England Discussion | Finish 4th

[MUFC OK]

I think any talk of England's route to the final should be put on hold, there is a lot of hype being generated and there is need for perspective.

Focus has to be on the Colombia game now, as the only guaranteed match that England have, if we don't perform better than them, we are going home so I hope Southgate has conveyed this message to the players and that the players treat it like a cup final.

All the talk of this being 'the best chance ever' is dangerously close to the expectation that has hindered England teams in the past.

I've got a feeling that England will be narrowly beaten tomorrow night and so on a personal level I won't be getting my hopes up.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The meltdown here tomorrow will be just .

Whichever way the result goes it will be carnage.

 

[Revaulx]

Assuming your run to the semi-final because the other teams are supposedly weak is arrogance. You take it one match at a time.

And how the media is acting is exactly the opposite of how they should given England's history, from EASY in 2010 to Iceland in 2016.

There’s a world of difference between regarding a match as winnable and arrogantly assuming it’s already won.

And I’m no fan of The Sun, but the EASY group was an easy group, and given the ease with which England had laid waste opponents of a similar level in the qualifiers, it was realistic to expect them to do the same in the group stage. Even by England standards, the meltdown in quality between the qualifiers and the finals was remarkable.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

There’s a world of difference between regarding a match as winnable and arrogantly assuming it’s already won.

And I’m no fan of The Sun, but the EASY group was an easy group, and given the ease with which England had laid waste opponents of a similar level in the qualifiers, it was realistic to expect them to do the same in the group stage. Even by England standards, the meltdown in quality between the qualifiers and the finals was remarkable.

Also, it was a classic tabloid pun that couldn't be missed (in their eyes).

 

[hasanejaz88]

There’s a world of difference between regarding a match as winnable and arrogantly assuming it’s already won.

And I’m no fan of The Sun, but the EASY group was an easy group, and given the ease with which England had laid waste opponents of a similar level in the qualifiers, it was realistic to expect them to do the same in the group stage. Even by England standards, the meltdown in quality between the qualifiers and the finals was remarkable.

Exactly my point, given how England have failed in tournaments, saying stuff as EASY, disregarding Iceland and saying you are better off losing to Belgium is arrogant. England haven't shown anything during the past 22 years to suggest they should have an easy passage to the final, but then again the arrogance with regards to the national team is drawn from that in the EPL as well where fans assume they have a right to be in the knockout stages of the UCL every season.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

Assuming your run to the semi-final because the other teams are supposedly weak is arrogance. You take it one match at a time.

And how the media is acting is exactly the opposite of how they should given England's history, from EASY in 2010 to Iceland in 2016.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/world-cup-2018-general-discussion.434111/page-16#post-22258528

You predicted a quarter final exit for Germany didn't you? That was a little bit presumptive, assuming you'd get past Sweden, Mexico and S. Korea and a L16 match. You could even say it was maybe a touch arrogant

In seriousness I wouldn't have blamed a Germany fan for assuming QF at the very least given their history and recent performances, and likewise I take the point that an English fan (with nothing like that tournament pedigree) now expecting QFs and even semis as a formality because of Colombia and Sweden/Switz is way out of line. But it can't be escaped that our run to a possible semi is looking about as good as anyone could have hoped for, so why deny that just to appear humble? The tabloid press and a few silly people aside no-one I've seen is genuinely seeing us as a shoe-in for the QFs or the semis, we're just accepting the fact we've been given a route on paper that looks less daunting than we might have expected.

 

[Infra-red]

Exactly my point, given how England have failed in tournaments, saying stuff as EASY, disregarding Iceland and saying you are better off losing to Belgium is arrogant. England haven't shown anything during the past 22 years to suggest they should have an easy passage to the final, but then again the arrogance with regards to the national team is drawn from that in the EPL as well where fans assume they have a right to be in the knockout stages of the UCL every season.

It is not arrogant to think that your team is not very good and needs an easier draw if they are to progress.

That's why people were pleased with England falling into the bottom half of the draw.

 

[MUFC OK]

Exactly my point, given how England have failed in tournaments, saying stuff as EASY, disregarding Iceland and saying you are better off losing to Belgium is arrogant. England haven't shown anything during the past 22 years to suggest they should have an easy passage to the final, but then again the arrogance with regards to the national team is drawn from that in the EPL as well where fans assume they have a right to be in the knockout stages of the UCL every season.

I'm sorry but what does the last 22 years have to do with what this England team achieves? By that logic, Germany would be shoe-ins for the semi finals this year.

I can see some are getting slightly carried away, and I would prefer to be cautious, but there is obviously a good chance to progress far in this tournament against teams that are not superior to England.

