England Discussion | Finish 4th

[Alabaster Codify7]

Good effort. They were never expected to finish in the last four, by anyone apart from maybe the most ardent, deluded 'Its Comin' Farkin' 'Ome Lads' types.

I laughed a bit today when they were claiming Kane has appeared injured the last two games due to him not showing up.....Um......maybe it has something to do with the fact that he's been facing better teams? He only looked awesome, bear in mind, against Tunisia and Panama. He was non existent in the Sweden game and didn't do much against Colombia either. In fact, I'd say he flattered to deceive in the tournament.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Good effort. They were never expected to finish in the last four, by anyone apart from maybe the most ardent, deluded 'Its Comin' Farkin' 'Ome Lads' types.

I laughed a bit today when they were claiming Kane has appeared injured the last two games due to him not showing up.....Um......maybe it has something to do with the fact that he's been facing better teams? He only looked awesome, bear in mind, against Tunisia and Panama. He was non existent in the Sweden game and didn't do much against Colombia either. In fact, I'd say he flattered to deceive in the tournament.

He was excellent against Colombia. Held the ball up brilliantly and scored two pressure penalties. Poor in the last two games though.

 

[alsabi]

You have to wonder how much better the (overall more technically-gifted) squads of the past several World Cups would have done if they'd had the same togetherness and cohesiveness of this team. England's fourth place finish is a credit to this team but also an indictment of their predecessors.

 

[endless_wheelies]

Good effort. They were never expected to finish in the last four, by anyone apart from maybe the most ardent, deluded 'Its Comin' Farkin' 'Ome Lads' types.

I laughed a bit today when they were claiming Kane has appeared injured the last two games due to him not showing up.....Um......maybe it has something to do with the fact that he's been facing better teams? He only looked awesome, bear in mind, against Tunisia and Panama. He was non existent in the Sweden game and didn't do much against Colombia either. In fact, I'd say he flattered to deceive in the tournament.

He was very hard-working against Colombia and thus created space for the rest of our team to play in tbf. He was similarly hard-working against Sweden but that was when his effectiveness started to drop off, probably through fatigue as Southgate had singled him out prior to that game as a matter of concern.

 

[Redlambs]

The problem everyone had with most England fans is what the tweets says WAS true but after a few wins the same fans who made fun of their team with ''it's coming home'' actually believed it themselves. The bigging up of a shite team after a few wins and talking like England deserved to be among the best was baffling for us neutrals.

English media and a few drunken fans?

Yeah, that equals people actually believing it. You guys are all looking at a few stupid articles and acting like we all thought we were good enough to win it, twisting optimism into something more. Well I'll say it again, the only people who seemed to be buying into the media and punditry was anyone but the majority of England fans. I still don't know a single person who genuinely thought we'd win it even after Columbia. Sure I personally thought we'd have a chance against Croatia if it went our way, but that doesn't automatically mean I was jumping around chanting "It's coming home!" thinking we had one hand on the trophy. I watched every game in a packed pub too, and I can tell you, there were a few choruses of that song every now and then from a few people, but most of us were just happy that we got out of the fecking group

But seriously, England or no aside, why do people still pay attention to all the muppetry in the media/punditry/twitter feeds if it winds them up?

You have to wonder how much better the (overall more technically-gifted) squads of the past several World Cups would have done if they'd had the same togetherness and cohesiveness of this team. England's fourth place finish is a credit to this team but also an indictment of their predecessors.

Yeah, good point. I think we are mostly just happy we unexpectedly got this far and looked like a team.

 

[Tiber]

Favourites against Tunisia, Panama, Colombia and Sweden and won all those games. Underdogs against Belgiums reserves, Belgium and Croatia, lost all 3.

England came into this world cup with zero expectations and gave a good account of themselves, they left with more respect than they arrived.

But world cup semi finalists? That only happened because of a very favourable fixture list

 

[sullydnl]

Finishing fourth is clearly a big overachievment, England should be pleased.

Obviously the fixtures helped but lesser England sides would have bottled it when they were chasing against Tunisia or facing a penalty shoot out against Colombia. This side did well regardless.

They need to find a midfield for the Euros though.

 

[automaticflare]

Finishing fourth is clearly a big overachievment, England should be pleased.

Obviously the fixtures helped but lesser England sides would have bottled it when they were chasing against Tunisia or facing a penalty shoot out against Colombia. This side did well regardless.

