English cricket thread

[NinjaFletch]

You go on about Foakes, have you ever seen him play at county level? I certainly haven't.

It's easy for us to make conclusions based on media reports, but unless we actually watch these players day-in, day-out (which is very difficult given county cricket is hardly ever on TV) it's hard to make conclusive judgements.

We can only assume that Foakes is a better keeper than Buttler (tbh it's not difficult) but there must be a reason they keep choosing Buttler.

My guess is that 1) They think Foakes' batting has a big technical problem or 2) They value Buttler's tactical and leadership skills and feel Foakes is too quiet.

Well it's not like Foakes is an unknown at this level, he was man of the series in Sri Lanka!

The issue is really simple, they're betting on Buttler coming good because of his undeniable talent. Foakes isn't as flashy a batsman as Buttler (although has a better red-ball record), but he's a significantly better gloveman. They simply want to give a player they think has a higher top-side as long as possible.

But the truth is the stats are grim.

He has played 44 tests; he has one hundred. Foakes, has one too, and he has played just five tests.

And Buttler's first class stats are equally as grim.

There's a point where you have to go 'you know what? he's not a youngster anymore and he's played a career's worth of games, this is just his level'.

I'm not convinced Foakes would come in and immediately offer you many more runs (although I think he'd do better with the bat) but he's a far, far, superior gloveman and when Buttler's not getting runs either (let's hope he does tomorrow) it's not a difficult choice.

 

[YAMS49]

Ian Bell?

Collingwood, although he was probably 5 likes Stokes is now & Bell at 6.

My point is we had the all rounder who could bowl so the keeper batted at 7. An in form Woakes can bat at 7 IF required, he has a far better base technique than Bresnan & Swann, the latter especially.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Well it's not like Foakes is an unknown at this level, he was man of the series in Sri Lanka!

The issue is really simple, they're betting on Buttler coming good because of his undeniable talent. Foakes isn't as flashy a batsman as Buttler (although has a better red-ball record), but he's a significantly better gloveman. They simply want to give a player they think has a higher top-side as long as possible.

But the truth is the stats are grim.

He has played 44 tests; he has one hundred. Foakes, has one too, and he has played just five tests.

And Buttler's first class stats are equally as grim.

There's a point where you have to go 'you know what? he's not a youngster anymore and he's played a career's worth of games, this is just his level'.

I'm not convinced Foakes would come in and immediately offer you many more runs (although I think he'd do better with the bat) but he's a far, far, superior gloveman and when Buttler's not getting runs either (let's hope he does tomorrow) it's not a difficult choice.

Yeah, can't disagree with any of that.

The interesting thing is that Buttler's best run in the test side was when he was batting six and not keeping.

By all accounts, he's a brilliant team man and they rely heavily on him for tactics. If that's the case, why not move Pope up, give Foakes the gloves and put Buttler at 6?

 

[JohnnyKills]

Collingwood, although he was probably 5 likes Stokes is now & Bell at 6.

My point is we had the all rounder who could bowl so the keeper batted at 7. An in form Woakes can bat at 7 IF required, he has a far better base technique than Bresnan & Swann, the latter especially.

No. 7 is always required to bat.

 

[DOTA]

Collingwood, although he was probably 5 likes Stokes is now & Bell at 6.

My point is we had the all rounder who could bowl so the keeper batted at 7. An in form Woakes can bat at 7 IF required, he has a far better base technique than Bresnan & Swann, the latter especially.

Joe Root has more wickets at a better average than Collingwood. We have an all rounder, even without Stokes, if that's the standard.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Feels like a million years ago that Woakes made his debut @ 6.

One thing I find interesting with England is how difficult it is for guys to recalibrate their game. Root, Bairstow, Woakes and Ali are all guys who have played a lot of cricket in all formats for England over the last few years and it's felt as though their batting has gone to shit in tests in the last few years but they don't really get a chance to just go and bat for long periods and work stuff out. They have to face the world's best bowlers all the time. England's best batsmen currently are the guys who have scored heavily in county cricket in recent years and Ben Stokes, who is a freak.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Joe Root has more wickets at a better average than Collingwood. We have an all rounder, even without Stokes, if that's the standard.

