English coaches/tacticians

[Andersonson]

Alot of managers listed in the thread, and Southgate is as good as some of them.

He is being downplayed heavily by fans because he likes a different style. He has done really well with England. Actually better than anyone else for 50/60 years.

Capello was a very good manager, a top one, he couldn't do what Southgate did.
Is he boring? Yes.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Hot take - English managers don't understand the importance of the mental side to football so struggle to get to the top, top level. They aren't good at getting players to perform above their potential unless they take a physical-first approach, which has been shown over and over again in the Premier League, and is why foreign managers seemed so radically different and innovative when they first arrived (e.g. Wenger).

This is weirdly not as much of an issue with Scottish managers and I couldn't tell you why, but obviously we had one of the best-ever coaches at understanding the mental side to the game...

We're catching up now with the likes of Potter but it's been slow progress. Hodgson was okay too.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Bobby Robson was the last sucessful name I can remember here in PT. How many english managers would actually trade managing a small Serie A/La Liga/Ligue 1/ Liga BPI side for even League One/SPL football? They can also send an email to the club saying they're interested in the place. I remember Rodgers had offers from Spain but preferred to continue at Celtic.

Here at Benfica / Porto / Sporting we had managers from several nationalities: dutch, ex-jugoslavian, spanish, italians, british (Toschack, Robson, Souness), brasilians, etc. Moyes actually coached in Spain and McLaren won a dutch league and managed Wolfsburg.

Yh Moyes at Sociedad was a bit of an anomaly - I feel he did 'ok' from memory? Can't have helped he spoke no Spanish and Basque is a bit alien. Don't forget the disaster of G Nev as well. There was a period of older coaches being in Europe, those names you mentioned and guys like Venables as well. I know Pearson randomly did a stint in Belgium but was sacked. Randomly Pert in our coaching staff has quite a lot of experience from around the world and speaks Portuguese & Spanish through his wife/travels - he's actually just as experienced in tenure as Ole and seems to have a lot of good connections he speaks about in coaching articles (Bielsa, Ortega, Tite) so maybe he'd think about a Liga NOS or La Liga move in the future.

 

[Abraxas]

It can't be helped by the fact that whenever an English manager does excel they rarely get a chance at the next level. You're never going to walk into a top job as an English manager unless you have a body of work behind you (or are a really lucky ex player) but then that body of work gets criticised to the nth degree and foreign managers preferred. Maybe it's the element of supposed sophistication these guys carry into the league.

If Sam Allardyce plays pragmatic football which is logical at the club's he manages, while overperforming then he is typecast and now all he can be is a firefighter. If Nuno Espirito Santo plays atrocious, men behind the ball football he gets away with it, receives plaudits and gets a step up.

There's an element of both us underrating our own but also there is a definite shortage of talent too.

 

[adexkola]

It can't be helped by the fact that whenever an English manager does excel they rarely get a chance at the next level. You're never going to walk into a top job as an English manager unless you have a body of work behind you (or are a really lucky ex player) but then that body of work gets criticised to the nth degree and foreign managers preferred. Maybe it's the element of supposed sophistication these guys carry into the league.

If Sam Allardyce plays pragmatic football which is logical at the club's he manages, while overperforming then he is typecast and now all he can be is a firefighter. If Nuno Espirito Santo plays atrocious, men behind the ball football he gets away with it, receives plaudits and gets a step up.

There's an element of both us underrating our own but also there is a definite shortage of talent too.

Very few teams aspire to play purely pragmatic football. If you want to manage at the highest levels you have to have more about you, which is why Big Sam never got a chance at top clubs here or abroad. Tottenham's appointment of Nuno says more about their desperation and current state.

 

[Abraxas]

Very few teams aspire to play purely pragmatic football. If you want to manage at the highest levels you have to have more about you, which is why Big Sam never got a chance at top clubs here or abroad. Tottenham's appointment of Nuno says more about their desperation and current state.

Top managers can and do play pragmatic football. Especially the Italians.

Yes there is a slightly different style to some of the direct stuff, but that's probably largely down to differing leagues and different suitability to certain styles depending on the players available. The ethos is still very much to get results first and foremost.

