I think he's also lucky there's little obvious quality in the managerial market at the minute.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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I can see what he's trying to do when the other team have the ball in their own third. Outside of that though, absolutely no idea.
We have an aggressive 5 man press in the opponents third while our back 2 and holding midfielder sit 50 yards away waiting to get exposed and outnumbered in the counter. It doesnt look like we have any structure at all when the other team have the ball in our half. No one knows who to track, runners are always unmarked, corners and set piece defending rely on Varane or pure luck to clear.
Our full backs overlap but never put crosses in. If Rashford or Garnacho didnt run at defenders the ball would never get inside the penalty area. We recycle the ball endlessly on either flank until that opportunity arises.
Longest run unbeaten is 6 games. Laughable.
We're 5 points above Everton penalty notwithstanding and could potentially be 1 point ahead of Bournemouth and Wolves.
21 games in. Incredible.
21 games in. Incredible.
And yet he hasn't been sacked, and people on here want to give him more time! We're now closer to the bottom than top 4/5.
Even if we don't want to give him more time.
Name one manager who will come right now and make significant difference for the rest of the season. Someone who will be worth it to sack ETH and pay off his compensations?
No point in trying to salvage anything from this season without actual plan moving forward. We've done the same mistake again and again. Why repeat it? It's not like we're going on a losing, relegation spree.
Better to end up with average/bad season and start fresh, than to do the same shit we always do.
Name one manager who will come right now and make significant difference for the rest of the season. Someone who will be worth it to sack ETH and pay off his compensations?
No point in trying to salvage anything from this season without actual plan moving forward. We've done the same mistake again and again. Why repeat it? It's not like we're going on a losing, relegation spree.
Better to end up with average/bad season and start fresh, than to do the same shit we always do.
at this point this topic is just too sad to even go on about some more. Performances are pretty much the same every week. We dont play well overall, moments of nice play but more often than not we are the ones pinned back by the other team. It is clear that regardless of the players the way EtH wants to set up just isnt a way that will work in this league. Personally i am very disappointed as i thought we were getting something else when we brought him in and i was very excited to see us controlling games and getting away from being a counter attacking team like some midtable club that seeks to defend and break occasionally forward.
The goal difference is where we're dead food
This season has no doubt been a disaster but I recalled Arteta having an equally bad season with Arsenal and look where they are now. He may be no Pep, but ETH definitely have a better footballing brain and is a better tactician than Arteta so I would give him a season to start on a clean slate with the new owners. The next transfer window would be massive and make or break for him.
Yep exactly this. There’s clearly “coaching” that’s being implemented, it’s just terrible coaching which is why it’s always been idiotic to excuse our play due to lack of fit players. Because even if we have our first choice XI it doesn’t change the fact that what we are attempting to do tactically is hilariously ineffective.
and if anything i feel like we look the same regardless of who is there, so it clearly shows we are set up how he wants to.
I really just dont get it. Control the midfield and you control the game. Control the game and you can get results more often than not. It is something the most basic "armchair manager" can understand. And yet we set up in this crazy ass one man midfield setup it seems that just gives other teams acres of space to do whatever they want in the midfield.
I am not sure about that. Playing with a one-man midfield does not scream better tactician to me. He also seemingly cannot make good in-game adjustments.
Based on what ?
>“Name one manager who will come right now and make significant difference”
has to be the funniest talking point. Who do you guys think Erik ten Hag is? The way he’s seemingly perceived by many is so inflated
has to be the funniest talking point. Who do you guys think Erik ten Hag is? The way he’s seemingly perceived by many is so inflated
Agreed, I think I am saying the same thing. We have been lightly coached to do some basic, kamikaze moves, but we have no control at all. So players are trying to respond to the inevitable chaos, which makes many worse than they are.
I’d love to know the basis and foundations to which you’ve assess ETH football brain on. Since he’s joined this club, I’ve not seen anything constant in his approach, in-game management, or tactical application to suggest he is better than even most average managers, let alone one who sits near the top of the league and has his team playing pretty good football mostly.
Currently in 4th place and not having won any trophies in the past 3 years? That's one hell of a goal!
