Dominoes draft: QF - Mazhar13/2mufc0 vs Pat_mustard

[antohan]

Pffffff... I see mazhar having a bit more quality in certain areas, lots of players I love but also find some are not really in their element/absolute best.

Pat I have less love for but can clearly see how everyone would perform. Crucially, the defensive side of things is watertight. The only head to head he is decidedly suspect is Gerrard vs. Robbo, but can't see that being enough.

 

[mazhar13]

It's not peak Montero either.

Well yes, of course. I thought that it would have been a given.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Pffffff... I see mazhar having a bit more quality in certain areas, lots of players I love but also find some are not really in their element/absolute best.

Pat I have less love for but can clearly see how everyone would perform. Crucially, the defensive side of things is watertight. The only head to head he is decidedly suspect is Gerrard vs. Robbo, but can't see that being enough.

The Sammer reinforcement really shored things up for me, which was vital as pretty much every attack left in the competition was very strong.

Tbh I haven't particularly loved this team myself at any stage from the early drafting onward, but it has ended up being quite a robust and coherent unit. Mazhar's team on the other hand, has fecking Baggio as the main man in an all-time pool, finally, with the likes of Robbo and Seeler in there too . If I wasn't playing them that's wet dream material for me.

 

[2mufc0]

Will be difficult to come back from that scoreline. Congrats @Pat_Mustard you've built a excellent team, best of luck for the rest of the draft hope you make it as far as possible.

 

[Moby]

Love Pat's use of Gerrard here, should be in his element.

He'll be in his element, but would you say that's necessarily beneficial for the team?

At Liverpool, the Roy of the Rovers stuff made sense given the rest of the team. He was head and shoulders above the rest and most of the time he could freely take as many shots as he wanted without criticism.

In a fantasy team, it is different when he's surrounded by massive talent. Him giving up that highlight reel role and taking a back seat in offense allowing others to take over is a questionable proposition at best. Because in a team like this, if he goes on like that ignoring others who may be in better positions or perhaps better suited to make the final plays then it will lead to frustration for others.

Gerrard off the ball is a good asset to have but on the ball I consider him quite selfish and someone who always wants to be THE MAN. When it comes off it looks great and he looks like a one man team but when it doesn't it looks horrible. And he's not Messi who can take the responsibility in any game and deliver 99% of the time.

 

[2mufc0]

I don't have it in me to launch a full-scale defence of Gerrard for obvious reasons, but I think most of us would consider that an overly harsh appraisal of his career. He's put in some stellar big-match performances, and displayed more in the way of consistency and longevity than many draft favourites.

I wouldn't say it's harsh i've admitted he's been a good player in periods, but Moby's post sums things up quite well with regards to his need to be the main man, which his career has shown he's never been good enough to do consistently, and he's definitely a tier below the other midfielders on show. I would agree with SAF's assessment that he's never really been a top player.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I wouldn't say it's harsh i've admitted he's been a good player in periods, but Moby's post sums things up quite well with regards to his need to be the main man, which his career has shown he's never been good enough to do consistently, and he's definitely a tier below the other midfielders on show. I would agree with SAF's assessment that he's never really been a top player.

As much as I can't stand the player, I'd say he at least merits somewhere between the two views.... He's not world class but tbf, no way is he rubbish (vomits). CL finals, FA Cup semis/finals have seen an end product.

Like me, I don't see SAF as a 100% unbiased party.

 

[2mufc0]

As much as I can't stand the player, I'd say he at least merits somewhere between the two views.... He's not world class but tbf, no way is he rubbish (vomits). CL finals, FA Cup semis/finals have seen an end product.

Like me, I don't see SAF as a 100% unbiased party.

Aye would agree with the part about being in the middle, didn't say he's rubbish either! He's a good player on his day which is reflected in his cup records.

You have admitted he wasn't WC and i think that's what SAF meant when he said he wasn't a 'top top player'. He wouldn't even get into the top 10 midfielders during his playing time imo.

