The weird part was Frank not really looking to change things and have more of a go. Maybe if we'd played Weghorst he would have.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager / awaiting clarity from the club over his position
- Thread starter sewey89
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The way Brentford played is how they usually play. They concede possession and hit people on the break. IIRC, they had 35% possession against Brighton.
However, it's difficult for these teams to execute this kind of style when we have our starting back 2. They're that solid.
Yeah imagine being up against Martinez. You‘d be right fecked.
So Brentford is another Ole-ball team?
So "opponents played too defensively" is being used to downplay the manager and the team's victory now?
Ridiculous statement. And stop fecking comparing Erik to Ole.
Ridiculous statement. And stop fecking comparing Erik to Ole.
I skimmed last few pages, wow so much nonsense was posted.I think we all know who they are by now
But, but, they don't have agendas. Yet they literally only appear after a defeat.
I should have clarified, I meant I thought they'd move to 4 at the back at halftime or 55 minutes in and bring on a winger for a CB.
Well we spent £250m to improve it so I do hope our squad this year is better than it was last season.
Follow the conversation that isn’t in question
Ten Hag isn't fit to lace Ole's iPad
Every time Newcastle moved forward they had a shot or a corner. They accumulated 3,7xG.
You don't go from that to "dominating" Brentford because Bruno dropped deeper and Sabitzer was making runs forward. Yes, Brentford played very defensively. Yes, we did have a good (decent?) game. I believe a lot of people on here are overthinking this in terms of tactical analysis.
Question: do you think we wouldn't have dominated them if Bruno played his normal position and we used McFred midfield?
You can't do high press if the opposition team don't play from the back. Playing from the back is only just came out recently not in the last 15 years!!
The truth is their pressing is more in the middle rather than high press hence why I said they did less high pressing.
@NLunited should read this
He was mostly using him through the middle as a number 10 (and occasionally on the right in a more reserved set up) before the injuries and suspensions fecked up our midfield completely.
He puts him deeper because he’s our only midfielder that can compensate for Casemiro & Eriksen’s playmaking from deeper areas, not because he doesn’t know where to put him.
Sure enough. We've only conceded only 8 goals in 14 games at home and IIRC we've not conceded two goals against anyone at home except for that Brighton debacle featuring captain Fantastic. So that's 7 clean sheets in 14, pretty good.
I guess but that's not unusual for a relegation candidate (which they were before the start of the season, especially given the profile of their players.
My tactical knowledge, particular on Brentford, doesn't stretch that far tbh. What I've seen from them is they use a style of play and stick to it. It's worked great recently, so no need to change it much.
The players we have had out injured/suspended for so long has proved costly for us. Ten Hag has done well this season and when he has all players back we will win another trophy and finish ahead of Newcastle for 3rd place imo.
Overall, I think he is doing ok.
First season got us Carabao Cup, challenging for Top 4, final stages of Europa and FA Cup.
He has done this with either Eriksen or Casemeiro out for long time (or both) and only have 1 proven striker.
Next season should be much better after further reinforcement. Need the owner to support him.
First season got us Carabao Cup, challenging for Top 4, final stages of Europa and FA Cup.
He has done this with either Eriksen or Casemeiro out for long time (or both) and only have 1 proven striker.
Next season should be much better after further reinforcement. Need the owner to support him.
He has overseen an overall improvement in this season, which is what we want.
Perhaps we aren't as good yet as some made us out to be and there's plenty of massive issues with the team that still need addressed.
That said if he ends the season with a top four position and a trophy, maybe more than one with some luck, then you would be hard pressed not to agree we're on the right track.
Perhaps we aren't as good yet as some made us out to be and there's plenty of massive issues with the team that still need addressed.
That said if he ends the season with a top four position and a trophy, maybe more than one with some luck, then you would be hard pressed not to agree we're on the right track.
At the peak of our powers this season, against City at home, when we had everyone fit Ten Hag played with 4 midfielders. Casemiro, Fred, Eriksen, Bruno.
We needed to have at least 4 midfielders for us not to be overrun through the middle.
Bruno was number 7 but we know he's not a winger can't run or dribble. On possession he was operating mainly from the middle.
And still we had 30% possession. 30%. Remember our equalizer? That's when all our players were available, talk of title charge was there etc.
I've said countless times the problem with our team is we need 2 players doing 1 players job.
Only Casemiro, Martinez, Rashford this season and Shaw to some extent who are complete footballers in their position.