That's a great stat.

 

[YAMS49]

No. 7 is always required to bat.

Really? I never realised, thanks for that.

 

[YAMS49]

Joe Root has more wickets at a better average than Collingwood. We have an all rounder, even without Stokes, if that's the standard.

Collingwood was a 5th bowler in his day, Root definitely isn't.

 

[DOTA]

Collingwood was a 5th bowler in his day, Root definitely isn't.

Which day was this?

His bowling was a running joke after some commentator referred to him as England's 'partnership breaker' at a time when his combined test career was something like 0-250. He only just got his average under 60 by the end. Do bowling averages not matter either? Is it alright that he never got wickets because he shaped up nicely?

 

[JohnnyKills]

Well it's not like Foakes is an unknown at this level, he was man of the series in Sri Lanka!

The issue is really simple, they're betting on Buttler coming good because of his undeniable talent. Foakes isn't as flashy a batsman as Buttler (although has a better red-ball record), but he's a significantly better gloveman. They simply want to give a player they think has a higher top-side as long as possible.

But the truth is the stats are grim.

He has played 44 tests; he has one hundred. Foakes, has one too, and he has played just five tests.

And Buttler's first class stats are equally as grim.

There's a point where you have to go 'you know what? he's not a youngster anymore and he's played a career's worth of games, this is just his level'.

I'm not convinced Foakes would come in and immediately offer you many more runs (although I think he'd do better with the bat) but he's a far, far, superior gloveman and when Buttler's not getting runs either (let's hope he does tomorrow) it's not a difficult choice.

Good piece here on Buttler. https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/...needs-convert-start-lacklustre-keeping-effort

 

[YAMS49]

Which day was this?

His bowling was a running joke after some commentator referred to him as England's 'partnership breaker' at a time when his combined test career was something like 0-250. He only just got his average under 60 by the end. Do bowlers averages not batter either? Is it alright that he never got wickets because he shaped up nicely?

Every game he played as the 5th bowler in that team, happened on lots of occasions.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Which day was this?

His bowling was a running joke after some commentator referred to him as England's 'partnership breaker' at a time when his combined test career was something like 0-250. He only just got his average under 60 by the end. Do bowling averages not matter either? Is it alright that he never got wickets because he shaped up nicely?

Come on now, he did get Ponting out.

 

[DOTA]

Come on now, he did get Ponting out.

5th bowler.

 

[JohnnyKills]

5th bowler.

Haha great footage

 

[paulscholes18]

Yep thought the same thing. Not sure how he comes out of it but he needs to do something. His average is not just over 48 but used to be over 50.

3 years ago he got his average up to 55, so in the space of 3 years his average has dropped by 7 and he’s gone from one of the best 3 batsmen in the world to arguably England’s 3rd best batsmen (if not 4th with Stokes, Pope & Sibley ahead of him)

 

[JohnnyKills]

3 years ago he got his average up to 55, so in the space of 3 years his average has dropped by 7 and he’s gone from one of the best 3 batsmen in the world to arguably England’s 3rd best batsmen (if not 4th with Stokes, Pope & Sibley ahead of him)

Surely the answer is to take the captaincy off him, but it's hard to see any alternative candidates and they're all-in with him ahead of the Ashes it seems.

Personally I'd be in favour of giving it to Broad as a short-term measure, until one of the batsmen emerges.

 

[YAMS49]

Personally I'd be in favour of giving it to Broad as a short-term measure, until one of the batsmen emerges.

Broad is no captain, too emotionally invested. They also won't be taking it off Root in the short or medium term, they are trying to build.

 

[DOTA]

Personally I'd be in favour of giving it to Broad as a short-term measure, until one of the batsmen emerges.

He'd bat himself at six.

 

[YAMS49]

Imagine Buttler standing up like this to one of our seamers....

 

[YAMS49]

He'd bat himself at six.

He can't, I have Woakes there already.

 

[DOTA]

He can't, I have Woakes there already.

I'm so hoping he scores some today and I look ridiculous.

 

[YAMS49]

I'm so hoping he scores some today and I look ridiculous.

I think it will be me looking the ridiculous one tbh.... But then again I did say an 8 on current form....