It just seems to be that once you do that you get cast aside, even though it's logical to play that way for the lesser clubs. It's as if that's the only style of management you can ever do. Then at a certain point it becomes that way because the only jobs available feature rubbish teams in trouble.

 

[Dancfc]

It can't be helped by the fact that whenever an English manager does excel they rarely get a chance at the next level. You're never going to walk into a top job as an English manager unless you have a body of work behind you (or are a really lucky ex player) but then that body of work gets criticised to the nth degree and foreign managers preferred. Maybe it's the element of supposed sophistication these guys carry into the league.

If Sam Allardyce plays pragmatic football which is logical at the club's he manages, while overperforming then he is typecast and now all he can be is a firefighter. If Nuno Espirito Santo plays atrocious, men behind the ball football he gets away with it, receives plaudits and gets a step up.

There's an element of both us underrating our own but also there is a definite shortage of talent too.

I think the not getting chances thing is a bit of a myth.

Big Sam got England (and Newcastle when they were still decent).

Roy got Liverpool and England.

McLaren got England.

Moyes got United.

Rodgers got Liverpool.

Lampard got Chelsea.

Southgate got England.

Gerrard will almost certainly get Liverpool at some point.

The problem isn't lack of chances, it's the fact they keep making a pigs ear of them.

I think a large problem is they just can't adapt their mentality to the big teams and almost seem shocked the expectations were so high, Roy and Moyes especially kept speaking like they were still at Fulham and Everton respectively, I remember the former branding a 1-0 win at Bolton a famous victory and grinning from ear to ear when they drew to Sunderland at Anfield citing any point from behind being precious.

It was actually a problem with Frank too, first year he thrived on the underdog status of the transfer ban and no expectations, second season the big stars came in and he had to win and fit them all in and he totally faltered.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Moyes got United.
Rodgers got Liverpool

To be fair Scotland has had great coaches and Brendan is NI

Lampard to Chelsea is probably the 'biggest' appointment for an English manager of recent times and most suspect that was largely because of the transfer ban, Hodgson was at Pool when they were nowhere near winning the title

 

[Abraxas]

I think the not getting chances thing is a bit of a myth.

Big Sam got England (and Newcastle when they were still decent).

Roy got Liverpool and England.

McLaren got England.

Moyes got United.

Rodgers got Liverpool.

Lampard got Chelsea.

Southgate got England.

Gerrard will almost certainly get Liverpool at some point.

The problem isn't lack of chances, it's the fact they keep making a pigs ear of them.

I think a large problem is they just can't adapt their mentality to the big teams and almost seem shocked the expectations were so high, Roy and Moyes especially kept speaking like they were still at Fulham and Everton respectively, I remember the former branding a 1-0 win at Bolton a famous victory and grinning from ear to ear when they drew to Sunderland at Anfield citing any point from behind being precious.

It was actually a problem with Frank too, first year he thrived on the underdog status of the transfer ban and no expectations, second season the big stars came in and he had to win and fit them all in and he totally faltered.

Most of them get England. But that's not the point in my opinion, it's a bit of a poisoned chalice where hardly anybody has excelled. You would expect English managers to get the England job, but it doesn't speak to the opportunities available at club level as it is a very different type of management and I think they're hired in very different ways and against different criteria.

There have been a few that have messed things up but not a massive amount.

It's not just people like Allardyce who never got a job. Eddie Howe could have been fit for a decent job but instead he ended up at Bournemouth for that long that it was almost inevitable he'd mess things up eventually at a side like that. Nevermind the fact he'd done a pretty superb job to get them where he did. Now his stock is pretty low. Maybe he could have taken the Celtic job by all accounts but at the risk of upsetting one or two it's a sidestep.

What more would Dyche have to do to get looked at? I mean seriously, he keeps that club going on a shoe string. Put the vast majority of managers in there and they are doomed. Some of that is his cult of personality and the way he's ingrained into the club of course but what else can he do to say he's ready? They'll get relegated eventually through very little fault on his part but that will be the glimmer of hope he has of an appealing step up gone.

 

[Gio]

This is weirdly not as much of an issue with Scottish managers and I couldn't tell you why. Obviously we had one of the best-ever coaches at understanding the mental side to the game.