No, you dont recall him having an equally bad season, because in both of his first 2 seasons they lost 13 times. We've already lost 9 and it's just past half way.
Better footballing brain and better tactician
what drivel.I love how every ETH stan now tries to compare his tenure with Arteta's while neglecting the facts that a) Arteta has never taken Arsenal backwards and b) Arsenal have won feck all since his first season. We're not aspiring to be like Arsenal, was bad enough when we were aspiring to be like City but at least they win things.
It's been my complaint forever now so much that I'm tired of saying it. Either set up like a modern "top" team with a full team press and overloading the midfield, or play transitionally with physical beasts and elite pace and let's attack teams that way on the break. Instead we play this middle ground nightmare where our most athletic midfielder is an 18 year old forced to play DM by himself while either Eriksen limps around or McTominay does his best statue impression until it's time to box crash and teams play right through us. It's completely illogical how we approach games and quite frankly maddening to watch, because I could at least excuse poor results if I saw a proper vision or logical way in which we were trying to succeed and it just wasn't working out. Spurs being a great example, they've fallen off the pace some results wise since their injury crisis but you still clearly see how they aim to play and overwhelm teams even with reserve players and it makes sense. Yet half of our fanbase here excuses us getting dominated every other game because we don't have every single first choice XI player in place to "play Ten Hag's way" even though it's obvious we aren't going to magically switch up how we approach games.
For real. I remember reading a post on here last week about how sacking ETH could prove to be the biggest mistake the club has done and another how ineos can't sack him now because eth going to another club and doing brilliantly would be too much and it would ruin their reputation, something along those lines. There are apparently people who really think he's a superstar manager and we're lucky to have him. All that based on that one single cup run.
And it was an easy cup run:
4-2 win at home vs Villa
2-0 win at home vs Burnley
3-0 home win vs Charlton
2-0 home win vs Forest
3-0 away win vs Forest
2-0 win vs Newcastle in the final
Emery was only at Villa a week when we played them. They had beaten us 3-1 a few days before it. Both managers rotated a bit. That was the only real test.
ten Hag has gotten a fair bit of luck in terms of cup draws. Nearly every tie has been at home until this season's FA Cup. And even then, we've been drawn away to relegation battling Wigan (League One) and either Eastleigh (National League) or Newport County (League Two).
And it's not like managers can't win trophies while struggling/failing overall. Alex McLeish and Roberto Martínez won domestic cups while getting Bimingham and Wigan relegated. Kenny Dalglish won The League Cup and reached The final of The FA Cup while being an overall disaster at Liverpool during his 2nd stint. Juande Ramos brought Spurs some rare silverware in 2008 while struggling in the league that season. Koeman won The Copa del Rey in 2008 while battling relegation.
Again you just troll.
Answer the question - who is the better manager who can come right now and who'se coming will be worth paying off ETH's contract?
Answer with a fecking name.
Answer the question - who is the better manager who can come right now and who'se coming will be worth paying off ETH's contract?
Answer with a fecking name.
I think he said something about the setup of set piece defending was wrong in the first half on his Dutch interview post match.
I believe he has a veto right, not 'being in charge of transfers'. He doesn't want players forced upon him if they wouldn't fit his style of play, which is probably common for managers? I think people make more of his actual, on paper, influence.
You’re right. How can it be Ten Hag’s fault? Or the coaching staffs fault? Clearly, we have sub par players. We were missing our 5’9” CB and 6’ LB (neither of whom are good in the air) who was on the bench while our backup 6’2” CB and World Cup winning 4 time CL winning 6’3” CB who has won 88% of his aerial duels this season were watching as we gave up 3 free headers in the 6 yard box. Clearly, we were undersized in the midfield and our 6’4” striker wasn’t big enough either. The solution to defending set pieces is to buy the tallest players — everyone knows that!
This Ten Hag cult is ridiculous. We had 37% possession. He was soundly out coached by a manager that came from Celtic by way of the mighty Brisbane Roar, the incomparable Melbourne Victory and the legendary Yokohama F Marinos!
