So good they named him twice
Dominoes draft: R1 - Skizzo vs Pat_mustard
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I'd like all you gents to realize that the game is in the last few hours and the thread and match is being ruined with irrelevant discussion.
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He did but it's obviously a sliding-scale but I think he's closer to Matthews than say Best stylistically.
@Gio @Enigma_87
Just limiting it to the Figo v Robben battle, I think it is fair to say talent wise, Figo wins - easily but if we are looking at it in terms of impact in terms of club/international football and placing Robben's lack of Ballon D'or in the context of him having to compete with machines like Messi/Ronaldo year in and year out.. that shouldn't be held against him as I highly doubt Figo would have won a Ballon D'or in the more modern era.
Ballon D'or aside, Figo took Portugal to a Euro Final at home, but Robben took dutch side to world cup final and a world semi final. He's also made an impact in several euros (2004, 2008).
He was also arguably the main driving force in Bayerns CL win other than Ribery, whereas one could argue Figo was a part of a greater attacking unit, where the game plan afforded attacking talents more freedom.
Robben's ability to run at players from the first minute to the last, time and time again shouldn't be underestimated.
Figo is probably all-round the better player, but Robben's exploits were damn impressive for a wide player. His CV almost had a world cup win, in fact it might possibly have even been two world cup wins. End of the day it wasn't.. but it leaves alot of the rivals in the dust from the other tiers.
Just limiting it to the Figo v Robben battle, I think it is fair to say talent wise, Figo wins - easily but if we are looking at it in terms of impact in terms of club/international football and placing Robben's lack of Ballon D'or in the context of him having to compete with machines like Messi/Ronaldo year in and year out.. that shouldn't be held against him as I highly doubt Figo would have won a Ballon D'or in the more modern era.
Ballon D'or aside, Figo took Portugal to a Euro Final at home, but Robben took dutch side to world cup final and a world semi final. He's also made an impact in several euros (2004, 2008).
He was also arguably the main driving force in Bayerns CL win other than Ribery, whereas one could argue Figo was a part of a greater attacking unit, where the game plan afforded attacking talents more freedom.
Robben's ability to run at players from the first minute to the last, time and time again shouldn't be underestimated.
Figo is probably all-round the better player, but Robben's exploits were damn impressive for a wide player. His CV almost had a world cup win, in fact it might possibly have even been two world cup wins. End of the day it wasn't.. but it leaves alot of the rivals in the dust from the other tiers.
Great post.
No hints towards scores ffs.
I have Sneijder is the driving force for Holland in that tournament.
Behave now
Yes - agreed, but if you don't have Robben in that side.. as the ball-carrier, it becomes a average side which lacks the ability to stretch sides. As good as Sneijder was, I don't think he's the type of guy who can single-handedly electrify an attack.. or scare sides shitless, Robben is purely by virtue of their styles of play. Robben just by being on the pitch makes teams have to be wary as he poses such a direct, persistent running threat with the ball.
He enabled Sneijder to have the space to hurt sides. I think Robben is the more irreplaceable component of those dutch sides, the only GOAT level player out of him, Sneijder and RVP.
Anyway enough from me, for all my championing of him, I voted for Pat.
This. Sneijder was the creative and goal scoring force behind the Dutch 2010 WC run.
Good post, mate.
Figo also had an excellent EURO in 2000 when he took them to the SF's only to lose to France on golden goal.He was the one to bail them against England sparkling the come from behind win with THAT goal past Seaman.
He was always head and shoulders above the rest and leader in the national side. Even more so C.Ronaldo ever was for Portugal. Their golden generation failed to produce on consistent basis, but for anyone who has seen him in those tournaments I doubt you can pin it on him.
Whilst Robben was excellent in that WC run, to me Sneijder was the best player on the park for Holland during the whole tournament.
It's true that Figo might have not won the Ballon D'or, mainly because of his style and not being the goalscoring wide forward type that does it nowadays(and Messi/Ronaldo). But he won it in a stiff competition of all time greats like Rivaldo, Zidane, Henry, Sheva, etc.