 

[idmanager]

Great lineups with so many good fits. Sadly missed most of the discussions for QFs.
Almost everyone got great replacements to make the lineups so much better.

Both central defenses could be made better. Sammer should have been placed below the 2 CB's to make the defense look stronger aesthetically and tactically more sensible..
I don't think he is a tip of the diamond kind of player. An arrow above should do the job well and make it look much better.

Usual things from last round. Great usage of Thurram+Gerrard. Love Robson+Redondo+Oblak.

Went with Pat because I don't really see the Picchi led defense working well in a setup with Boateng as a tucked in right back.
This is not the right formation for that tactically defensively or offensively.
Defensively, you would ideally want a hard working right winger.
Offensively I have to still check the videos on Oblak the guys have posted, but I do doubt if he would have the impact Gerrard would with a defensive RB, considering he was left footed as has been pointed out.

 

[Gio]

He'll be in his element, but would you say that's necessarily beneficial for the team?

At Liverpool, the Roy of the Rovers stuff made sense given the rest of the team. He was head and shoulders above the rest and most of the time he could freely take as many shots as he wanted without criticism.

In a fantasy team, it is different when he's surrounded by massive talent. Him giving up that highlight reel role and taking a back seat in offense allowing others to take over is a questionable proposition at best. Because in a team like this, if he goes on like that ignoring others who may be in better positions or perhaps better suited to make the final plays then it will lead to frustration for others.

Gerrard off the ball is a good asset to have but on the ball I consider him quite selfish and someone who always wants to be THE MAN. When it comes off it looks great and he looks like a one man team but when it doesn't it looks horrible. And he's not Messi who can take the responsibility in any game and deliver 99% of the time.

I think that over-eggs the extent to which Gerrard played like Roy of the Rovers. He had that in his locker and was often the match winner, particularly when his team was under the cosh. And there was the exceptional game where he resorted to bad habit hero mode such as the famous Chelsea tie, but it hardly defines him as a player. Beneath that you still have a physically imposing and excellent mover of the ball who still contributed a hell of a lot both off the ball and in the middle third of the park. His assist totals - in double figures for most of his career and typically in the top 3-5 or so in the Premier League - don't really back up the notion that he was hugely selfish and shot every time he got within 35 yards of the opposition goal.

 

[Moby]

His assist totals - in double figures for most of his career and typically in the top 3-5 or so in the Premier League - don't really back up the notion that he was hugely selfish and shot every time he got within 35 yards of the opposition goal.

That is not very impressive for a central midfielder in my opinion and here's why. His tendencies to go heroic aren't just limited to taking unwarranted shots but also his love for hollywood balls quite a few times some of which are straight to the opposition. Again, that works in an average team who have put him responsible of scoring as well as creating, but I don't regard him as a very creative player who is a genius with his passing and vision. In this game, again, that would be a problem when someone playing in that position should be playing a more disciplined role letting others do the majority of the creative and attacking work. Does he have it in him to give up those tendencies and let others get their names on the final pass/goal? Or will his hero-ball be a distraction and cost the team possession while not letting the better players on the ball get more time on it?

No doubt about his off the ball game and the all action qualities he brings to the table but I would say the need of the hour here is a more disciplined, technically astute team player who has better decision making and usually lets the playmaker get on with it while concentrating more on his defending, covering the midfield and supporting the primary offensive unit. In that Milan diamond you won't have Seedorf or Gattuso concentrating playing their own game and taking shots or attempting hollywood balls as per their will, but rather give it to Pirlo or Kaka as soon as possible. The one quality Gerrard would be great with is driving with the ball, but if he tries too much to get that final action himself be it a goal or an assist attempt then it would distract from what the team is trying to achieve. Basically he needs to be a low usage player here, while he has been a very usage player for all his career.

 

[mazhar13]

Well, I guess it's all over now. Congrats on the comprehensive victory, @Pat_Mustard. If you can get an upgrade on Gerrard, you should be fine to go all the way.