‘Nobody wants to sack him, but at some point, when you can’t score, you can’t defend, you can’t even possess the ball, what else is left? He’s been really poor tactically, with in-game adjustments and prepping the squad. And then there are the results.
Graham Potter, Hansi Flick, Joachim Low, Antonio Conte, Rudi Garcia, Ralf Hassenhuttl, Julen Lopetegui
Caretakers: Giggs, Carrick, Rudd Van Nistlerooy, Laurent Blanc, Steve Mclaren
See, you think Ten Hag is a good manager. I don’t. Also, I doubt that INEOS will keep him if he doesn’t make the CL. So at this point, you should be looking at next season and thinking about your transfer windows.
Julen Lopetegui, treble winner Hansi Flick. There are plenty who are available and competent out there.
But please 'troll' back as to why Ten Hag just needs more time and money.
Does it really matter whether or not they make a significant difference? At the end of the day his contract will still be paid whether it's now or at the end of the year.
Will bringing in a new manager now make a big difference? Maybe, maybe not, but at the very least you'd be trying something different. Such was the case for Tottenham when they dumped Nuno mid-season for Conte, who proceeded to finish top 4.
I wouldn't classify it as a mistake to dump a manager who clearly isn't working, even if a caretaker continues to underperform.
Mind boggling isn't it.
I agree with this but not in the same way. We have kept all previous managers for too long and looks like we're going to do it again. He needs to go now because otherwise he's just hanging round like a dead man walking. He seems to be training them on individual pitches so that won't be missed and most on here can pick the same bloody team he does and when he finally makes a change in game it's usually too late or the wrong one.
Get him the feck away from the club and start building in the direction we want to go without his interference.
He was brought in because we liked his style etc but he's told us he's given up with that and as many have said he's just picking a team every game and hoping for the best which someone else can do while we search or wait for the best candidate. He also falls into the same group as lvg basically "My captain shall always play" but includes or did include Anthony, Rashford and Mctominay.
Depressingly so.
Seriously?...pretty much every other manager in the premier league would do a better job. In fact I would argue we would be no worse off in terms of league position if we didn't even have a ft manager and just let the players get on with it themselves. Recruitment has been woeful, physical conditioning incredibly poor and tactically we are the worst in the league.
Again no one said there is no fault on coaching. Also what is this about tactics? I made a comment specific to the defending in the game. Our defending was also much better last season when we had a settled back line. Its no going to be as good when we have the injuries this does not just apply to United it applies to all the teams in the league.
I have no interest in a conversation about blaming the manager for everything. At the end of the day if the manager gets sacked and a new one comes in fair enough its not really a big deal for me.
What is clear though is that we need a better squad irrespective of any of that we are especially exposed when we have injuries because our squad is unbalanced and lacks quality even in the 11 in some positions let alone the depth. This is an undeniable fact and you should refrain from trying to deny it just because you want to make a case against the manager
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His influence is cleary more than just on paper, he wouldn't have taken the job otherwise. Unless we think it's a complete coincidence that so many of the players he has brought in either played under him or played in Holland.
This man has a huge ego problem. He has done feck all after spending more than anyone and hasn't improved the team in the slightest yet talks like he has transformed us.
Huge ego big problem.
Huge ego big problem.
I don't argue why he needs anything.
I'm looking at the bigger picture. If he continues to utterly fail in this season, sack him in May, but have a good long term option with a plan.
You are suggesting a guy who completely failed at Real Madrid team full of world class and someone who only managed Bayern and Germany (doing very questionable job at the latter).
I think if any of these 2 comes right now, he'll be labeled "another fraud" by April.
Lopetegui won the EL with Sevilla and did above expectations with Wolves, and yes I think he will do better than Ten Hag.
Flick might 'only' have managed Bayern and he won the treble with them - compared to Ten Hag who only have had success with Ajax.
Why wait until he continues to fail more, when we can put both him and us out the this misery now. We are not doing him no favors either as whatever status he had before is diminishing by every match making it harder for him to find a decent job after us.
You're right there is a playing pattern.
