I could have chanced Gerrard in that role as some sort of second half CL final 2005 tactic but it would have been a stretch, and I wasn't convinced about placing Sammer in a 3 man central defence with a defensive sweeper like Schulz.
Dominoes draft: QF - Mazhar13/2mufc0 vs Pat_mustard
- Thread starter Tuppet
- Start date
@Pat_Mustard
Re:Gerrrard
For me I see him the way you described Breitner and Oblak. His strength isn't holding position or maintaining shape. He has a tendency to roam as much or more than Oblak and I would say a greater tendency to be selfish than Oblak or Breitner.
Re:Gerrrard
For me I see him the way you described Breitner and Oblak. His strength isn't holding position or maintaining shape. He has a tendency to roam as much or more than Oblak and I would say a greater tendency to be selfish than Oblak or Breitner.
They weren't bad IMO. His positioning was good and he could put his foot in. Not great but perfectly fine with Gerrard and Vieira there.
Some good points here, I know where you are coming from regarding Redondo, but we have Robbo and Oblak who can carry the ball forward, and then to Baggio to do his thing.
They definitely can and Redondo would still work well here, but at his best he would be afforded some freedom to take out the entire opposition midfield with runs from deep. But then he used to do that despite being the lone DM so if anyone can pull it off it's him.
Regarding the other two blokes, I would prefer a more defensive minded player where Oblak is. Robbo is a complete CM and can provide whatever is the need of the hour and is fairly competent drifting wide as well but given he would be free to attack, having another attack minded player there is a bit of overkill and look off balanced. A Gattuso there would be perfect.
He's not as attack-minded as you think. Having seen several clips of him + the Brazil-Yugoslavia match, he's a much more defensively astute player than I ever thought. In that Brazil match in particular, he would often drop deep to cover for Bogicevic going forward and tightly cover Rivellino and Jairzinho. These aren't the traits of your typical attacking midfielder. That's why I feel comfortable having him in my team as he can really unleash both Robbo and Redondo.
Fair enough.
Strikers = Pat
Midfield = Mazhar
Fullbacks = Pat
Centre backs = Even
GKs = Even
Pat wins 3-2.
This isn't the best way (or even a good way) to break down a match but I honestly can see both sides working really well and am having a hard time separating them. I prefer Mazhars midfield but as has been mentioned, I suspect that may be down to personal preference (love Baggio, hate Gerrard).
In the end, Gio probably hit the nail on the head when he said Romario swings this one. Just. If I didn't want to see what the score is so much I would probably refrain from voting at all!
Midfield = Mazhar
Fullbacks = Pat
Centre backs = Even
GKs = Even
Pat wins 3-2.
This isn't the best way (or even a good way) to break down a match but I honestly can see both sides working really well and am having a hard time separating them. I prefer Mazhars midfield but as has been mentioned, I suspect that may be down to personal preference (love Baggio, hate Gerrard).
In the end, Gio probably hit the nail on the head when he said Romario swings this one. Just. If I didn't want to see what the score is so much I would probably refrain from voting at all!
@mazhar13 Thanks for the Oblak vid. He looks a handy box-to-box type player. Although the vid shows he can do some stuff wide right it doesn't look his natural position which is a bit of an issue when you need specialists to make a diamond work.
Some videos showcases Oblak's play style, he's normally all over the pitch.
In this video he's playing RCM, being left footed doesn't effect him much.
Some other short videos for those interested:
In this video he's playing RCM, being left footed doesn't effect him much.
Some other short videos for those interested:
I think that the balance is a little off in Vieira-Sammer-Gerrard midfield, but the attack and defence looks simply amazing, can't vote against Pat here.
Just posted some more vids on Oblak, he's deployed RCM several times, check them out if you have time.
Not a good way of doing it i agree!
But i would say strikers are even, Romario > Sanchez, Seeler > Sheva.
Will have to think about this one. Pat has a great team, but really love that diamond in midfield for 2mufc0/mazhar.
@diarm you sounded like your vote could go either way, so i will try to change your mind
. Do you agree with the striker assessment? Which also doesn't take the great Baggio into consideration. If you let me know your doubts about why we wouldn't win i'll try to explain otherwise.That's it really. I knew I was highly likely to come up against the likes of Baggio, Platini, Cruyff, Zico/Di Stefano or Maradona/Messi. In that context it made sense to make my defensive shape as robust as possible, even at the expense of some attacking fluidity. And, much as I rate him, Veron is a divisive figure in drafts at any stage, but sadly regresses toward the liability stage the deeper into a competition we go, particularly in an all-time pool.