Compared to Robben who hardly makes the top 20 list and has been in the top ten I think only twice in his career.
To me Robben is a great impact player and when he's on he's awesome to watch, but then again in terms of consistency Figo trumps him all day long, as he did with even compared to Zidane at that time. Add to that being riddled with injuries and not being able to produce that world class form every week - also hurts his resume.
You can always judge players compared to their peers and Figo at a time was undoubtedly the best in the world. With Ronaldo and Messi around (and Iniesta and Xavi) Robben unfortunately can't come close with that claim.
Behave now
I was more annoyed because I was really looking forward to the Netherlands-Spain semi final as they were by far the best teams in the tournament.
Arshavin scored from a throw-in ffs.
Anyhow with all that being said I think Robben would have a top game here, especially with Zanetti overlapping. With Brehme providing width in attack and his overlapping runs, they are bound to create trouble for Pat.
Behave now
Agreed, and I've no idea why people assume Neymar would stay in Thuram's pocket all game rather than roam across the frontline. It's a counterattacking setup, if they were meant to dominate the game then the head to head matchups are more relevant (mind you, Cabrini is being ignored), but when countering both Neymar and Robben will start from deep and take positions/advance into space looking for the path of least resistance rather than sticking to a flank come what may.
I think Gerrard helps Pat a lot in this. Very handy in drifting wide and will keep Cabrini from running this game off.
Got to hand it to Pat. First manager to have actually made Gerrard a tactical benefit rather than a liability.
This, basically. In a one on one matchup, with Thuram sticking to Neymar then his game gets limited in a big way, but we set up deep defensively and plan on playing directly and counter attacking, for two reasons.
One to have the forwards getting space to start in, and to turn and bomb forward. I see Robben and Neymar beating any of the opposition defense for pace, and having them in full flight sets them off on the front foot.
Secondly I wanted to limit space for anyone to get in behind. Tried to keep the defense as solid as possible, and with Makelele on Kopa, I don't see anyone really able to unlock it. I'd rather have Veron trying to do it from deeper, than Kopa or a "classic" number 10 unlocking it.
And the iconic goal someone mentioned.
And like I said earlier, if we get the first goal, I see it causing a bit of a "floodgates opening" situation as they push up further.
Some great discussion here lads. Good to see a match thread attracting this much interest after some very quiet affairs lately. The tactical arguments were all laid down early in this one and there's no glaring diffferences in individual quality either so I don't have much to add. One thing I did want to highlight was Romario's brilliance alongside a strike partner in a proper front two. From memory in drafts he more often appears in the centre of attacking trios (perhaps the Barca Dream Team influence?) but he absolutely thrived alongside several partners and Shevchenko, with his pace, flair and powerful running of channels, should be no exception.
Thanks mate. As much as I dislike the fecker I'm pretty happy with the reception he's got here.He does, although you have to see how it unfolds as he does.
Gerrard is looking after Overath, and him moving wide let's him move on unopposed and get at Veron. If he doesn't, then Cabrini can help overload with the space.
And it still doesn't address the Robben-Zanetti flank and how you slow them down enough to not dominate that flank.
Through the middle there's not a clear and distinct advantage for either side, especially as we both have a DM (Makelele on this side) and a set up to stifle that space.
Out wide however, there is a bit of a clear advantage and ability to impact the game, which makes a difference in a tight game such as this. Especially if we score first and give ourselves even more space to counter as they push forward.
I'm pretty sure we tried to stay well clear of him in the Premier Leagie draft so we wouldn't have to try and big him up
And those Romario videos
I'm pretty sure we tried to stay well clear of him in the Premier Leagie draft so we wouldn't have to try and big him up
I'm a sell-out. I still wince thinking about having him in my fantasy football team back in the day and those conflicting feelings of happiness and utter disgust when he scored. One of the reasons I stopped playing it IIRC.my first pick of the whole draft was Van Basten. Partly because the chain took me that way , but in terms of strikers to lead the line, there's not many more well rounded that are on his level.