All others players have serious deficiencies that can not be coached off, but needs another player to mask them off,
Bissaka best defender, dogshit going forward. ( Trippier, Walker are better)
Bruno Hollywood passes, but can't hold on the ball when pressed, can't run with the ball, doesn't know how to control or recycle a football. ( Odergaard, KDB are better)
Antony can hold the ball/works hard but doesn't know how to assist or go past an opponent. (Saka, Mahrez are better)
Fred, Scot - been discussed for years. They were doing Casemiro job. 2 of them. ( Even Newcastle midfielders are better)
Eriksen has better control,final pass but has zero physicality/Stamina, cant dribble with ball. ( Xhaka, Gundugan are better)
Sancho a good technical ability but zero physicality/stamina directness. (Foden, Grealish, Martineli, Trossard are better)
Martial less said the better. (Jesus, Alvarez, Halland, are better)
Varane - better reading the game, not so good when pressed, can't pass highly consistently from the back. (Stone, Dias, Gabriel,Saliba are better)
De Gea - above average shot stopping but can't pass when pressed and poor pass completion rates. ( Ederson, Ramsdale, Allison, Pope are all better)
As you can see, that almost 7 positions with players who seems to be good but when you're honest enough with yourself it's not good enough for a title winning club.
That's why we are still a 70 points team.
We are still a very limited team.
We should be very supportive of the manager when he tries to move all this below good players away.
With striking and midfield overhaul being the first course of action.
That is correct. With Messi on the team you are pressing with 10 1/2 men.
Note that on Wednesday, Bruno was playing in Shaw‘s position during build up, and Shaw in midfield.
McFred is such a darkhorse of a midfield combination that it's hard to say/predict anything about them. But if we assume them on their good day where none play like a headless chicken, yes they would have sufficed mainly because it was a home game but if they both decide to play shit then even a League 2 midfield would run rings around them so I can understand the decision of playing Bruno deeper (safer than starting both McFred) and Sabitzer further (maybe it was an experiment more than anything? he used to be good there). As for Newcastle game, we had 55% possession so I wouldn't say we were getting dominated either and I knew we were gonna struggle in that game because it's away and after international break, not trying to make an excuse but I'm so familiar about our players having a shitty game after meaningless international break. Not the mention some of them have been playing non stop this season.
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The manager and coaching staffs have gone backwards, I've never seen them use iPads..... what are they doing, we have techmology.
Or perhaps injuries, lack of quality squad depth, along with lack of a recognized striker completely hampered us. There are big issues with the squad but when ETH had a full squad we were much better naturally.
How is playing Bruno deeper safer than Fred (since McTominay played anyway)?
Imo ETH is pushing Bruno to areas he should not be playing.
Our top level (when everyone is fit) is very high.
But we are too reliant on individuals to get be title contender at the moment. There are obvious reasons for that, but I just think this "top level" which we presented against Barca fooled some people that we're actually in the race with City and Arsenal. That explains why they are now disappointed.
Im thinking about Eth and what he's had to deal with this season. If we list our best starting 11, most would have something like
Ddg
Dalot varane Martinez Shaw
Casemiro eriksen
Antony Bruno rashford
Martial
Arguable to swap Dalot and awb depending on game? But would most agree with that?
If so I'm curious to see how many games they've started together.
And if they've had consecutive games run and the results as it feels like we've had our starting midfield missing for the majority of 2023, (didn't sign not start casemiro for the first two months) and Antony has been missing pre and post world cup and martial for like two games.
Obviously it's a squad game but it feels like the positions that we've missed we don't have like for like so that we aren't harmed by a player missing. What he's done has been great, and really hope he can bring in 4 quality players in the summer (and sell quite a bit to even it out)
Ddg
Dalot varane Martinez Shaw
Casemiro eriksen
Antony Bruno rashford
Martial
Arguable to swap Dalot and awb depending on game? But would most agree with that?
If so I'm curious to see how many games they've started together.
And if they've had consecutive games run and the results as it feels like we've had our starting midfield missing for the majority of 2023, (didn't sign not start casemiro for the first two months) and Antony has been missing pre and post world cup and martial for like two games.
Obviously it's a squad game but it feels like the positions that we've missed we don't have like for like so that we aren't harmed by a player missing. What he's done has been great, and really hope he can bring in 4 quality players in the summer (and sell quite a bit to even it out)
Totally agree. I think before the season started most would have been delighted with just a top 4 finish. Anything else is a bonus.
I think Bruno is being shifted around to accommodate Fred and McTominay if anything.Good teams make every other team look poor.
I've said it a million times, with better control, better midfield, better football recycling we can be a very very top team.
Surprised yesterday there was no talk of lack of desire or attitude?it's because we were in control of the game for large periods of it.
