Dominoes draft: R1 - Enigma_87 vs P-nut0712

[P-Nut]

Who is picking up Zico tho since you are not playing with an actual DM? Zico with space around the box would guarantee goals.

I’ve just said that they would be patrolling the edge of the box? Unless Zico is going to push on into the box? Then he’d be picked up by one of the 2 spare cbs.

I’ll pose a similar question. How do you intend to deal with any of the 3 cms travelling with the ball say from a cleared ball in to the box from Stefano drifting wide?

 

[P-Nut]

Depends on where Villa goes of course. If Villa moves centrally he'll be intercepted zonally by Campbell (assuming he'll attack on the right and given Sol is left on my formation), if he drops deep in the midfield, he'll be picked by midfielder zonally or full back(again depending where he goes).

If you are using Villa to drop deep and participate in the build up actively I suppose Klose will be between my CB's

Villa will play in between Rijkaard and the defence. Rijkaard will need to hold his position to engage the midfielders so Villa will look to play a few yards past him, just out of reach but deep enough that Sol will have to break shape in order to pick him up.

 

[P-Nut]

Yeah actually I considered that for the particular matchup but the Di Stefano/Iniesta interchanging and Cole overlapping was a too good to turn down in terms of mechanics and being easy to visualize given the three of them could easily fill that role instinctively to a tee.

Besides I'm pretty sure all of P-nut CM's will be behind the ball (going by the graphic and mechanics) and Rijkaard will be better in a zonal role to intercept the threat on counter rather than covering role on the left.

Of course if needed and if P-nut attacks from the right he'll move in to intercept.

P-nut I imagine you are using the Chile version of Vidal when played as a LCM not the Juve one?

Vidals 3 year I’d be using would be 2014-2016 so end of Juve start of Bayern and including his Chile World Cup.

 

[Enigma_87]

I’ve just said that they would be patrolling the edge of the box? Unless Zico is going to push on into the box? Then he’d be picked up by one of the 2 spare cbs.

I’ll pose a similar question. How do you intend to deal with any of the 3 cms travelling with the ball say from a cleared ball in to the box from Stefano drifting wide?

It's not a good idea leaving Zico with his face to the goal. The guy has scored over 500 goals in his career and is perfect to break the deadlock from outside the box.


Extremely explosive and excellent long ranger he could easily hit the target if left to be marked zonally.

 

[Enigma_87]

Villa will play in between Rijkaard and the defence. Rijkaard will need to hold his position to engage the midfielders so Villa will look to play a few yards past him, just out of reach but deep enough that Sol will have to break shape in order to pick him up.

I see. Well obviously Klose will be handled by either of my center backs, whilst Villa will be picked up when he enters Sol's/Ayala zone. Both my CB's will play reserve role (no sweeper/stopper) type, but assuming Klose will always be on top he'll be minded at the back.

Vidals 3 year I’d be using would be 2014-2016 so end of Juve start of Bayern and including his Chile World Cup.

Vidal's at Juve played either as a RCM in Schuster role and especially in his best goalscoring form he alternated in the hole and that RCM spot, having more attacking functions with Marchisio/Pirlo/Pogba in deeper zones.

for example against Roma:

He was moving centrally from the right - a lot like you have Schuster doing, whilst for Chile he was more of a LCM with a more defensive role for example in the games against Argentina, etc...

 

[Moby]

Zico is the best player on the pitch. Expect him to be highly effective here.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Please check the quote above if you have the time. I know it is pretty long but IMO well worth the read.

Di Stefano at Real played with a lot of players in front of him. Having the space and other players to get the opposition off him was basically his game, as he loved to drop deep and dictate from deep.

He always had 2 players on the side - Amancio and Gento and two in front of him - Puskas and del Sol or Rial and Mateos.

His position is not set, especially in modern formation as Real at the time usually played with 5 up front, but in a 4-2-3-1 IMO that would be the closest position for him to fill on the pitch and the position he'd be most influential as well.

In a 4-4-2 is another matter, but with two complete players in Zico and Kalle, who are also on the same wavelength, he'll thrive in attack but also control the game without a dominant deep playmaker.

I have read that article before researching for earlier draft. Good one!