I don't have it in me to launch a full-scale defence of Gerrard for obvious reasons, but I think most of us would consider that an overly harsh appraisal of his career. He's put in some stellar big-match performances, and displayed more in the way of consistency and longevity than many draft favourites.
I probably shouldn't say this but I think Redondo is pretty well utilised in that diamond, flanked by two strong runners in Oblak and Robbo just as he was at his Real peak with the likes of Karembeu and Seedorf.
On my own team, I did like the clarity of having two defined playmakers in Veron and Kopa in my first round match, but I don't think it's a necessity by any means. In fact, I was a little concerned that Gerrard would somewhat tread on Veron's toes much like Beckham did at Utd by trying to instigate moves from deep. There were times that Becks infuriated me by pretty much plucking the ball off Veron's toes rather than providing a passing option.
Off the top of my head, successful narrow-ish teams like Simeone's Atletico and 1998-2000 France didn't have multiple pure playmakers. What we do have is one of the greats in Kopa and a supporting trio who were all excellent on the ball. I think it's important to remember as well that there's not really a black and white distinction between playmaker/non-playmaker, but a spectrum with your Xavis on one end and Gattusos on the other. Sammer, Vieira and Gerrard, to varying degrees and with differing styles, were all capable of dictating the game and making plays to some degree or another.
Feck lads I don't know. I do feel that Romario and Sheva add up to slightly more than Sanchez and Seeler, plus his fullbacks have yours well beat.@diarm you sounded like your vote could go either way, so i will try to change your mind
But I can't deny how much I prefer your midfield and god knows I have a weakness for Baggio. It's not really about doubts or weaknesses because I'm convinced either side would be excellent.
This is how I feel also. I prefer the M/M midfield but I think Romario and Shev can cause more damage with the chances they get. tough call this one.
You can toss a coin regarding our left backs but Breitner is often rated top 5 LB of all time, with the right backs both are able to the job they have equally well, both world cup winners, don't think it's well beat mate.
Can see the appeal of Sheva and Romario, but when it comes to pure finishing Seeler and Sanchez are not far behind.
I think he's quite similar stylistically to Oblak in that he's an all-action player who wants plenty of freedom to contribute from box to box. I agree that you wouldn't want to rely on him to hold position as a midfield anchor for instance, but then the same is probably true of Oblak. I like him in this role as he has that licence (and reponsibility in fact) to cover loads of ground, and he has two disciplined, intelligent midfield leaders in Sammer and Vieira to safeguard the shape of our midfield. He's also on his stronger foot when he roams wide to provide width, unlike Oblak. No doubt Breitner was simply the better and more selfless player.
Rating Boateng on the same level as Thuram overall is a stretch, but on their respective careers at right back Thuram is surely streets ahead.
As regards Breitner vs Brehme, they are at a similar, top class level, butin terms of providing width in a narrow setup Brehme is the better fit.
There isn't much between Brehme and Breitner but Thuram is comfortably stronger here than Boateng imo. You mention them being world cup winners but only one of them won it at right back.
In fact for me, Thuram > Boateng is probably the biggest mismatch in this match.
Agree as a traditional right back Thuram is no doubt better, but in the role we have given him i don't see it as a weakness.
Maybe should have made it more clear but was referring to in the context of the role he's playing, a lot of the time he will be tucking in as the 3rd CB.
Well, you wouldn't want either to anchor the midfield for lengthy periods of time, but when a team has a dangerous #10 in their side, I'd trust Oblak to slow him down more so than Gerrard. Oblak was actually a good reader of the game and aware of when his midfield partners would go forward. He'd take up the right positions and ensure that the dangerous #10 would be snuffed out and contained, therefore allowing his team to regain their shape. In this case, if Redondo goes forward, I'd feel comfortable with Oblak covering for him and keeping an eye on Kopa. He did the same to both Jairzinho and Rivellino, and I don't see Gerrard doing a job like that.
I share your weakness for Baggio, and I can confidently say my dislike of Gerrard equals yours, which is making this match a bit uncomfortable for me
.I agree on the strikers. I don't really like rating them this crudely, but I'd put Romario as the best on the pitch, followed by Seeler, then Shevchenko, then Sanchez. More importantly, Romario/Shevchenko has the look of a proper partnership to me, similar stylistically to Romario/Bebeto or Romario/Ronaldo. With Kopa feeding them they've got precisely the sort of service they thrived off too. Sanchez/Seeler doesn't look as natural a combination IMO. Seeler sacrificed his game a tad towards the end of his career to be a great foil for Muller, but I don't know if Sanchez is quite worthy of having peak Seeler adapting to a more supportive role. Also, moreso than my pairing, I do think they need a bit more width and crossing ability to really maximise their skillsets.
