell let alone Forster who's a level above. And don't forget, there's Beckenbauer in there!

Roberto Ayala? The guy got embarrassed by Michael Owen. Messi would be having a laugh there.

Sorry but that defense sticks out like a sore thumb (as does Ziege of course) among the company they are in. Ziege being a wingback is in a position where his mistakes can be covered by those behind him while Campbell or Ayala getting beaten is game over. And everyone gets beaten by Messi.
Aside from United bias Stam also had some pretty underwhelming games and at international level Campbell did pretty well against Rivaldo/Ronaldo/Ronaldinho only England to be taken out because of that Goofy goal.

Ayala himself was a top defender winning 2 La Liga's with Valencia and CL finalist during a La Liga era which was topped with attacking talent as well.

If we're going by tiers Matthaus and Rijkaard are the absolute elite midfield tier whilst Keano and Tigana are the one below. Cole as part of my back for is also a level or two above Ziege as well so naturally there will be advantages here and there for both sides.

Again Messi is not in his Barca leading role and main playmaker whilst also being the focal point of the attack, he won't receive always those balls and opportunities but that would be Maradona. The current set up is clearly for Maradona being the main man whilst Messi is playing a secondary role.

Ziege as a wingback is not excused for sticking out either, him being beaten will create numerical advantage with pulling a CB out of position and you have the same GOAT goal machines at the other end to punish them.

Let's not forget that Messi will not be having a go directly against those CB's and Rijkaard is also there being the first line of defence with Cole filling in if he goes wide.

Messi for Argentina could easily get frustrated, especially in a setup like the one above. Even the setup you mentioned is far from what we're seeing here and you have to take account how much time on the ball he'll have.

I don't think LS claims that he'll dominate the midfield hold water considering they are up against Rijkaard/Matthaus combo.
 

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Usually, don't comment, but feck, what a matchup.
Can see Messi absolutely thrive in behind Kocsis. Can see Di Stefano roaming/dropping back (as some sort of false 9) and drag that defence making room for Figo/Zico/Rummenigge. Di Stefano is imo ideal striker against 3 at the back. Yes, even against that great defence Lord has.

Will vote a little bit later after more discussion.
Always glad to see new faces in the discussion and thanks for your contribution mate.

The role Di Stefano has is indeed ideal for this matchup which I also tried to underline in the OP, especially when LS sets up with two markers at the back and a libero. Zico would also have some joy in the hole without a designated marker whilst Di Stefano would drag defenders around the pitch to tire them out and also relieve space for Kalle/Figo cutting in.
 

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Ah the showdown!
I feel SInister has advantage in the CBs while Enigma's Rijkaard-Matthaus combo is just wonderful. The 5-3-2 maximizes the Argentine GOATs influence together while Enigma's front four is ferocious. So many interesting ideas in this match
 

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I am not sure about Rummenigge's role here. He seem to be placed as wide as Figo on the left side, but wasn't he mostly a central / right leaning forward ?
 

Enigma_87

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I am not sure about Rummenigge's role here. He seem to be placed as wide as Figo on the left side, but wasn't he mostly a central / right leaning forward ?
He's in a LWF here, not left winger or outside winger but more of a forward that will be cutting in(tried to depict it with the sole arrow pointing inwards). He could play anywhere in attack - two footed and either as a second striker/winger or up top. One of the most complete forwards in the game.

He was right footed and the idea in placing him on the left was to use his better foot when attacking the box - a bit like the modern wide forwards.

Kalle played as a wide forward right and left(predominantly right) in a 4-3-3 or up top on his own where he was pretty clinical as well.

His role is to attack the space AdS will leave when he roams forward and also be up top on the counter when AdS tracks back to defend - a role which is IMO very well suited for him.
 

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I preferred Di Stefano’s role in the last game.

Not too sure what to make of him and Zico together in this set up. I don’t think it’s particularly complimentary personally.
 

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I preferred Di Stefano’s role in the last game.

Not too sure what to make of him and Zico together in this set up. I don’t think it’s particularly complimentary personally.
Thanks for the input. I think their roles are pretty well suited and won't step on their toes as they are pretty different players compared to Messi/Maradona - both of them being focal points in attack and runners with the ball when occupying the same space.
 

Theon

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Thanks for the input. I think their roles are pretty well suited and won't step on their toes as they are pretty different players compared to Messi/Maradona - both of them being focal points in attack and runners with the ball when occupying the same space.
Really?

I think Messi and Maradona is a more complimentary pairing personally in these set ups. They’re both playing in lots of space behind a genuine #9 in Kocsis who should occupy the centre backs well and create space for those two to operate.