My point being for that RM team, Di Stefano was a surplus player and not needed anywhere in particular....and they gave him a free role, so he can double up on any players on the pitch, which is making full use of his array of talents all over the pitch. A compact back 3 with 2 halfbacks was sufficient platform on it's own. In your team, without him consistently lending a hand, Rijkaard will be marooned.

 

[P-Nut]

I see. Well obviously Klose will be handled by either of my center backs, whilst Villa will be picked up when he enters Sol's/Ayala zone. Both my CB's will play reserve role (no sweeper/stopper) type, but assuming Klose will always be on top he'll be minded at the back.


Vidal's at Juve played either as a RCM in Schuster role and especially in his best goalscoring form he alternated in the hole and that RCM spot, having more attacking functions with Marchisio/Pirlo/Pogba in deeper zones.

for example against Roma:

He was moving centrally from the right - a lot like you have Schuster doing, whilst for Chile he was more of a LCM with a more defensive role for example in the games against Argentina, etc...

Whilst he played from the right for them it’s not like he’d be limited playing from the opposite side, as you say he was doing it for Chile at the same time as he was playing from the right for Juve whilst being just as effective.

 

[P-Nut]

It's not a good idea leaving Zico with his face to the goal. The guy has scored over 500 goals in his career and is perfect to break the deadlock from outside the box.


Extremely explosive and excellent long ranger he could easily hit the target if left to be marked zonally.

The edge of the box would be extremely crowded with 3 of my players and 2 of your own with Zico and Iniesta when he comes inside.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Zico is the best player on the pitch

Seriously?

 

[Moby]

Seriously?

Yep.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Zico is the best player on the pitch. Expect him to be highly effective here.

Agreed. He is the match winner for me.

 

[Enigma_87]

I have read that article before researching for earlier draft. Good one!

My point being for that RM team, Di Stefano was a surplus player and not needed anywhere in particular....and they gave him a free role, so he can double up on any players on the pitch, which is making full use of his array of talents all over the pitch. A compact back 3 with 2 halfbacks was sufficient platform on it's own. In your team, without him consistently lending a hand, Rijkaard will be marooned.

Yeah think was a top one myself, good insight on him too.

In the article they call him playing like a box to box 8, which given his style and the desire to be anywhere is probably the closest to his "general" style to fit him in a 4-2-3-1 todays formation.

An ever present all over the pitch he will be at the heart of the battle always and Iniesta is the reason no one will leave Rijkaard to be marooned in the center.

Iniesta's role is to facilitate him when he's attacking and cover for him. Obviously he's a much bigger threat in the box, hence Iniesta also tucking in is close to his natural role, both at Spain and at Barca when played as an LCM in a 4-3-3.

Di Stefano is the epitome of a total footballer with endless stamina. Especially put in modern times I have no doubt he'll beat the likes of Davids and Cafu in terms of tireless running and endurance, considering how well ahead of others he was in his era.

He's not a classic #10 or a winger or a center forward. In all the games I've watched him he dropped very deep either to intercept opposition attacks or receive the ball in possession.

The reason why he's considered one of the best of all times is his all roundness and tactical insight and of course his natural ability, skill, etc. In a modern formation and setup like this I think this is the best way to underline his impact on the game at both ends - defensively and in attack.

^^^ a piece on him to show what I'm talking above.

 

[Enigma_87]

The edge of the box would be extremely crowded with 3 of my players and 2 of your own with Zico and Iniesta when he comes inside.

To me Zico has to be man marked when defending deep. He has very quick feet and if he's facing the goal could easily turn 1-2 defenders and send the ball into the net.

 

[P-Nut]

To me Zico has to be man marked when defending deep. He has very quick feet and if he's facing the goal could easily turn 1-2 defenders and send the ball into the net.

I have the opposite attitude. He’s that good that putting a single player on him is more dangerous than allowing 3 players who are no mugs defensively to have tabs on him. Deciding between themselves who is in the best position to pick him up.

EDIT: Unless did course you had a famed man marker like Makelele but he is one of the few I’d trust with that task.

 

[antohan]

The edge of the box would be extremely crowded with 3 of my players and 2 of your own with Zico and Iniesta when he comes inside.