 

[hasanejaz88]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/world-cup-2018-general-discussion.434111/page-16#post-22258528

You predicted a quarter final exit for Germany didn't you? That was a little bit presumptive, assuming you'd get past Sweden, Mexico and S. Korea and a L16 match. You could even say it was maybe a touch arrogant

In seriousness I wouldn't have blamed a Germany fan for assuming QF at the very least given their history and recent performances, and likewise I take the point that an English fan (with nothing like that tournament pedigree) now expecting QFs and even semis as a formality because of Colombia and Sweden/Switz is way out of line. But it can't be escaped that our run to a possible semi is looking about as good as anyone could have hoped for, so why deny that just to appear humble? The tabloid press and a few silly people aside no-one I've seen is genuinely seeing us as a shoe-in for the QFs or the semis, we're just accepting the fact we've been given a route on paper that looks less daunting than we might have expected.

A lot of people were expecting us to win, I never thought that a possibility because there were weaknesses in the squad

But I understand your second point, acknowledging that it's an easier run is okay but, as you said, the media is hyping it up saying who can be England's opponents in the semi-final etc. That I feel is disrespectful to the other teams.

Well, we can agree I'm being overboard with my ascertain that a lot are being arrogant and you can that some are. No need for generalisation on my part.

 

[Alfie092]

Guys, quick question.

Is it coming home?

 

[roonster09]

Guys, quick question.

Is it coming home?

On the way.

 

[Revan]

They're watching a possible future opponent and you don't think they are going to reflect on how we would match up? Honestly I find that idea ridiculous.

It is a possible opponent in semis though, which mean that to play them, you need to win 2 KO ties. You have 2 KO ties combined in this century, in 8 tournaments.

So, it is tricky. England should be focused on next match, not thinking about a potential opponent on semis.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It is a possible opponent in semis though, which mean that to play them, you need to win 2 KO ties. You have 2 KO ties combined in this century, in 8 tournaments.

So, it is tricky. England should be focused on next match, not thinking about a potential opponent on semis.

Not sure if you know but the pundits aren't playing the match.

 

[Revan]

I'm sorry but what does the last 22 years have to do with what this England team achieves? By that logic, Germany would be shoe-ins for the semi finals this year.

I can see some are getting slightly carried away, and I would prefer to be cautious, but there is obviously a good chance to progress far in this tournament against teams that are not superior to England.

Champions get eliminated in group stage. It is known. On this century, only Brazil managed to pass the group stage. France, Italy, Spain and now Germany satisfied the pattern.

 

[roonster09]

It is a possible opponent in semis though, which mean that to play them, you need to win 2 KO ties. You have 2 KO ties combined in this century, in 8 tournaments.

So, it is tricky. England should be focused on next match, not thinking about a potential opponent on semis.

With all the big teams on the other side of the draw, England fans and pundits are bit excited about the potential semi finals, there is nothing wrong with that. If England team/players took their eye off next game then it's a big issue.

Think they will lose against Colombia though, they are good team and very tricky for England.

 

[MUFC OK]

Champions get eliminated in group stage. It is known. On this century, only Brazil managed to pass the group stage. France, Italy, Spain and now Germany satisfied the pattern.

It's a crazy statistic. It's probably to do with the average age of a winning team being late 20's and four years later, their cycle has ended, that and a combination of the team being slightly less motivated. There must be reason to this, it cannot just be coincidence.

I completely agree that England shouldn't be looking beyond the next match, though.

 

[Revan]

It's a crazy statistic. It's probably to do with the average age of a winning team being late 20's and four years later, their cycle has ended, that and a combination of the team being slightly less motivated. There must be reason to this, it cannot just be coincidence.

I think it is a combination of:

1) Team not being too hungry.
2) The manager not making much changes because he trusts the players with whom he already won the biggest price on football.
3) The other teams desperately wanting to prove a team against the champions.

(2) is probably the biggest problem. A lot of players play only because they were good the last time around (the likes of Muller now, or Casillas in 2014, or essentially the entire Italy team in 2010).

 

[Hansa]

It's a crazy statistic. It's probably to do with the average age of a winning team being late 20's and four years later, their cycle has ended, that and a combination of the team being slightly less motivated. There must be reason to this, it cannot just be coincidence.

Germany is the strangest one of all. Age-wise, they really should be in their prime, and you always associate German teams with professionalism and getting the job done. The perfect storm this year, it seems.

 

[Revan]

Germany is the strangest one of all. Age-wise, they really should be in their prime, and you always associate German teams with professionalism and getting the job done. The perfect storm this year, it seems.

Spain was hardly ancient to be fair.