 

[Gio]

That is not very impressive for a central midfielder in my opinion and here's why. His tendencies to go heroic aren't just limited to taking unwarranted shots but also his love for hollywood balls quite a few times some of which are straight to the opposition. Again, that works in an average team who have put him responsible of scoring as well as creating, but I don't regard him as a very creative player who is a genius with his passing and vision. In this game, again, that would be a problem when someone playing in that position should be playing a more disciplined role letting others do the majority of the creative and attacking work. Does he have it in him to give up those tendencies and let others get their names on the final pass/goal? Or will his hero-ball be a distraction and cost the team possession while not letting the better players on the ball get more time on it?

No doubt about his off the ball game and the all action qualities he brings to the table but I would say the need of the hour here is a more disciplined, technically astute team player who has better decision making and usually lets the playmaker get on with it while concentrating more on his defending, covering the midfield and supporting the primary offensive unit. In that Milan diamond you won't have Seedorf or Gattuso concentrating playing their own game and taking shots or attempting hollywood balls as per their will, but rather give it to Pirlo or Kaka as soon as possible. The one quality Gerrard would be great with is driving with the ball, but if he tries too much to get that final action himself be it a goal or an assist attempt then it would distract from what the team is trying to achieve. Basically he needs to be a low usage player here, while he has been a very usage player for all his career.

I can see the argument you're making and how it would hamper a more talented team. But I'm not really sure where the evidence is that he couldn't play with other good creative players. The only ones we can measure it off at club level would have been Xabi, Murphy, McCallister and perhaps Suarez. Certainly he dovetailed beautifully with Alonso for instance and let him get on with the job of creating from deep, and he forged good partnerships in midfield with Gary Mac and Murphy even from what I remember. Both Murphy and McCallister rate him exceptionally highly so it's not as if their own games were squeezed by Gerrard's style of play . And he was the top assist provider in the league largely feeding Suarez in 2013-14.

 

[Ecstatic]

The result is harsh. I guess we had 3 pages about Boateng (not his best role), Oblak (not very known so "underrated") and Gerrard (pool player)

 

[Ecstatic]

Both teams are obviously better on the left side.

 

[Ecstatic]

@mazhar13 @2mufc0

I can see you had this team in the 1st game.

I think you should have kept this 3-5-2 but with the following trio: Baggio #10 + Sanchez + Seeler

Edit: I will read the discussions and watch videos about Oblak if available

 

[mazhar13]

I think you should have kept this 3-5-2 but with the following trio: Baggio #10 + Sanchez + Seeler

The reason we did not drop Oblak is because we wanted to not overburden Robson with the defensive responsibility. We expected Pat to play with a diamond, so we decided to keep Oblak in order to not have our midfield get outnumbered.

After some reflection, however, I think we'd have been better off replacing Sánchez with Camoranesi. Seeler is still a great striker, himself, and we'd have some width for Pat's team to worry about, too.

 

[Ecstatic]

The reason we did not drop Oblak is because we wanted to not overburden Robson with the defensive responsibility. We expected Pat to play with a diamond, so we decided to keep Oblak in order to not have our midfield get outnumbered.

After some reflection, however, I think we'd have been better off replacing Sánchez with Camoranesi. Seeler is still a great striker, himself, and we'd have some width for Pat's team to worry about, too.

Thanks for the answer.

In hindsight, you are right: it would have been a great counter-attacking side and I'm a fan of players like Camoranesi. Gerrard would have suffered and played against his nature.

The issue is I guess some voters have considered the positioning of Boateng as a pretext to vote against our team without taking account of all the other aspects.

I was watching some of the videos below so it's refreshing to have Oblak under the spotlight

Some videos showcases Oblak's play style, he's normally all over the pitch.

In this video he's playing RCM, being left footed doesn't effect him much.


Some other short videos for those interested:

 

[2mufc0]

@mazhar13 @2mufc0

I can see you had this team in the 1st game.