Something has to give. If your midfielders are crowding the box then they aren't giving Rijkaard much to think about other than Villa.

 

[Enigma_87]

I have the opposite attitude. He’s that good that putting a single player on him is more dangerous than allowing 3 players who are no mugs defensively to have tabs on him. Deciding between themselves who is in the best position to pick him up.

EDIT: Unless did course you had a famed man marker like Makelele but he is one of the few I’d trust with that task.

Think Zico is too explosive to allow that moment of decision between the midfielders/defenders. Especially with 3 midfielders in a line when defending outside the box.

Don't get me wrong - all of your midfielders are sound defensively but without marking him tight and allowing him to receive the ball he can turn them very quickly and doesn't need acres of space to score.

A lot of his goals came receiving the ball with one foot and sending it in the top corner with the other with quick one two touches:

 

[P-Nut]

Something has to give. If your midfielders are crowding the box then they aren't giving Rijkaard much to think about other than Villa.

I don’t intend to have much possession if I’m honest. My game plan is all about transitions. I’ll knock up a graphic quickly now to demonstrate it.

 

[antohan]

Seriously?

Against a deep-sitting defence? I'd say so.

 

[P-Nut]

@antohan

Stefano having swapped with Iniesta leaves Rijkaard and Iniesta to deal with 3 cms breaking up the pitch when the ball is turned over. I’ve used the tough position that Enigmas graphic from earlier had.

 

[P-Nut]

Think Zico is too explosive to allow that moment of decision between the midfielders/defenders. Especially with 3 midfielders in a line when defending outside the box.

Don't get me wrong - all of your midfielders are sound defensively but without marking him tight and allowing him to receive the ball he can turn them very quickly and doesn't need acres of space to score.

A lot of his goals came receiving the ball with one foot and sending it in the top corner with the other with quick one two touches:

It’s not that he’d be zonal picked up but he would be picked up by a different player depending on where he positioned himself rather than dragging one player all over the park which he would definitely do if one player was tasked to him.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

@antohan

Stefano having swapped with Iniesta leaves Rijkaard and Iniesta to deal with 3 cms breaking up the pitch when the ball is turned over. I’ve used the tough position that Enigmas graphic from earlier had.

If that's when Enigma is in possession you can't ignore Sagnol and Cole. Both will be pushed up much more than shown here as will Rijkaard. This is why I think Zico is match winner because he can work those tight spaces, shoot outside the box or find the needle pass.

 

[P-Nut]

If that's when Enigma is in possession you can't ignore Sagnol and Cole. Both will be pushed up much more than shown here as will Rijkaard. This is why I think Zico is match winner because he can work those tight spaces, shoot outside the box or find the needle pass.

That just highlights how exposed it is on the transistion. The defence is completely exposed.

 

[idmanager]

I do think there will be gaps, but I would have preferred someone more versatile with diverse skills and more stronger than Villa who doesn't look the perfect fit for me.
Its tough to envision a goal coming out in some obvious way here which involves Villa. Someone of the ilk of Sanchez who is physically stronger and more versatile than Villa would have been a better roaming option.
The ideal option in an all time context would have been Mazzola from the other game today. These are the kind of setups he could make work almost single handedly.

 

[Enigma_87]

That just highlights how exposed it is on the transistion. The defence is completely exposed.

Well not exactly mate.

When teams are deep in defence - let's use Barca for example(not that we're playing tiki taka here) - they have 3 men to watch out for a counter - the two CB's and Busquets shielding with Alba and Alves pushing up.

Like you the other team is defending in two lines and having one or two forwards up the field but of course there is couple of yards space between the forward and Barca CB's.

Now in case we're caught up field - say Di Stefano loses possession. You'll have 2 players up top - Villa and Klose, whilst we'll have Campbell, Ayala and Rijkaard protecting and intercepting.

Your three CM's would push forward but so will our full backs, Figo and Iniesta who will be tucked in and in front either of your CM's tracking back.

You'd either need a ball over the top - which could easily be intercepted by our CB's or Rijkaard or quick move through the center or on the flank. If it is the second variant then Cole, Sagnol, Figo, Di Stefano, etc are faster or fast enough to regain ground and slow your attack.

Naturally when the full backs push up your wing backs will also push back to counter their vertical movement.