They need to find a midfield for the Euros though.

Yes I think before tournament if you said tech semi finals then most would have taken it.

 

[hobbers]

Nice dose of reality for people. Comfortably beaten by a good Belgium team. Outclassed by a decent Croatia team. Not even close to one of the top four sides in the tournament, so to finish fourth has to be a win however you look at it.

Thing is, some parts of the team are promising, but midfield is absolutely shite. Karma for misusing Scholes for all those years. Nothing on the horizon there either, going to be seeing a lot of Hendo and Dier at the next Euros.

 

[togg]

Finishing fourth is clearly a big overachievment, England should be pleased.

Obviously the fixtures helped but lesser England sides would have bottled it when they were chasing against Tunisia or facing a penalty shoot out against Colombia. This side did well regardless.

They need to find a midfield for the Euros though.

Reckon we need to find two......and rather quickly!!

 

[rcoobc]

Favourites against Tunisia, Panama, Colombia and Sweden and won all those games. Underdogs against Belgiums reserves, Belgium and Croatia, lost all 3.

England came into this world cup with zero expectations and gave a good account of themselves, they left with more respect than they arrived.

But world cup semi finalists? That only happened because of a very favourable fixture list

Agreed but did Germany "only get to the final" in 2002 because of their favourable fixture list?

You can only beat what's ahead of you and lose when you get above your station.

If England 2018 or 2002 had Germany's 2002 draw, they might well have got the finals

 

[Siorac]

Agreed but did Germany "only get to the final" in 2002 because of their favourable fixture list?

You can only beat what's ahead of you and lose when you get above your station.

If England 2018 or 2002 had Germany's 2002 draw, they might well have got the finals

Yes. But it doesn't really matter: as you say, they beat what was in front of them.

 

[automaticflare]

Agreed but did Germany "only get to the final" in 2002 because of their favourable fixture list?

You can only beat what's ahead of you and lose when you get above your station.

If England 2018 or 2002 had Germany's 2002 draw, they might well have got the finals

And lost to Brazil which is irrelevant anyways

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Agreed but did Germany "only get to the final" in 2002 because of their favourable fixture list?

You can only beat what's ahead of you and lose when you get above your station.

If England 2018 or 2002 had Germany's 2002 draw, they might well have got the finals

The 2002 side would and lost 2-1 in the final to Brazil with Ronaldinho scoring a fluky miss hit free kick. Must have dreamt that eventuality once.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

It's all fine and well saying that after they lost to Croatia but that's not what the likes of Shearer, Rio, Wright were saying on BBC and ITV beforehand.

But obviously the media don't represent the fans.

 

[siw2007]

Really good effort by the team this year. Yes we are still some way of the best sides but we’ve done well to finish 4th, and hopefully we can progress from here. We’ve got the young players coming through, they just need the chance.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

The problem everyone had with most England fans is what the tweets says WAS true but after a few wins the same fans who made fun of their team with ''it's coming home'' actually believed it themselves. The bigging up of a shite team after a few wins and talking like England deserved to be among the best was baffling for us neutrals.

Who said we deserved to be among the best! Most intelligent fans wanted the easy route to the final because it was so blindingly obvious England are not some all destroying team.

 

[Redlambs]

It's all fine and well saying that after they lost to Croatia but that's not what the likes of Shearer, Rio, Wright were saying on BBC and ITV beforehand.

But obviously the media don't represent the fans.

It doesn't, but in a way it derived from them because that shit obviously still sells. Having said that, punditry is a little different as we only get one choice to watch these games on tv, if there was more option maybe something would change.

It's funny if you think about it and the actual truth, for a long time we've been arseholes about our chances against other teams and the hooliganism and all that. So we've deserved plenty of stick and got it. What amuses me most though, is we've actually completely downplayed this tournament as a nation, yet it seems like people are determined to make it seem we've never been more arrogant about it! I get that's largely due to the media and little else, but surely you guys can't tell me all your media is fair representation and isn't just there to hype and sell shit? It's so obvious what they are doing, yet people keep falling for it and using it as a stick.

But having digs and humour is fine, fun even. It's those who are getting on their high horses about it all that makes me laugh most though, especially the ones banging on about irony and all that with the song

Who said we deserved to be among the best! Most intelligent fans wanted the easy route to the final because it was so blindingly obvious England are not some all destroying team.