What connects the great Scottish managers is the environment in which they grew up in. Jock Stein, Bill Shankly and Matt Busby were all part of mining communities, as was Bobby Robson if we jump just over the border. And there are similarities with Alex Ferguson's upbringing in the middle of the Govan shipyards. In these communities, the values of teamwork, togetherness, work ethic and collective organisation were forged. It's no coincidence these managers were perhaps most well renowned for their man management and their ability to squeeze every drop out of their players.

 

[Teja]

A lot has been made of poor technique in English youth after the 2010 (?) world cup and there has been a grassroots change across the pyramid to value smaller technical players more. We've ended up with players like Sterling, Foden etc. as a result and I'm sure there are better examples.

I think there has to be a managerial equivalent to this - just making an organized defence and having players work hard together and put in a shift for 90 mins isn't enough, you should aspire to do more. I think the presence of tacticians like Pep, Tuchel, Klopp etc. is a forcing function.

 

[Hammondo]

Because there is a potent strain of anti-intellectualism which runs through the core of footballing culture in this country.

The tacticians with brains went off to play, coach, and strategise in different sports - formula 1, cycling, tennis, rugby, cricket - whilst football was left with all the brawn.

It’s why Graeme le Saux was mocked as being gay for reading the guardian and hodgson drew derision for mentioning in interest in Zweig and Joseph Roth’s novels. It’s not and has never been the done thing in football to point out that you might find a book to be something of interest.

It’s the main reason why we’ve had such a paucity of tacticians, tactical thinking, theorising, developing schools of thought in football.

Why do you need tactics when you can just train boys to bulk up, run fast, tackle hard, lump the ball, do Roy of the rovers type individualistic stuff instead of thinking about how to maximise the potential of 11 men playing as a collective?

Fortunately that is changing due to the globalisation of the English game since the advent of the premiership and the influx of foreign coaches. We’ve still got a way to go towards developing our own thinkers though.

I agree with this, well written.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

What connects the great Scottish managers is the environment in which they grew up in. Jock Stein, Bill Shankly and Matt Busby were all part of mining communities, as was Bobby Robson if we jump just over the border. And there are similarities with Alex Ferguson's upbringing in the middle of the Govan shipyards. In these communities, the values of teamwork, togetherness, work ethic and collective organisation were forged. It's no coincidence these managers were perhaps most well renowned for their man management and their ability to squeeze every drop out of their players.

Excellent point.

And yes - the greatest British managers are indeed more on the "man management" side (rather than on the "tactically innovative/brilliant" side).

There are exceptions - but you have to go back pretty damn far to dig up examples of the other kind who made a difference at the highest level.

Jimmy Hogan anyone? But that's ancient history in football terms.

Stan Cullis (Wolves - the great 50s vintage) was a tactician, a very clever one at that - who realized that the continental game had surpassed the British one in many ways.

But there isn't a British (nevermind English) counterpart to the likes of Guttmann, Herrera or Michels.

 

[Hammondo]

A lot has been made of poor technique in English youth after the 2010 (?) world cup and there has been a grassroots change across the pyramid to value smaller technical players more. We've ended up with players like Sterling, Foden etc. as a result and I'm sure there are better examples.

I think there has to be a managerial equivalent to this - just making an organized defence and having players work hard together and put in a shift for 90 mins isn't enough, you should aspire to do more. I think the presence of tacticians like Pep, Tuchel, Klopp etc. is a forcing function.

When we put them together for England it doesn't work though, and we have had similar problems with players at United. When a team is not build and developed with a thorough footballing direction, things don't work. I don't remember an English manager who does this properly, focusing on the more technical aspects like the top foreign managers do.

 

[André Dominguez]

Yh Moyes at Sociedad was a bit of an anomaly - I feel he did 'ok' from memory? Can't have helped he spoke no Spanish and Basque is a bit alien. Don't forget the disaster of G Nev as well. There was a period of older coaches being in Europe, those names you mentioned and guys like Venables as well. I know Pearson randomly did a stint in Belgium but was sacked. Randomly Pert in our coaching staff has quite a lot of experience from around the world and speaks Portuguese & Spanish through his wife/travels - he's actually just as experienced in tenure as Ole and seems to have a lot of good connections he speaks about in coaching articles (Bielsa, Ortega, Tite) so maybe he'd think about a Liga NOS or La Liga move in the future.