Physical, technical, clinical finisher with both feet and in the air, and his movement helps keep that defense from settling. He won't be bullied down by Vidic, and he can create some space to finish on his own, or get on the end of deliveries from Neymar/Cabrini or Robben/Zanetti
, but in terms of strikers to lead the line, there's not many more well rounded that are on his level.Physical, technical, clinical finisher with both feet and in the air, and his movement helps keep that defense from settling. He won't be bullied down by Vidic, and he can create some space to finish on his own, or get on the end of deliveries from Neymar/Cabrini or Robben/Zanetti
I stopped playing mainly just because I was a lazy feck that didn't want to check in every week.one of the reasons why I voted for your team.my first pick of the whole draft was Van Basten. Partly because the chain took me that way
Physical, technical, clinical finisher with both feet and in the air, and his movement helps keep that defense from settling. He won't be bullied down by Vidic, and he can create some space to finish on his own, or get on the end of deliveries from Neymar/Cabrini or Robben/Zanetti
Nobody is talking about him, while IMO he is a supreme figure.
Falls under one of those spots where you assume people know what he brings, so focus elsewhere.
Definitely deserves to be highlighted here though as I think he matches up well with the defense, and won't be physically bullied by Vidic, and (as I keep repeating myself with for all the front 3
) his directness could cause all sorts of problems when running at Vidic and Schulz.Well I have my own obvious reasons for not wanting to talk about himFalls under one of those spots where you assume people know what he brings, so focus elsewhere.
Definitely deserves to be highlighted here though as I think he matches up well with the defense, and won't be physically bullied by Vidic, and (as I keep repeating myself with for all the front 3
. That said, I think Vidic is a fine stylistic fit against him. I had van Basten last time and came up against Vierchowod, and was dismayed to discover that Vierchowod actually had a stellar record against him, conceding only 2 goals in 8 games or something similar. Now there's plenty of other factors at work there, not least small sample size and pure chance, but it does strengthen the case that an aerial beast like Vidic, with such a superb aptitude for physical duels, can at least limit his threat. Particularly given that van Basten was quick, very quick even, but not the sort of Usain Bolt-esque pace merchant that generally ends up bumming Vidic in these drafts.Ive already set the scenario of VieiraWell I have my own obvious reasons for not wanting to talk about him
passing the ball to Robben
who bursts forward...Gerrard goes to help cover, but over he goes
He recovers, as the true captain and midfield general he is...but one poor challenge later
The game now opens up. There's less cover for Vidic, who is suddenly exposed to all that pace and he goes for a tackle..but oh no
He's given a red card as some little Professor Snape midget lookalike casts a spell on the referee.
So as you see, things are definitely in our favour with that clear 2 man advantage we'd enjoy
I wouldn't equate Vierchowod to Vidic at all.Well I have my own obvious reasons for not wanting to talk about him
The one that looks woefully underrated is Overath, shits all over your [better known] midfielders IMO.
He was a monster, I was constantly looking for him in this draft, but could not get him.Well I have my own obvious reasons for not wanting to talk about him
There's np denying both your strength on the wings and your threat on the counter, but my setup is fairly robust IMO. I've stated that I'm playing a fairly deep line too - while it'll obviously push up if we're in possession we won't be going gung ho either. Also, what we lack in attacking width on our right wing we gain in the defensive phase. While Gerrard/Thuram won't create the consstent attacking overloads that, for example, a Hassler/Dani Alves duo would in a similar formation, it's far more sturdy and resistant to counter attacks.
As far as Gerrard (or Vieira for that matter) getting pulled out wide to address overloads on the flanks - it's a concern of course, but then the whole team will slide across to protect the centre. The danger then is that you switch the play quickly, but with organisers like Schulz, Vidic and Vieira, coupled with a strong back four and Vieira and Gerrard buttressing Veron, I think our defensive structure is pretty sound.