I think that this was their lineup in 2014:

Casillas

Azpilicueta Ramos Pique Alba

Busquets Xavi Alonso

Silva Iniesta

Costa​

Only Xavi, Xabi and Casillas are over 30 years old, and neither of them was really ancient. They were favorites to win it again.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

A lot of people were expecting us to win, I never thought that a possibility because there were weaknesses in the squad

But I understand your second point, acknowledging that it's an easier run is okay but, as you said, the media is hyping it up saying who can be England's opponents in the semi-final etc. That I feel is disrespectful to the other teams.

Well, we can agree I'm being overboard with my ascertain that a lot are being arrogant and you can that some are. No need for generalisation on my part.

Aye Germany looked very strong to me too and I didn't quite believe your ilk's more realistic appraisals of your chances before the tournament. Luckily for you you still have some fine players and a great history of learning from your mistakes to come back stronger still.

If there's one nationality with absolutely no right to make assumptions about how 'easy' progression will be it's the English, given our lamentable tournament record. If we beat Colombia I will probably start to get genuinely excited, but then how English would it be to get through that tough game only to fall to the Swiss or the Swedes, teams I'm sure most England fans would assume we'd have the beating of?

 

[Hansa]

If there's one nationality with absolutely no right to make assumptions about how 'easy' progression will be it's the English, given our lamentable tournament record. If we beat Colombia I will probably start to get genuinely excited, but then how English would it be to get through that tough game only to fall to the Swiss or the Swedes, teams I'm sure most England fans would assume we'd have the beating of?

A quick glance at the statistics shows that England have 1 win in 8 against Sweden in FIFA/UEFA competitions. A real banana skin. The record vs Switzerland is a bit better.

 

[Jim Reaper]

I think we have a right to be optimistic for a variety of reasons.

1. We went into this tournement not expecting much. It was a weak squad on paper but performances and playstyle seem improved. Also, we have an actual system now rather than shoehorning in every big name.
2. Other 'Big Nations' being eliminated clearing a path for an easier route to a final.
3. The Belgium game cannot be criticised, England rested most of the first team and rightly so.

I personally believed this was one tournement to early for this group and hoped that the emerging talent from International youth football in England (in which we have had recent success) would fill any gaps in this squad whilst these players gained experience at this world cup. Beating Colombia will not be easy but there is no denying that this is one of the easiest routes to a final that you could hope for. Taking nothing away from the squad if they do it, you can only beat who is infront of you.

The media are talking about us in semi-finals because the expectation is growing due to the above reasons and that is to be expected and its not a bad thing. The players and manager have made that happen by improving on all fronts. Also, not being scared of Croatia is down to the fact that they did not impress against Denmark and also that you shouldnt fear anyone, if you are to be succesful.

I think the media are hyping things for drama though, adding pressure. That way if we lose, 'Same old, same old' and if we win 'we knew you could do it'. Southgate has been quite honest about this maybe being too early for this team but the signs are good and he said he wanted to renew the connection between the fans and the team and to be honest, he is slowly doing that.

fairplay and good luck

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

A quick glance at the statistics shows that England have 1 win in 8 against Sweden in FIFA/UEFA competitions. A real banana skin. The record vs Switzerland is a bit better.

Absolutely, and I think there you could argue there is an air of arrogance around some England fans derived from their ignorance about less fashionable teams/players. While we can accept Sweden or Switzerland are more manageable for England on paper than Brazil they will still be tough games we could quite easily lose.

However every halfway clued-up person I've spoken to is very cautious about Colombia, Sweden and Switzerland, and if anything prefer to dwell on the fact we've had two wins against teams we should have beaten and a non-event against Belgium.

 

[Tomuś]

If Colombia could replicate half their performance against Poland, and with James fit, England will be in for a long night. This is what irks me, the massive downplaying of Colombia. That saying, Croatia were great in the group stage, too but yesterday looked laboured and devoid of creativity.

This way or another, it's gonna be first good team England face as the second string game vs Belgium should be taken with a pinch of salt. If England beat Colombia with Rodriguez in it, I will start taking them seriously.

 

[vadimivich]

It's easy to like this English team - but England fans? The entirety of England in general after Brexit and the continental bashing that ensued? Blech.

Torn because I have English friends and the Spurs players I hope do well (Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaane!) ... but not sure I can take the "it's coming home crowd" at all.

 

[Jim Reaper]

If Colombia could replicate half their performance against Poland, and with James fit, England will be in for a long night. This is what irks me, the massive downplaying of Colombia. That saying, Croatia were great in the group stage, too but yesterday looked laboured and devoid of creativity.

This way or another, it's gonna be first good team England face as the second string game vs Belgium should be taken with a pinch of salt. If England beat Colombia with Rodriguez in it, I will start taking them seriously.