I can see them linking nicely and causing problems when running at that back line.

Not sure personally on the Di Stefano / Zico roles being well suited. For me ideally you would have one of them behind a proper #9. I thought the previous role for Di Stefano was great but can’t really picture this.
 

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Really?

I think Messi and Maradona is a more complimentary pairing personally in these set ups. They’re both playing in lots of space behind a genuine #9 in Kocsis who should occupy the centre backs well and create space for those two to operate.

I can see them linking nicely and causing problems when running at that back line.

Not sure personally on the Di Stefano / Zico roles being well suited. For me ideally you would have one of them behind a proper #9. I thought the previous role for Di Stefano was great but can’t really picture this.
We can agree to disagree there then. Messi and Maradona behind the striker centrally won't have a lot of space to operate because we're playing with double pivot and both Rijkaard and Matthaus would be there as well. As it is in the setup the biggest width providers of that team are Gerets and Ziege who at this stage are not ideal considering all the GOAT's on the pitch.

I think people think there will be a lot of space, which i find odd when there are not one but two defensively great players shielding the center backs..:confused:

Zico and Di Stefano are with well defined roles and also not the same runners with the ball like Messi/Maradona, nor Di Stefano at that position.

Playing with a designated #9 up top when the opposition is putting 2 markers and a libero is IMO the worst possible scenario for me. A more complete and mobile frontline which can pull the defenders out of their natural positions is the way to break behind them.
 

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Woah! Don't usually comment in match-threads, but I had no idea these teams were so stacked...kinda feel bad for drawing them against each other at the Quarterfinal stage.

Enigma's tactics leave more to the imagination, but at first glance, I like the individual and collective personnel fits - his attack seems to be delectably balanced in terms of the assignments. Lord SInister opts for the trademark 5212 with Maradona - pretty straightforward because we know how that shapes as regards the nitty-gritty mechanics, and he has a good cast to make this work. Reckon the performances of this quartet will define the match (in spite of the obvious and oftentimes distracting presence of Diego):

Di Stéfano: probably the ideal False 9 for orchestrating Enigma's attack in terms of disorienting Lord SInister's defense and pulling Förster/Stam out to create pockets of space for Zico and Kalle - without a tremendous performance from him in that regard, the front 4 could fail to deliver against a fairly complementary and robust central defensive trio.
Matthäus: will have to chip in with a fair deal of defensive work to stop Maradona (good thing he has a proven record against him), but ultimately - his offensive forays could make or break Enigma's scheme when it comes to providing sustained thrusts from midfield.

Beckenbauer: will have to outwit and outmaneuver Di Stéfano, and link defense to midfield to circumvent the central threat of not just the Don, but Zico as well. Tough assignment, but it's Der Kaizer we're talking about - so it's going to be a titanic struggle between two gods of football - not least from an organisational and cerebral standpoint.
Messi: you could argue that of all the great attackers on show, he faces the most favorable matchup (rate Campbell - even in an all-time context, but Messi in a free-ish and simplistic forward role will put you to the sword if you give him even an inch, so Sol will have to be veeeeeery disciplined).

Will definitely follow the discussions - should be a cracking game. Good luck, both! :)
 

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Two sensational teams. I feel sorry for the rest of you mugs.
Nah. Campbell was a very good athlete but that's not enough to contain Messi or Kocsis either. Both are absolute goal machines who will score in every way possible. Stam in the PL itself far surpassed Campbell let alone Forster who's a level above. And don't forget, there's Beckenbauer in there!

Roberto Ayala? The guy got embarrassed by Michael Owen. Messi would be having a laugh there.

Sorry but that defense sticks out like a sore thumb (as does Ziege of course) among the company they are in. Ziege being a wingback is in a position where his mistakes can be covered by those behind him while Campbell or Ayala getting beaten is game over. And everyone gets beaten by Messi.
I disagree with your Campbell assessment and unlike Stam he put together some stellar international tournaments at his peak.

Still, agree with the thrust of your point. As much as I rate him and Ayala higher than most of the Caf do, I don't either will be in their element against such incredible dribbling talent searing through the middle.
 

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@Invictus cheers mate. That's mighty fair and fine balanced review, but just wanted to add Figo vs Ziege which is overlooked just because the latter is at wing back position.

As you mentioned with a free roaming Di Stefano there and Kalle a numerical advantage that Figo can create would leave pockets for both when one of the stoppers leaves his position to intercept and that is a zone that we really are looking to exploit.
 

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In close matches like these it’s arguably the midfield where the battle is won. I really rate Keane and Tigana but @Enigma_87 wins the midfield battle all the time.