Ive already set the scenario of Vieira
passing the ball to Robben
who bursts forward...Gerrard goes to help cover, but over he goes
He recovers, as the true captain and midfield general he is...but one poor challenge later
The game now opens up. There's less cover for Vidic, who is suddenly exposed to all that pace and he goes for a tackle..but oh no
He's given a red card as some little Professor Snape midget lookalike casts a spell on the referee.
So as you see, things are definitely in our favour with that clear 2 man advantage we'd enjoy
I have no adequate retort for this.So as you see, things are definitely in our favour with that clear 2 man advantage we'd enjoy
Most of what I found ended up being in German or poorly translated. I'd place him as the best playmaker on the pitch behind Kopa, but the one with the least resistance because Gerrard is responsible for both him and Cabrini. Gerrard moves wide, Overath has space to dictate going forward against Veron, who won't be a lightweight, but won't stifle his threat.
Some posts by the resident German Joga, who I don't believe is even that big a fan of him
The only man in World Cup history, along with Beckenbauer, to win gold, silver and bronze in the World Cup.
In 1966, '70 and '74, this 'No10 par excellence', as he was known, played all West Germany's matches at three World Cups. He ended his career having appeared in 19 matches in the competition, with 15 wins, one draw and three defeats. A tidy record by anyone's reckoning that saw him win the title in 1974, finish runner-up in '66 and third in '70.
Mexico was doubtless Overath's finest hour, whereby the international media voted him as the best midfield player in the tournament.. Pundits at the tournament were in raptures at his ball skills, particular when he scored the only goal of the game in the third-place play-off against Uruguay.
"Overath has the grace of a prima ballerina, the staying power of an astronaut, the intelligence of an Einstein and the footballing qualities of… well, what is the greatest superlative we could possibly find? Yes, he has the footballing qualities of a Wolfgang Overath," said a Brazilian sports paper at the time.
Overath himself remembers the tournament in Latin America only too well. "For me, Mexico 1970 is the greatest World Cup there ever was," he said in an interview with Zeit magazine. "I rate it above the 1974 tournament, even though we obviously won that one on home soil. All the greats were there like Pele and Bobby Charlton. The quality of the football and the fantastic atmosphere in the stadiums were second to none."
And this one by BlackWidow
Will post comments later
Really appreciate all the discussions so far, and as @Pat_Mustard said, nice to see this buck the trend of recent matches without much input.
Ill be out for a little while, but checking in, so one last bump and tag before the match closes
@Šjor Bepo @Theon @NM @diarm @Balu @Physiocrat @Ralaks @Zebs @Annahnomoss
Ill be out for a little while, but checking in, so one last bump and tag before the match closes
@Šjor Bepo @Theon @NM @diarm @Balu @Physiocrat @Ralaks @Zebs @Annahnomoss
Congrats @Pat_Mustard
Looking forward to seeing how and what you tweak and shuffle from here. Good luck!
Looking forward to seeing how and what you tweak and shuffle from here. Good luck!
feck that was tense. Hard luck @Skizzo that couldn't have been any closer. I don't know if you were aware, but you beat me on average pick times by something like 4 minutes a pick, so one vote at the death would have won it for you. The discussions were excellent, although I'd have happily seen this match drift off into obscurity towards the end .
.Harsh result for you. Having seen Lord Sinisters team, I think if you had drawn him, you'd have probably wonCongrats @Pat_Mustard
Looking forward to seeing how and what you tweak and shuffle from here. Good luck!
feck that was tense. Hard luck @Skizzo that couldn't have been any closer. I don't know if you were aware, but you beat me on average pick times by something like 4 minutes a pick, so one vote at the death would have won it for you. The discussions were excellent, although I'd have happily seen this match drift off into obscurity towards the end
I actually looked at the pick times, although to be honest, I wouldn't have felt right with that since you had some personal stuff, so would have gladly conceded on that grounds since that caused your only extensive wait time for one pick.Was some good discussion too, like you said, was nice to see people jumping in and not just discussing with the managers, but amongst each other as well. Keeps things fresh and not as tedious as a straight back and forth. Didn't want to be too critical, as I think you're well set up, so hopefully didn't come off as so!