I'm just going to assume all these guys are trolling now. Surely they can't all actually think England as a whole thought we had some kind of all conquering team? That's just stupid

 

[Henrik Larsson]

In terms of people management I think Southgate is a nice and good fit and has done a good job.

Tactics are mind boggling, though he deserves some credit for the focus on set pieces.

The five at the back he tried to play has to be the most pointless tactic ever given the good amount of individual quality England has. Now you end the tournament not having beaten any half decent opposition, conceded a goal in every match but one, couldn't defend a 1-0 lead against Columbia.

What the hell is the point in having three centre backs then? Might as well play with two centre halves and field another half decent footballer in attack or midfield and actually try to play instead of passing it back and forward, waiting on set pieces and bottling leads.

 

[rcoobc]

Yes. But it doesn't really matter: as you say, they beat what was in front of them.

And lost to Brazil which is irrelevant anyways

The 2002 side would and lost 2-1 in the final to Brazil with Ronaldinho scoring a fluky miss hit free kick. Must have dreamt that eventuality once.

My point is only that no-one said Germany didn't "deserve" to be in the final. This was the Germany that had been beaten 5-1 by England only a few months before by the way (and had to go through the play-offs as a result). They had to qualify for the world-cup via the play-offs, had an easy run to the final, but no one gave them any stick for it because, well, because they're Germany.

England beat what was in-front of them until they got above their station. No harm in that. Nothing to be ashamed of.

Football's coming home. Jules Rimet still gleaming.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

My point is only that no-one said Germany didn't "deserve" to be in the final. This was the Germany that had been beaten 5-1 by England only a few months before by the way (and had to go through the play-offs as a result). They had to qualify for the world-cup via the play-offs, had an easy run to the final, but no one gave them any stick for it because, well, because they're Germany.

England beat what was in-front of them until they got above their station. No harm in that. Nothing to be ashamed of.

Football's coming home. Jules Rimet still gleaming.

I totally agree. But you have a lot of Home Nation fas on this site that are deeply embittered about the England NT so we're not going to get any credit

For me, we beat the teams we were supposed to and won a penalty shootout whilst laying the foundations to play a different type of football that the FA are trying to implement from grass roots.

It progress for us. We just have to ignore the noise that will inevitably follow us around and try to get on with doing what we want to achieve going forward.

 

[Redlambs]

It's not bitter!!!

Never mind it's the same comments in the joke thread as in here, as if people can't tell the difference, it's the Englishmen over reacting. Never mind that we've actually been a lot more arrogant and stupid in previous tournaments, but because we didn't get as far no one really cared but when we actually do something, suddenly it's a big problem. No, no bitterness here, and especially not from the Home Nation guys

 

[rcoobc]

In terms of people management I think Southgate is a nice and good fit and has done a good job.

Tactics are mind boggling, though he deserves some credit for the focus on set pieces.

The five at the back he tried to play has to be the most pointless tactic ever given the good amount of individual quality England has. Now you end the tournament not having beaten any half decent opposition, conceded a goal in every match but one, couldn't defend a 1-0 lead against Columbia.

What the hell is the point in having three centre backs then? Might as well play with two centre halves and field another half decent footballer in attack or midfield and actually try to play instead of passing it back and forward, waiting on set pieces and bottling leads.

The tactics really were crazy. The commentators were treating Southgate like he was Tactical Jesus, but I was really disappointed in them.

You have players like Kane, Sterling, Vardy, etc who like to play off the last defender. So instead, Kane plays as an play-making attacking midfielder, leaving Sterling up-front by himself. Sterling who can't shoot, and really needs to play up-front in as part of a front three. Right. Now there was some logic in using Kane in this way, as he was actually quite good at it, and it meant he couldn't be marked out of the game (he was never in the game). Instead, he was used to bring in Alli and Lingard to score the goals.

Spoiler

The advantages of that are numerous. It's a compact formation that let's you play through the opposition even when they have 10 men behind the ball, and it keeps a fairly solid shape so you should avoid being hit on the counter. And if Sterling, Alli and Lingard were better players, maybe we'd be playing tomorrow. Henderson too, he is the other point of the diamond, and if he was Pirlo then we might looking at our second star.