By doing that you then give the edge on the other hand to Brehme and Romario who will cause all sorts of problems down that side. Realistically with the talent on show, he will need to perform the role of a right back more often than not - as will Thuram against your left flank.
You have Breitner, Robson, Baggio and Sanchez teaming up down that left hand side. It's formidable and Schulz, Thuram, Sammer and Gerrard will have their work cut out contending with it.
He has Brehme, Viera, Kopa and Romario teaming up down his left flank which is every bit as formidable. The issue I have is that I don't think Picchi, Boateng, Redondo and Oblak will deal quite as well.
There's not a huge amount in it but it's the one edge I can find in the game. Swap Boateng for Thuram and you win this one.
As Diarm says, your either giving Brehme huge licence to run that wing or else putting a massive burden on Oblak to track him constantly.
Either way, given that both players are facing strong attacking units, Thuram is clearly a relative strength for my team compared with Boateng. He's the better defender and he's more proven at providing attacking width from right back too. I don't want playing most of the match in your half Dani Alves style by any means, but I do recognise that my right back does need to provide some sort of outlet when I'm in possession
I don't rate Gerrard's positional discipline particularly highly at all, but there's a marginal advantage at best for Oblak if we're basing it primarily on a couple of tackles vs Jairzinho and Rivelino. I can make a similar case for Gerrard in the biggest match of his career vs the likes of Kaka, when he put in a tonne of defensive work:
In any case, Sammer was highly effective joining the attack but he tended to ration those burts forward rather carefully, and it'll primarily be Vieira who sits in and covers for him, as Brehme will be providing the attacking width on Vieira's side.
Love Pat's use of Gerrard here, should be in his element.
He'll never be defensively credible in a draft on this forum of all places. But he was such a rangy all-rounder in Serie A and for Argentina in the late 1990s, had some great battles with some of the finest midfield warriors of the era.
But if you switch those pairs, it would be probably Romario > Seeler (it's hard to pick there as I like Seeler more) and Sheva > Sanchez...
which only proves that those player for player comparisons are meaningless
True not far behind but my soft spot your side is Baggio more than those two
You have done a good job imo in getting the most out of Gerrard.Thuram definitely helps a lot for me.
I reckon this would be a high scoring draw. great teams btw.
Is there some anti-Veron sentiment on the Caf? If there is, missed it.... regardless of expectations/time at United, I really liked him (before, during and after United). Great skill going forward, don't recall his defensive shifts.
The basis is not that one single performance. That one performance against Brazil was a showcase of how he normally plays his game (as evidenced by the YouTube videos that 2mufc0 posted). The kind of overall discipline that I've seen from Oblak is not something that I've ever seen in Gerrard.
It's not peak Montero either.
I've watched all those videos and I see a talented and industrious box to box player, but I can't say I personally noticed much to indicate that he's on some massively higher plain to Gerrard in terms of positional discipline. Maybe he is and I need to watch the full matches, but I don't think it was glaringly obvious from those videos at least. I don't see it as hugely relevant in any case given that Gerrard has two tactically excellent and defensively strong partners anyway in Sammer and Vieira.
On an unrelated note his Yugoslavia teammate Acimovic, who never really gets a mention, seems to do something or other to impress me nearly every time I see him on video.
I'm disappointed to see Sánchez get so underrated around here. There was a reason he was at Real Madrid for multiple seasons and obtained 5 Pichichis. He wasn't just your mere poacher, either; this man was a gifted acrobat who used his gymnastics background to great effect, scoring some wonderful overhead kicks like the following:
On top of that, he was a consistent scorer not only at Real Madrid but at Atletico as well. His record at Atletico is 69 goals in 143 games, which is pretty good especially considering the fact that he was subjected to constant discrimination from the Spanish for his Mexican background.
On top of that, he was a consistent scorer not only at Real Madrid but at Atletico as well. His record at Atletico is 69 goals in 143 games, which is pretty good especially considering the fact that he was subjected to constant discrimination from the Spanish for his Mexican background.
Acimovic was Yugoslavia's main playmaker in the side. He and Bogicevic were given quite a bit of freedom to express themselves whilst Oblak had to play a more reserved game to accommodate both of them as well as Petkovic.