I think you should have kept this 3-5-2 but with the following trio: Baggio #10 + Sanchez + Seeler

Edit: I will read the discussions and watch videos about Oblak if available

Yeah 532 would have been better in hindsight.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Will be difficult to come back from that scoreline. Congrats @Pat_Mustard you've built a excellent team, best of luck for the rest of the draft hope you make it as far as possible.

Well, I guess it's all over now. Congrats on the comprehensive victory, @Pat_Mustard. If you can get an upgrade on Gerrard, you should be fine to go all the way.

Thanks lads. I enjoyed the discussion here and I thought the scoreline would be closer. Kudos for giving Baggio the prominent role he really deserves but rarely gets.

 

[Ecstatic]

Thanks lads. I enjoyed the discussion here and I thought the scoreline would be closer. Kudos for giving Baggio the prominent role he really deserves but rarely gets.

Kudos for giving the Stade de Reims version of Kopa

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Kudos for giving the Stade de Reims version of Kopa

Thanks mate, I thought you'd like seeing him reach this stage of the draft. I can exclusively reveal he's definitely starting my semi-final match too .

 

[Moby]

Give Pat a trophy already for winning two games in an all time draft despite fielding Gerrard.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Give Pat a trophy already for winning two games in an all time draft despite fielding Gerrard.

I'm amazed tbh, and a little ashamed. At least I've got the option of dropping him now.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Whether Starfish is good enough to be the main driving force in an all-time fantasy context is debatable.

But he could probably play as such, role wise, in this particular setup. He wouldn't get on anyone's tits or perform tasks someone else would do better. He's capable of working alongside a playmaker of one kind or another (Kopa), and the other midfielders seem well suited to his «heroic» style.

There's no evidence that Starfish will do well in anything like a subdued role, which is normally the problem with him in a fantasy team - but it doesn't apply here.

Pat's problem is obvious, though: Starfish as the driving force just won't fly when the truly silly GOAT combos line up on the other side.

 

[Righteous Steps]

That is not very impressive for a central midfielder in my opinion and here's why. His tendencies to go heroic aren't just limited to taking unwarranted shots but also his love for hollywood balls quite a few times some of which are straight to the opposition. Again, that works in an average team who have put him responsible of scoring as well as creating, but I don't regard him as a very creative player who is a genius with his passing and vision. In this game, again, that would be a problem when someone playing in that position should be playing a more disciplined role letting others do the majority of the creative and attacking work. Does he have it in him to give up those tendencies and let others get their names on the final pass/goal? Or will his hero-ball be a distraction and cost the team possession while not letting the better players on the ball get more time on it?

No doubt about his off the ball game and the all action qualities he brings to the table but I would say the need of the hour here is a more disciplined, technically astute team player who has better decision making and usually lets the playmaker get on with it while concentrating more on his defending, covering the midfield and supporting the primary offensive unit. In that Milan diamond you won't have Seedorf or Gattuso concentrating playing their own game and taking shots or attempting hollywood balls as per their will, but rather give it to Pirlo or Kaka as soon as possible. The one quality Gerrard would be great with is driving with the ball, but if he tries too much to get that final action himself be it a goal or an assist attempt then it would distract from what the team is trying to achieve. Basically he needs to be a low usage player here, while he has been a very usage player for all his career.

Well he used to do the exact same in regards to giving it to Suarez or Owen, or allowing Alonso to playmake, his a much better passer than Gattuso so he doesn't need to limit what he can do, Ancelotti himself the creator of that same diamond said he wanted Gerrard to come to Milan during that same time. People over egg those points to the point its actually untrue, in the same guise a player like Mendieta when being compared to English based players would be propelled as some complete midfielder with no faults.

 

[Ecstatic]

Thanks mate, I thought you'd like seeing him reach this stage of the draft. I can exclusively reveal he's definitely starting my semi-final match too .

Give Pat a trophy already for winning two games in an all time draft despite fielding Gerrard.

Award fully deserved given his odd positioning.