But it's surely the wrong formation to play when Sterling is a poor finisher, Kane is a fantastic one, and Lingard and Alli can't be relied on to score all the time.

I'd probably have just gone for a front three of Sterling - Kane - Rashford and gone for a 4-5-1/4-3-3. But I don't think that would have won the thing either.

 

[rcoobc]

I totally agree. But you have a lot of Home Nation fas on this site that are deeply embittered about the England NT so we're not going to get any credit

For me, we beat the teams we were supposed to and won a penalty shootout whilst laying the foundations to play a different type of football that the FA are trying to implement from grass roots.

It progress for us. We just have to ignore the noise that will inevitably follow us around and try to get on with doing what we want to achieve going forward.

Yep

Bring on Euro 2020. Football really is coming home. Final at Wembley. A young squad, 7 games played in Russia. I remember

 

[tonnas]

Nice dose of reality for people. Comfortably beaten by a good Belgium team. Outclassed by a decent Croatia team. Not even close to one of the top four sides in the tournament, so to finish fourth has to be a win however you look at it.

Thing is, some parts of the team are promising, but midfield is absolutely shite. Karma for misusing Scholes for all those years. Nothing on the horizon there either, going to be seeing a lot of Hendo and Dier at the next Euros.

Outclassed? England outclassed Croatia in the first half and should have scored 2!!

 

[Redplane]

I'm sure it's been said before but England fans should feel very excited about the future. Your arguably in a better position than countries like Germany - and probably the Netherlands too which just now seem to slowly have some potential stars make their way through their youth systems.

When you consider the average age of the team and lack of experience with some you showed you have a ton of potential - with moments of some brilliant football (first half against Croatia was probably some of the most impressive of any team this WC). I actually saw a team out there. Two things that come with age were simply lacking - composure and mental strength. Those should resolve itself in the next 2-4 years. I for one look forward to seeing them at their next tourney - which very few people have probably said about England in a long time.

 

[rcoobc]

Outclassed? England outclassed Croatia in the first half and should have scored 2!!

To be fair though, Croatia should have scored 2 or 3 in the second half, in addition to their 1 in extra time.

 

[Redlambs]

Yep

Bring on Euro 2020. Football really is coming home. Final at Wembley. A young squad, 7 games player in Russia. I remember

Damn skippy. We are winning it! Easily.

 

[In Rainbows]

I'm sure it's been said before but England fans should feel very excited about the future. Your arguably in a better position than countries like Germany - and probably the Netherlands too which just now seem to slowly have some potential stars make their way through their youth systems.

When you consider the average age of the team and lack of experience with some you showed you have a ton of potential - with moments of some brilliant football (first half against Croatia was probably some of the most impressive of any team this WC). I actually saw a team out there. Two things that come with age were simply lacking - composure and mental strength. Those should resolve itself in the next 2-4 years. I for one look forward to seeing them at their next tourney - which very few people have probably said about England in a long time.

Yeah they have a legit golden generation coming through in the age 16-18 range with Odoi, Foden, Sancho, Gomes, Sessgnon brothers, Greenwood, Jones, etc...

If I were to nitpick that generation, I would say they lack a true midfield star that can run the show with his passing. A player like Modric and Xavi is just so important.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Reaching the semi is a bit of a hollow result, those last two losses are a bit of a reality check. Sure the 3rd place playoff is a bit of a dead rubber game in terms what's on the line, but now as things stand, bar Colombia - which still went all the way to penalties without James - England didn't beat anyone ranked in the top 20 let alone top 10.

Yeah yeah there's the 'building for the future' and all that but that second half display against Croatia was really poor tactically, England looked more gassed than the opposition who had an extra hour of football in their legs and we resorted to hoofball the moment any pressure was applied. A good showing against Belgium was important for me, I just don't see how there is more reason for optimism now than in the past.

 

[shaky]

Yeah they have a legit golden generation coming through in the age 16-18 range with Odoi, Foden, Sancho, Gomes, Sessgnon brothers, Greenwood, Jones, etc...

If I were to nitpick that generation, I would say they lack a true midfield star that can run the show with his passing. A player like Modric and Xavi is just so important.

A legit golden generation?? Every country will have great looking young players coming through. The difference will be that enough of theirs will turn out to be genuine world class. You never know, a couple of those guys might do it, but it's far more likely that a few of them don't make the grade at all and even the best turns out to be no better than what England have already.