He did OK, saved them from relegation, but a poor string of results in the second season saw him being sacked. He would have learned spanish with time, Van Gaal also took his time to speak spanish. Basque is not really necessary as a Real Sociedad manager.
Pearson actually didn't do that bad. He only got sacked in his second season, which is positive in a small club tbh.

Pert's wage is probably already out of reach for portuguese lower to midtable clubs, he would be possible for a La Liga, and it is very hard to manage in La Liga for a non-spanish. Just as an example, we now have two spanish managers at our league (we usually always have at least one every season), and usually those managers are recruited from doing good jobs on spanish lower divisions.
The other way arround rarely happens, with NES actually being the exception.

He might have his chance at Braga if someone reccomends him, for when Carvalhal decides to return to England or go to Saudi Arabia getting a huge paychek.

 

[Hammondo]

Alot of managers listed in the thread, and Southgate is as good as some of them.

He is being downplayed heavily by fans because he likes a different style. He has done really well with England. Actually better than anyone else for 50/60 years.

Capello was a very good manager, a top one, he couldn't do what Southgate did.
Is he boring? Yes.

His competition is the worst in that time though.

 

[FootballHQ]

Wanting to stay up doesn't mean you have to go for a Dinosaur though. For example the coaching careers of Klopp, Tuchel and Nagelsmann all took off when small clubs in critical situations put their trust in them. There is obviously value in experience, but being one step ahead of the competition tactically can be much more valuable.

I agree but there's a difference in mentality with regards relegation. Klopp, Wenger and Conte all had it early in their coaching careers in their respective countries but got other chances to grow and develop as coaches.

Going down in England is basically seen as a death knell for career. Obviously if you go down regularly like Warnock that shows limits to top level managerial career but as said above Eddie Howe basically been written off now despite many seasons of excellent work at Bournemouth.

 

[FootballHQ]

Redknapp at Spurs was probably last successful English coach at reasonably top club.

Didn't win anything of course (but did at Pompey the season before) but kept them up for the infamous 2 points from 8 games start then qualified them for top 4 in his first full season, next season they finished 5th but got to QF of CL and next season they finished 4th but in true Spurs style they missed out due to Chelsea winning CL.

Anyway that's a pretty solid body of work considering the state they were in when he turned up but even then there was a perception he was winging it or Spurs had about 10 world class players on their books so even that was downplayed.

Didn't help though he had the court case in his last season which cost him the England job and eventually Levy got tired of him although took them a good 4 seasons to get back up to those heights.

Logical step would've been to go on to another top 6 club but instead ended up at QPR and basically that was end of his top flight management career when they got relegated.

 

[Wolf1992]

Is appointing Big Sam any more lazy than Man. United appointing Van Gaal for example?

Van Gaal has a better reputation, thus a foreign owner will choose Van Gaal over Big Sam, he doesn't care about developing english managers who have potential, he just thinks about making money, so he will go for the safer option.

And this is when you start to see one of the downsides of having so many foreign-owned clubs in a league.
That's why i don't see Potter managing a big side in EPL...the likes of Zidane,Conte,Mancini,Luis Enrique,etc will be put ahead of Potter.

 

[Wolf1992]

Saw my post above and forgot to mention one other thing (it won't be another essay this time I promise).

Foreign ownership.

When you have ownership that isn't local they're more likely to scour continent for latest up and coming manager or already established one. Even likes of Real Madrid and Barca in last 20 years have appointed more local managers than premier league top clubs.

Abramovich only appointed one British manager in his 20 years and that was obviously one of his favourite players. Man. United not going back to that option in a hurry after Moyes. Liverpool owners did give Rodgers a chance so perhaps they'll go for domestic option post Klopp so likes of Potter might be in the frame. Inevitably Gerrard will get it one day.

One to watch might be Manchester City actually. I've read it a few times in the past their owners and Tixi rate Brendan Rodgers very highly and apparently he was one of the options if Pep hadn't decided to come so given he's done well at Leicester that would be interesting option if he leaves in next year or two.