Messi and Maradona will get joy against the defense but so would Di Stefano and Zico.

Defenses for both teams have flaws but I think in an all time draft with the players around, Ziege sticks out like a sore thumb. Easily the least impressive player in both of the defenses. Tigana would constantly have to help out there which would leave gaps in the middle.

Tough to call but I like the set up of @Enigma_87 better and voting for him.
 

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LS's setup looks so much cleaner this time around, with more space for Messi and Maradona, and that back three looks really well-balanced. Ziege is better-protected this time too, although he remains the obvious weak link on the pitch vs Figo.

On Enigma's side, Matthaus alongside Rijkaard is pretty much as good as it gets as a two man midfield, but the overall set up somehow doesn't seem as compelling to me as the first round version. No issues with Di Stefano as the nominal No. 9. From my understanding he made his name in Argentina and Columbia playing as a (slightly) more orthodox centre forward, and was much faster than in his Real Madrid career, if not quite the same all-encompassing influence. In fact, I'd suggest specifying that version of Di Stefano could be a worthwhile idea to consider, firstly for more clarity about his role and secondly because that younger version played alongside a prolific and highly dominant playmaker in Pedernera. Figo obviously fits his role perfectly, so I guess it's Rummenigge who looks slightly shoehorned in, playing on his 'wrong' side and just not seeming to add to things tactically to the extent that Iniesta did in the previous set up.

That said, LS simply had more scope to improve tactically from first time around IMO, so that can't be held againgst Enigma. So I'm still not much closer to deciding who to vote for.
 

Enigma_87

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LS's setup looks so much cleaner this time around, with more space for Messi and Maradona, and that back three looks really well-balanced. Ziege is better-protected this time too, although he remains the obvious weak link on the pitch vs Figo.

On Enigma's side, Matthaus alongside Rijkaard is pretty much as good as it gets as a two man midfield, but the overall set up somehow doesn't seem as compelling to me as the first round version. No issues with Di Stefano as the nominal No. 9. From my understanding he made his name in Argentina and Columbia playing as a (slightly) more orthodox centre forward, and was much faster than in his Real Madrid career, if not quite the same all-encompassing influence. In fact, I'd suggest specifying that version of Di Stefano could be a worthwhile idea to consider, firstly for more clarity about his role and secondly because that younger version played alongside a prolific and highly dominant playmaker in Pedernera. Figo obviously fits his role perfectly, so I guess it's Rummenigge who looks slightly shoehorned in, playing on his 'wrong' side and just not seeming to add to things tactically to the extent that Iniesta did in the previous set up.

That said, LS simply had more scope to improve tactically from first time around IMO, so that can't be held againgst Enigma. So I'm still not much closer to deciding who to vote for.

Aye you got it right mate.

Di Stefano started as a CF alongside a dominant playmaker in Pedernera a quote from the piece from the last game:

What is important is the consideration of the development of Di Stefano’s player type throughout his career. At La Maquina, according to the reports and research results at least, he acted goal-oriented in his movements, and generally focused on the last third of the field, but was not particularly defensive or quite as involved in the deeper buildup game as he was years later. His prime has also been lost: it is said that at Millonarios in Colombia he was even more powerful, dynamic, and had a greater presence than later at Real. Video sources to substantiate this, however, are missing.

But they are unnecessary. Alfredo Di Stéfano was great. He was an outstanding football player who should serve as a model for many players today: disciplined, ambitious, individually outstanding, but also a player who made the collective stronger. Di Stéfano was not only the first “total” football player, but is to this day the total soccer player par excellence.

“Alfredo Di Stéfano had a peak Goal Impact of 189. An incredible value at that time. Still the seventh highest peak Goal Impact of All Time “. – Jörg Seidel of Goal Impact, the Bobby Fischer of football and the Goal Impact metric (only one player from the 90s had a higher number than Di Stéfano, his teammate Francisco Gento)
So yeah he was not the defensive powerhouse in the early years but was more explosive in his game and an all rounded goal threat in the attacking third. Still he was a prominent figure and changed the way River played to a more direct rather than the possession oriented style they used before.

We're looking at the pre Puskas-early Real and late Millioneros version, which by all accounts is his physical peak but not the defensive powerhouse in his late (Puskas era) years.

Still dropping back and being constantly on the move as also helping the midfield is part of the game but not to the same extend as in the previous game against P-nut, neither I'm stressing on that as him being a decisive figure in the midfield battle - in which I think we have the advantage with Rijkaard and Matthaus.

Not to create confusion as you mentioned once again this is the late Millionarios, early Real version up to 1957 where he was the clubs leading goalscorer before Puskas came into play.
 
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