Countless times I've said, Bruno is the quagmire of the midfield, you see how Ten Hag is putting him in different positions is because Bruno doesn't do any modern midfielders job, and the manager is looking for ways to use him well while masking his biggest deficiencies which are holding the ball, press resistance, ball carrier and one time mispasses.
I've also said, many times for Ten Hag to be successful in United he needs to revamp the midfield. Either through coaching or through new players.
And my conviction of the matter is being reinforced by him with how he keeps Bruno playing in different positions, (not that Bruno is a world beater in all position but because putting Bruno out is not viable now) but eventually we will see a new midfield pairings.
100% Ten Hag knows where our problems are.
100% he will solve them if properly backed.
We just have to cross our fingers he gets 2 genuine quality midfielders.
With control of football games like yesterday,
20 games outright we can win in a season.
7-10 games we can change the results by more effort and belief.
8 games is a toss of the coin. Depends on form of the day ( this are Anfield games, Etihad etc).
In a instant we become a 80-90 points team.
Don't think ETH trusts Fred anywhere near our own back four anymore.
I don't remember the last time he played as a regular CM, was it against Brentford away?
Like what Rangnick said the squad need open heart surgery with 10 to 11 new players to play modern football. We are half way through.
After next summer reinforcement we should be there or thereabouts.
Next season aim is still Top 4 and go later stages of CL football. I miss those big European nights.
After next summer reinforcement we should be there or thereabouts.
Next season aim is still Top 4 and go later stages of CL football. I miss those big European nights.
I thought he was deeper than Fred(once he came on) in the last game.
I am talking about Fred playing more advanced since that fiasco against Brentford away as I agreed with you that ETH doesn't trust Fred there anymore.
I am confused who you are talking about in above post.
He's got a big job ahead.
We have a weak midfield and no striker.
We have very little pace and power with rashford the only player with both. No surprise that he's our biggest goal threat. Garnacho is fast and direct. That's about it.
We do have an excellent backline.
We also have many technically good forwards that are mostly small and good at possession. Sancho, Antony, Facundo, Diallo, VDB and Martial.
A decent foundation of possession oriented forwards.
Can you win a PL without pace and power?
We have a weak midfield and no striker.
We have very little pace and power with rashford the only player with both. No surprise that he's our biggest goal threat. Garnacho is fast and direct. That's about it.
We do have an excellent backline.
We also have many technically good forwards that are mostly small and good at possession. Sancho, Antony, Facundo, Diallo, VDB and Martial.
A decent foundation of possession oriented forwards.
Can you win a PL without pace and power?
Sorry get what you mean. I thought you were talking about Bruno.
Yeah agree Fred isn't being trusted in his own half right now. It says a lot if Bruno is preferred there because he's not exactly Mr ball retention himself.
I think since the Liverpool game Fred has been out of favour. I'm guessing he didn't follow the plan set out pre game.
I don’t get the pessimism.
We knew going into the season that playing out of the press, ball progression and midfield passing were huge issues with McFred. By going out and getting Casemiro, Martinez and Eriksen, ETH addressed those issues. Two of those 3 are not available, and they really unlock our quick transitions, which play to Rashford’s strengths. I’ve seen enough this season to know, ETH has the most important ingredients for a top level manager: presence in the locker room, tactical ability, astute scouting / transfers, translation of tactics to games.
‘If we don’t make top 4, of course, I’ll be disappointed. But Both results and eye test confirm that on balance, we’ve really improved versus last season. Ten Hag has been excellent this year, and I believe that he’ll continue to scrap results to get us where we need to be.
BTW, Brentford was awful this time around. But, just getting control of the match was a big plus when you have Scotty playing a prominent role.
I think the difference is Bruno gives away the ball trying flicks and risky passes. As opposed to Fred whose touch and simple passing are the culprits. Easier to have Bruno control his game.
Give this guy another 2 MF and 1 ST. He will work miracle next season.
Out Sabizter - In FDJ
Out Weghorst - In Kane
Out McT - In Bellingham
Out Sabizter - In FDJ
Out Weghorst - In Kane
Out McT - In Bellingham
Messi did high press quite a lot in that prime Barca. Imo he gradually stopped doing that only after Pep left. Probably because once Pep left none was bigger than him at the club or no one would dare to tell him to do what he didn't like to. Or to drop him if he didn't listen.
Neymar also did high press, chase back and the donkey works quite a lot at Barca. Back then only Messi was exempted from the dirty jobs. And imo that's probably one of the reasons why Neymar left for PSG.
Imo the recent image of Messi and Neymar makes it's hard for people to believe both could actually run and press. I happened to watch Barca quite a lot back then because La Liga was free in my country around that period.