There's certainly a blockage at top end of premier league compared to other euro leagues that still give good chances to local coaches. Sevilla usually appoint Spanish coaches, same for Villareal and while Valencia have underachieved lately they're still a massive club in Spain and gave Bordalas a shot after some great work at Getafe.

In Italy Pioli been kept on at AC Milan despite not winning much in his career. They also have Giampaolo a few years back who was total disaster. And Bayern given Flick and Nagalsmann chances.

Exactly.

Foreign owners will prefer a foreign manager if its the safer option rather than give the chance to a english manager with potential, as they want insta results.

Can't see United going for Potter if Ole leaves at the end of the season, pretty sure they will give preference to Zidane,Conte, or try to convince Mancini and Luis Enrique to leave their NTs and join Manchester.

 

[Green_Red]

I think foreign teams (outside England) are more willing to give inexperienced coaches a go. Can you imagine Scholes (Pirlo equivalent) being given a go at United, like Pirlo was a Juve? Or Keane being given a go at United like Luis Enrique was given at Barca? That is why, more chances for foreign coaches will produce more managers. How many of the top 6 English teams have Englidh managers? How many English managers even in the Prem?

 

[Cheimoon]

I think foreign teams (outside England) are more willing to give inexperienced coaches a go. Can you imagine Scholes (Pirlo equivalent) being given a go at United, like Pirlo was a Juve? Or Keane being given a go at United like Luis Enrique was given at Barca? That is why, more chances for foreign coaches will produce more managers. How many of the top 6 English teams have Englidh managers? How many English managers even in the Prem?

But how about Lampard at Chelsea, Ole at United, Arteta at Arsenal, or Nuno at Spurs just in the last few years? You could also add Rodgers at Liverpool and Pochetino at Spurs here, going back a little further. None of those were proven at a high level before, I would say. At best, a few had been considered to be overachieving at a smaller club in the EPL.

 

[Green_Red]

But how about Lampard at Chelsea, Ole at United, Arteta at Arsenal, or Nuno at Spurs just in the last few years? You could also add Rodgers at Liverpool and Pochetino at Spurs here, going back a little further. None of those were proven at a high level before, I would say. At best, a few had been considered to be overachieving at a smaller club in the EPL.

Only one of those people are English. Rodgers was in management a long time before he was given a job at Liverpool too.

 

[Cheimoon]

Only one of those people are English

The point is that the problem lies elsewhere. You didn't mention the nationality of coaches in your post, you just said that inexperienced coaches get a chance at top clubs outside the EPL as if that's a difference. I'm saying it isn't, inexperienced coaches get chances in the EPL as well. The question is then instead why those inexperienced coaches aren't English in the EPL. And the reason is not because clubs are bringing in foreigners from abroad, cause all of the people I listed had English experience.

Also, if only one person from my list is English, then Keane isn't a good example in your list either. And for that matter, Keane did get a chance at management, and it didn't go well. Similarly, Giggs (although also not English) was in line at United, but lost that spot when Van Gaal was fired. Carrick might be in a similar position now.

So I suppose the question is rather: why are English coaches unable to break through into the big time when they're being assistant in the EPL or managing in the lower leagues? Given everything that's been discussed here so far, I think a perceived lack of quality is the obvious answer.

 

[Green_Red]

The point is that the problem lies elsewhere. You didn't mention the nationality of coaches in your post, you just said that inexperienced coaches get a chance at top clubs outside the EPL as if that's a difference. I'm saying it isn't, inexperienced coaches get chances in the EPL as well. The question is then instead why those inexperienced coaches aren't English in the EPL. And the reason is not because clubs are bringing in foreigners from abroad, cause all of the people I listed had English experience.

Also, if only one person from my list is English, then Keane isn't a good example in your list either. And for that matter, Keane did get a chance at management, and it didn't go well. Similarly, Giggs (although also not English) was in line at United, but lost that spot when Van Gaal was fired. Carrick might be in a similar position now.

So I suppose the question is rather: why are English coaches unable to break through into the big time when they're being assistant in the EPL or managing in the lower leagues?

This is a thread titled "English coaches/tacticians"

and the first post literally says:

"I can't think of any English coaches that stands out or has achieved anything meaningful in the last 30 years - why is that?"

have you been drinking?