 

[paulscholes18]

feck, that be England all out before lunch, at least they got past the follow-on score

 

[sammsky1]

Poor Pope to get that unplayable ball from Naseem.

was a very gritty first hour and Pope/Buttler were under sustainable pressure.

kid might just through England’s tail

 

[Samid]

English heatwave in full effect.

 

[ha_rooney]

Good session of cricket. Hopefully we can get England all out with a lead of around 100. Don’t trust our batting enough.

 

[YAMS49]

Fascinating session, I'd call that one even. Slow progress with the bat but only the one wicket to a great delivery. Pakistan in control.

 

[YAMS49]

Yasir seems to have lost some control, not quite as good as the hype/200 wickets suggests. He's bowling 99% leg breaks as well, where's his top spinner gone?

 

[DOTA]

Pitch looks tame at the moment. We're gonna have to somehow bat most of the rest of the day here, I think.

 

[sammsky1]

This Pakistan team really know how to play test cricket and are really enjoyable and fascinating to watch. Conversely, they are also forcing England to play test cricket too.

Their bowling attack is so balanced and I love the way they are trying to set up batsman with plans and traps.

England will most likely lose this test as they will have to chase a final innings target against 2 quality leggies. Pakistan’s desire to bat first makes a lot of sense now, and the toss itself will have an influence on who wins the series.

 

[JohnnyKills]

He'd bat himself at six.

And waste all the reviews on himself

 

[YAMS49]

I could watch Abbas bowl all day. All three of the seamers actually. Such good cricket.

 

[zing]

I could watch Abbas bowl all day. All three of the seamers actually. Such good cricket.

Feel like Abbas is clearly superior to the other two. The other two get hyped a lot.

 

[zing]

This Pakistan team really know how to play test cricket and are really enjoyable and fascinating to watch. Conversely, they are also forcing England to also play test cricket/

Their bowling attack is so balanced and I love the way they are trying to set up batsman with plans and traps.

England will most likely lose this test as they will have to chase a final innings target against 2 quality leggies. Pakistan’s desire to bat first makes a lot of sense now, and the toss itself will have an influence on who wins the series.

Do they really have two quality leg spinners? One of them hasn’t got a bowl fifty overs in. I haven’t seen enough of him to know if he is good. Yasir looks woefully out of rhythm.

It is hard to see consistency from the Pakistan batsmen in back to back innings. I hope that happens. England are still in this because the next innings will determine a lot and they too have great bowlers.

 

[YAMS49]

Feel like Abbas is clearly superior to the other two. The other two get hyped a lot.

He's better I agree. It's a well balanced pace attack. The line & length, the left armer and then the 17yr old tearing in. Just fun to watch.

 

[ha_rooney]

Do they really have two quality leg spinners? One of them hasn’t got a bowl fifty overs in. I haven’t seen enough of him to know if he is good. Yasir looks woefully out of rhythm.

It is hard to see consistency from the Pakistan batsmen in back to back innings. I hope that happens. England are still in this because the next innings will determine a lot and they too have great bowlers.

I rate Shadab in limited overs cricket but I don’t think he has the patience & control to be a top class Test spinner yet. He is capable of taking a wicket & gets it to spin so it’s not like he’s the last resort. I think the way the seamers have bowled, they’ll keep one seamer one end & Yasir the other.

Yasir hasnt been at his best, but he’s capable of putting in a match-winning spell at any moment. Looks like he’s been munching a bit in lockdown though.

 

[sammsky1]

Do they really have two quality leg spinners? One of them hasn’t got a bowl fifty overs in. I haven’t seen enough of him to know if he is good. Yasir looks woefully out of rhythm.

It is hard to see consistency from the Pakistan batsmen in back to back innings. I hope that happens. England are still in this because the next innings will determine a lot and they too have great bowlers.

I mean in a final innings when there is considerable pitch damage, that will aide any decent leggie.

 

[ha_rooney]

And that’s what he can do... good early wicket after lunch.

 

[sammsky1]

Do they really have two quality leg spinners? One of them hasn’t got a bowl fifty overs in. I haven’t seen enough of him to know if he is good.
Yasir looks woefully out of rhythm.

Ahem!