The issue I mentioned with Zico is that if you defend like that in a line. He can move into pockets and we have excellent passers in Iniesta, Di Stefano, Figo to find him with the ball in his feet and facing the goal confusing his markers.

You most likely need one of your midfielders to be tight on him with his back facing your goal.

 

[antohan]

@antohan

Stefano having swapped with Iniesta leaves Rijkaard and Iniesta to deal with 3 cms breaking up the pitch when the ball is turned over. I’ve used the tough position that Enigmas graphic from earlier had.

Classic case of depicting everything working for one self. Just a few seconds ago all five greenies were defending deep, the oppo are all morons who let them run past them and for some reason kept four guys at the back to exclusively mind Klose.

Yes, you would win if they played that way. I've never seen a team play like that though. That's how they played in the 20s except nobody ever crossed the halfway line. What made Uruguay great then was precisely that instead of running two separate games of five-a-side the entire team was comfortable moving up and down the pitch and executing transitions. That's one of the things that made Andrade a formidable and -back then- unique player.

 

[P-Nut]

Classic case of depicting everything working for one self. Just a few seconds ago all five greenies were defending deep, the oppo are all morons who let them run past them and for some reason kept four guys at the back to exclusively mind Klose.

Yes, you would win if they played that way. I've never seen a team play like that though. That's how they played in the 20s except nobody ever crossed the halfway line. What made Uruguay great then was precisely that instead of running two separate games of five-a-side the entire team was comfortable moving up and down the pitch and executing transitions. That's one of the things that made Andrade a formidable and -back then- unique player.

Not quite, when travelling with the ball my 3 cms are all up their. It is the whole point of defending deep and breaking quickly. If it was as simple as everyone quickly getting back into position then no one would ever employ the game plan.

Enigma is expecting Figo and Iniesta to be the ones to slow that breaking forward as he has said above. That in my eyes is a massive mismatch and I don’t know how everyone is trying to say it won’t be.

 

[Enigma_87]

Enigma is expecting Figo and Iniesta to be the ones to slow that breaking forward as he has said above. That in my eyes is a massive mismatch and I don’t know how everyone is trying to say it won’t be.

My point was Figo and Iniesta naturally will be tracking back mate and of course if they can would intercept your counter. Both have incredible work rate and have proven on numerous occasions that they also participate in the defensive phase.

 

[Oaencha]

The two teams looks much more even than I thought they would. Enigma’s attack and midfield are obviously very strong but I prefer P-nut’s defence. I think the Klose/Villa combo works pretty well but I would have rather seen Vidal in the middle of the midfield three, playing deeper.

Tough call.

 

[P-Nut]

My point was Figo and Iniesta naturally will be tracking back mate and of course if they can would intercept your counter. Both have incredible work rate and have proven on numerous occasions that they also participate in the defensive phase.

Yeah I understand they’ll track back, but surely even you can admit that those transitions are going to be tough to deal with?

It’s as though I’ve got three zombies in midfield so far and that they won’t cause any problems for a tracking back Figo and Iniesta supported by Rijkaard.

It’s a mismatch and surely that’s obvious.

I can admit that Stefano will get joy breakin behind Alves, but it’s as though my team will not get anywhere breaking quickly.

 

[Raees]

I think Pnut side is superior tactically in this match up as I think he's perfectly set up to play Enigma here but my worry is that Villa and Klose don't have enough about them to trouble that defensive unit.

I do rate them both but it just lacks some oomph.

Tighter game than the votes suggest though.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yeah I understand they’ll track back, but surely even you can admit that those transitions are going to be tough to deal with?

It’s as though I’ve got three zombies in midfield so far and that they won’t cause any problems for a tracking back Figo and Iniesta supported by Rijkaard.

It’s a mismatch and surely that’s obvious.

I can admit that Stefano will get joy breakin behind Alves, but it’s as though my team will not get anywhere breaking quickly.

Well to me it would be cagey game from your side and you'll assume the pressure at the back. Sure you'll get your chances on the counter as there are no perfect games and you also have a sound team mate, but I think we have a sound organization at the back with a GOAT DM who can sniff out the danger and really all players are excellent in transition including the full backs and midfielders.