 

[Cheimoon]

This is a thread titled "English coaches/tacticians"

and the first post literally says:

"I can't think of any English coaches that stands out or has achieved anything meaningful in the last 30 years - why is that?"

have you been drinking?

I was responding to your post, which was suggesting that the problem is that inexperienced coaches are not getting chances. Here's your first line: "I think foreign teams (outside England) are more willing to give inexperienced coaches a go." I disagree with the statement for the reasons I laid out, and that's why I said 'I think the problem lies elsewhere'. I.e., elsewhere than where you're searching it.

So, who's the careful reader here and who's the drinker, if those are our only options?

 

[Green_Red]

I was responding to your post, which was suggesting that the problem is that inexperienced coaches are not getting chances. Here's your first line: "I think foreign teams (outside England) are more willing to give inexperienced coaches a go." I disagree with the statement for the reasons I laid out, and that's why I said 'I think the problem lies elsewhere'. I.e., elsewhere than where you're searching it.

So, who's the careful reader here and who's the drinker, if those are our only options?

I gave two examples of foreign coaches with limited experience getting chances at the very biggest clubs in football and pointed that isn't happening for English coaches. That is a fact.

If Wayne Rooney had played for Barca/Real/Juve he wouldn't be managing a team bottom of Serie B... that's the difference.

Chances given = talent produced. More opportunities for new managers to show their ability in foreign leagues, so much so even English teams are overlooking English coach's with the same level of qualifications and experience .

 

[Withnail]

They should have changed their name to Allardici.

 

[Cheimoon]

I gave two examples of foreign coaches with limited experience getting chances at the very biggest clubs in football and pointed that isn't happening for English coaches. That is a fact.

If Wayne Rooney had played for Barca/Real/Juve he wouldn't be managing a team bottom of Serie B... that's the difference.

Ole at United, Lampard at Chelsea, Arteta at Arsenal.

Anyway, even if you discount those for some reason, I'm arguing that English coaches not getting these opportunities in the EPL at top clubs is not because they're English, since inexperienced coaches of various nationalities who have been in the EPL in various capacities have all gotten chances. The much more logical reason is that clubs are seeing an issue with the quality of up and coming English coaches.

Maybe the problem is that English football is too cut-throat, and young managers aren't allowed to have negative results before being written off (like what @FootballHQ said about Howe). Since English managers don't go abroad much, that means they're all 'growing up' in that overly critical environment - if this is indeed an issue.

 

[FootballHQ]

Comparable example to Howe is probably Giampaolo in Italy.

Does alright at Sampdoria (can't remember if they ever qualified for europa) and then gets Milan gig where he was complete and utter disaster.

In England next step would be championship but he then gets the Torino job....where he's again complete and utter disaster so foreign leagues certainly give coaches more leeway if you fail once.

Gasipierini didn't work out at Inter Milan a decade ago but then got further Serie A chances at Palermo and Genoa and found his perfect fit at Atalanta now.

Will be interesting where Howe and Lampard end up next.

 

[Green_Red]

I've seen some questionable likes for newbies from you and zi

Comparable example to Howe is probably Giampaolo in Italy.

Does alright at Sampdoria (can't remember if they ever qualified for europa) and then gets Milan gig where he was complete and utter disaster.

In England next step would be championship but he then gets the Torino job....where he's again complete and utter disaster so foreign leagues certainly give coaches more leeway if you fail once.

Gasipierini didn't work out at Inter Milan a decade ago but then got further Serie A chances at Palermo and Genoa and found his perfect fit at Atalanta now.

Will be interesting where Howe and Lampard end up next.

Probably TV punditry. Howe couldn't even land the Celtic job...

 

[Cheimoon]

I've seen some questionable likes for newbies from you and zi

Edit: Actually, let's take your ad hominem out of here so the thread can stay on topic. I'll repost what I wrote in the admin thread.

 

[FootballHQ]

I've seen some questionable likes for newbies from you and zi

Probably TV punditry. Howe couldn't even land the Celtic job...

Don't think Howe would be that interesting on TV.

Get the feeling he's waiting for Southampton job to come up anyway given it's local for him and wouldn't be that bad a fit. That will probably be best club he can do if he wants another premier league job, maybe Brighton perhaps if Potter leaves in next 18 months.