 

[Acole9]

Yeah they have a legit golden generation coming through in the age 16-18 range with Odoi, Foden, Sancho, Gomes, Sessgnon brothers, Greenwood, Jones, etc...

If I were to nitpick that generation, I would say they lack a true midfield star that can run the show with his passing. A player like Modric and Xavi is just so important.

You can't refer to them as golden generation, they've done nothing to justify that yet.

 

[Ban]

League nations games vs Spain and Croatia will prove if England made any progression or this was just for this WC.

 

[Cascarino]

Most of the English fans I know have not been arrogant in the slightest.

 

[Tomuś]

I'd rather win it for sure but it's no big deal either way. Nobody ever remembers who wins these things.

I can tell you quite a few actually, going as far as to 1974.

 

[jmaggio]

I think we've got to accept that France Belgium have been by far the best 2 teams. The way the draws gone, it put what would have been the best finalists in the same semi final. I've said it time and time again, there is no way we would beat Belgium. I believe on our day, there was a chance we could have scummed France with a set piece or a counter attack. Fair play to them, hope my boy Pogba gets that big W.

 

[windycityfan]

I'm sure it's been said before but England fans should feel very excited about the future. Your arguably in a better position than countries like Germany - and probably the Netherlands too which just now seem to slowly have some potential stars make their way through their youth systems.

When you consider the average age of the team and lack of experience with some you showed you have a ton of potential - with moments of some brilliant football (first half against Croatia was probably some of the most impressive of any team this WC). I actually saw a team out there. Two things that come with age were simply lacking - composure and mental strength. Those should resolve itself in the next 2-4 years. I for one look forward to seeing them at their next tourney - which very few people have probably said about England in a long time.

Arguably in better position than Germany? You’re off your rocker. With all due respect to the English contingent and fans, they were outplayed and outclassed in 3 matches their level, and a penalty shootout win over Colombia is also below their aim. They feasted on pub sides. The tactics were average and the midfield was clueless, nowhere near the class required to get down to blows in big tournaments. More so, technically it feels as though they lack “condiment”. Anyway, maybe I’m reading too much into your post, but it’s actually a tad patronizing. Truth is they looked devoid of ideas and lacked class. They’ll get it right, and it’s a step in the right direction, but anyone feeling good about this outcome has a bar set a lot too low.

 

[matherto]

Nothing on the horizon there either, going to be seeing a lot of Hendo and Dier at the next Euros.

One would hope a few from the U-17 and U-20 winning teams might make some sort of appearance soon.

I know next to nothing about them though so wouldn't know if there are any midfielders or not.

 

[fallengt]

Not sure why anyone would find lot of positives out of this World cup. Yes overall England made to Semi, 3rd best WC ever. In reality they were extremely lucky with the draw, as soon as England faced a decent team they were utterly clueless under pressure and outplayed hard. Any of the Uruguay, Brazil, Spain could beat England.

Most goals came from set pieces, penalties. Couldn't build up to make something decent, defensively England was worse than Russia I'd say. Southgate also showed he read the game very slow and barely adapted well to it.

So explain to me how this England team is something you'd look forward to?

 

[MadMike]

Arguably in better position than Germany? You’re off your rocker. With all due respect to the English contingent and fans, they were outplayed and outclassed in 3 matches their level, and a penalty shootout win over Colombia is also below their aim. They feasted on pub sides. The tactics were average and the midfield was clueless, nowhere near the class required to get down to blows in big tournaments. More so, technically it feels as though they lack “condiment”. Anyway, maybe I’m reading too much into your post, but it’s actually a tad patronizing. Truth is they looked devoid of ideas and lacked class. They’ll get it right, and it’s a step in the right direction, but anyone feeling good about this outcome has a bar set a lot too low.

What are you talking about? Belgium is a much better collection of players than England and to be frank, so is Croatia.

How did you come to the conclusion that they got outplayed by opposition at “their level” but only beat pub sides? Are you aware of the recent history of England and what their level is?

Also, Sweden knocked out Italy, beat France in the qualification groups and finished top in a group that Germany bottomed giving them a very hard match to boot. Also a pub side?

This notion that any team beat by England is a pub side (even if above England in the rankings) but teams of world class players getting World Cup semis and finals is “their level” is hilarious.