England also have the benefit of resting pretty much the whole first team against Belgium. Which some teams like Croatia didnt have the luxury of doing. That could be why the looked laboured.

 

[Hansa]

However every halfway clued-up person I've spoken to is very cautious about Colombia, Sweden and Switzerland, and if anything prefer to dwell on the fact we've had two wins against teams we should have beaten and a non-event against Belgium.

Yeah, with England (and Belgium), because of how the group stage unfolded, it's very, very hard to predict what will happen once they face a quality team. They have every reason to be cautiously optimistic, though.

 

[Tomuś]

England also have the benefit of resting pretty much the whole first team against Belgium. Which some teams like Croatia didnt have the luxury of doing. That could be why the looked laboured.

True, I like Croatia btw so I hope nobody takes it as an attack. Simply stating the obvious. We'll see how England fare. By the way, did Russians rest a lot against Uruguay? Asking because they looked fresh physically yesterday.

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

Not being a Wum but the foundations for the “Dutch” total football was actually made by an Ajax Manager called Jack Reynolds, who managed them on 3 occasions and is recognised as one of the greatest managers they’ve had, oh and he was English. So even the Dutch arrogance has an English root..

This isn't quite true. Reynold laid the foundations for the club and the academy in many ways, but the total football tactics had nothing to do with him.

Another british manager, Vic Buckingham, takes credit for adding possession to the (already renowned) attacking, high-pressing wing-play that Ajax played at the time, but Cruijff himself said that the English coaches (which doesn't include Reynolds, who laid the foundations for the club to grow into what it was, but whose last spell ended in 1947) mainly added professionalism:

In Cruijff's own words:

“I think of Vic Buckingham who picked me [for Cruyff’s Ajax debut in November 1964]. But even before Vic [who coached Cruyff at Ajax and Barcelona] there was Keith Spurgeon. He’s not famous but he was one of my first coaches. I learned my English from Keith Spurgeon. He had some small children and I was young too and so we spoke the language together and it was fantastic.”

English coaches are not usually known for their tactical innovations – so were Spurgeon and Buckingham more open-minded than their successors?

“They were open-minded but, tactically, you have to see where we were at that time. Football in Holland then was good but it was not really professional. They gave us some professionalism because they were much further down the road. But the tactical thinking came later with Michels. It started then.

 

[Fridge chutney]

England are never likable because of their mind numbing fans and the EPL.

Strange comment. All of Europe's leagues' fans are mind numbing if you look for it. And you joined a forum for an EPL club, so you must like self-punishment!

 

[Fridge chutney]

So far before this tournament they weren't so bad because the expectations were down, but now they are back at full arrogant force, especially saying that losing to Belgium was good because it gives them an easy path to the semi-final, downplaying the opposition they have to face. You would think they'd have learnt a lesson regarding underestimating opponents after losing to Iceland at Euro '16.

This just isn't what's happening. A good proportion of England fans are expecting to lose to Colombia. It's the non-Ebgland fans that seem most bullish.

 

[Catt]

Will James be ready for Colombia?

 

[Fridge chutney]

Assuming your run to the semi-final because the other teams are supposedly weak is arrogance. You take it one match at a time.

And how the media is acting is exactly the opposite of how they should given England's history, from EASY in 2010 to Iceland in 2016.

Are you criticising the Colombian press for pointing out that they're on an easier side of the draw also? Arrogant Colombians!

 

[endless_wheelies]

I think any talk of England's route to the final should be put on hold, there is a lot of hype being generated and there is need for perspective.

Focus has to be on the Colombia game now, as the only guaranteed match that England have, if we don't perform better than them, we are going home so I hope Southgate has conveyed this message to the players and that the players treat it like a cup final.

All the talk of this being 'the best chance ever' is dangerously close to the expectation that has hindered England teams in the past.

I've got a feeling that England will be narrowly beaten tomorrow night and so on a personal level I won't be getting my hopes up.

Agreed

 

[MadMike]

Will James be ready for Colombia?

Asking the real questions here

 

[Fridge chutney]

Will James be ready for Colombia?

According to reports, unlikely

 

[Fridge chutney]

"All signs point to James not playing against England" according to this most recent Colombian report. Shame. You want the best vs. the best.

http://m.eltiempo.com/mundial-rusia-2018/todo-a-punta-a-que-james-no-estara-contra-inglaterra-238190

 

[Rednotdead]

According to reports, unlikely

But even if he’s only 80% fit will they start him, just for the psychological lift?

 

[Catt]

According to reports, unlikely

That's a shame.

 

[Jam]

You need to beat whoever is directly in front of you, taking your eyes off this game while you're looking at the next few rounds is dangerous and complacent when any single team left is capable of beating us.