I've tried to pick versatile players with a lot of work rate and ability to contribute in both phases.

Eventually I think we have a lot of diversity in attack and with proven goalscorers like Kalle, Zico, Di Stefano and excellent providers like Iniesta and Figo, all would be too much to handle and we would overpower the defence in the attacking third.

As others mentioned the game suits Zico a lot and he's a match winner on his own that can break the deadlock and provide the difference.

 

[Gio]

I think Pnut side is superior tactically in this match up as I think he's perfectly set up to play Enigma here but my worry is that Villa and Klose don't have enough about them to trouble that defensive unit.

I do rate them both but it just lacks some oomph.

Tighter game than the votes suggest though.

Yeah spot on. On first glance Enigma wins out quality-wise by some distance IMO and he's got a nice way of accommodating all that talent. But PNut has done well to swamp the midfield and the defence which probably means that a lot of Enigma's build-up would be reliant on the defence. And none of them in this company are particularly sexy going forward. A little bit more bite in attack and I'd definitely gone for PNut. As it stands, there's more penetration in that Enigma attack.

Plus Figo against Carlos always reminds me of this:

(5.08)

 

[Raees]

Yeah spot on. On first glance Enigma wins out quality-wise by some distance IMO and he's got a nice way of accommodating all that talent. But PNut has done well to swamp the midfield and the defence which probably means that a lot of Enigma's build-up would be reliant on the defence. And none of them in this company are particularly sexy going forward. A little bit more bite in attack and I'd definitely gone for PNut. As it stands, there's more penetration in that Enigma attack.

Plus Figo against Carlos always reminds me of this:

(5.08)

No Carlos in this game - I think.., but Figo in his prime was a joy to behold.

 

[Enigma_87]

Good game @P-Nut0712 you had a foundation of a great team for that 5-3-2 that just needed a little more tuning in attack.

 

[P-Nut]

Good game @P-Nut0712 you had a foundation of a great team for that 5-3-2 that just needed a little more tuning in attack.

Yeah never really got chance to add to my attack with the way the chain went.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Good game @P-Nut0712 you had a foundation of a great team for that 5-3-2 that just needed a little more tuning in attack.

Aye, Pnut's tactics were spot on too. That wing back duo are tailor-made for swift counter attacks, the midfield was capable of soaking up pressure as well as having quality going forward, and the Baresi-marshalled defence was strong. The A-list quality in attack just wasn't available to him though. I'd still have given him a decent shot here if your set up had been less coherent, but you've done an awesome job in moulding all that talent into a very plausible tactic. Great job in discussing Di Stefano's role - it was a good read and you made alot of good points. I thought I'd voted for you earlier but evidently I forgot but it didn't matter thankfully.

 

[P-Nut]

Yeah I couldn’t do much more here to be honest. Felt I set up my tactics perfectly and the only reason I was getting stressed out was people claiming that it wouldn’t work at all. I don’t even know if I’d change Villa to be honest, just could have done with a top level striker that can play up top by himself.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Yeah I couldn’t do much more here to be honest. Felt I set up my tactics perfectly and the only reason I was getting stressed out was people claiming that it wouldn’t work at all. I don’t even know if I’d change Villa to be honest, just could have done with a top level striker that can play up top by himself.

Aye, Villa is pure class. I find him a bit hard to place in an all-time draft, in that I know he's not absolutely top-tier like a Romario or van Basten, but I also think he's good enough to present a real goal threat against pretty much anyone. Either a higher calibre No. 9 ahead of him in Klose's place, or Villa leading the line with a livewire second striker would have done the trick nicely.

 

[P-Nut]

Aye, Villa is pure class. I find him a bit hard to place in an all-time draft, in that I know he's not absolutely top-tier like a Romario or van Basten, but I also think he's good enough to present a real goal threat against pretty much anyone. Either a higher calibre No. 9 ahead of him in Klose's place, or Villa leading the line with a livewire second striker would have done the trick nicely.

Yeah I'd have wanted someone like Batistuta or as you say Van Basten that can hold the ball and wait for either Villa to run off of him or one of the support runners to join them.

With Klose I was relying on a clean sheet and him to nick a goal. Against ADS and Zico that was always a tough ask.