However, it's actually what's killing this team and I'm surprised fans and the media have been so blind to the tactics. It's putting our players in impossible situations, yet their getting roasted for lacking quality. Ten Haag's tactics have actually been setting them up for failure this season.
Firstly, it's too fluid. Players are always trying to move into positions that leave them completely vulnerable on the counter. It also leaves them in poor positions to counter attack as well, as players are poorly positioned consistently. This is why there are so many gaps and why the spaces between players can be so wide. It's an issue of fluidity. In fact, our midfield and defence have looked so horrible as a result of fluidity in these zones. Centre backs moving to full back zones when on the ball, full backs moving into centre midfield and noone covering them. It makes it difficult to recover the ball from counterattacking situations when players are positioned that way, because it always leaves us disorganized out of possession. City and Arsenal have far more structure in these zones. Stones still pretty much stays central and plays as an extra DM, whilst the full backs tuck in so that they are still solid at the back. In addition, Pep is much better at employing machination of this manner than ETH, so he can make that work in England. Its not an easy tactic to employ. It may have worked for Ten Haag in a much slower and less physical Eredivisie, but its leaving our defence exposed in England.
Secondly, our current midfield shape is ridiculous. 4141 worked for City because they knew how to properly employ inverted full backs. Zinchenko was essentially a midfielder, as was Delph. They could support Rodri/Fernandinho when required. In addition, they were still more compact and much better at covering positions. City were also playing at a slower pace with keeping the ball being imperative. There were always enough players behind the ball to cover in case of the counter, as they were both compact and deliberate....the exact opposite of what we are.
Thirdly, Our pressing is ridiculous, particularly for the shape of our team. There isn't enough cover to press that highly and not win back the ball. In addition, we don't play as high a line as we should, which leaves the opposition with loads of space to attack us when we don't recover on the initial press.
Fourthly, our shape leaves our DM completely isolated. It also presents a gap between Defence and attack as in possession, the DM is not able to make up the gap in midfield on his own. Out of possession, it leave the DM completely exposed.
Hence we can't progress the ball forward because players aren't in great positions in the build up, our attackers are too far away from our defenders who have the ball and there are too many gaps in the shape, leaving our players constantly surrounded. However, fans will ask " why can't we play well in possession...Bruno". It's not Bruno, it's the tactics.
We have massive gaps due to too much fluidity, being far too wide and having a massive gap between our DM's his midfield partners. Again, this is put on players like Casemiro, when it's actually a tactical flaw. It worked in Holland because Ajax always had the physical and technical advantage to either win the first press or recover. However in England, the levels are far higher and the pace as far more.
We don't create chances because we don't have a sustainable plan of attack. Yes our wingers are selfish, but for our manager to not have a route to Hojlund is ridiculous.
We don't score goals....because we don't create chances. Yet people here talked about Hojlund and how having Kane would change everything. It would not. Ronaldo was the sign of what would happen to Kane. Fans would complain about his lack of pressing and blame him for our inability to gain possession, whilst expecting him to score every chance he gets.
Some of our players have technical flaws, but at the moment we suck because our manager sucks. It's there in the games, but noone wants to call it out because they think the Ajax connection makes Ten Haag much better than he is.
fecking poach Michel from Girona if you have to. Anything that gets rid of the current awful coaching.
I reckon he’ll end up at Palace next season. I only hope we don’t end up with Southgate.
Well said! Excellent!
And it all fits. It explains why Ten Hag was happy with Wout, who couldn't score but run around a lot. It explains why Ronaldo felt disrespected, he was probably asked to become something like what we saw from Wout, which is not really a good idea for Ronaldo. It explains why Ten Hag probably preferred Hojlund to Kane, no matter what he said in public. It explains why we are minus 5 goals right now.
This is a good read and I would subscribe to the ideas. One thing though - I don't know if we really can be sure that the level of fluidity is the problem or if what we are seeing are to some degree teething issues. I mean, at least I didn't expect our team to transition to a more refined way of playing football without some pain coming along with it. What you call fluidity, I named lack of synchronization. And I think, a bit problematic workrate in the wrong areas is also not helping the issue.
So yes, I think your observation of the issue is pretty plausible I just think that some of the adaptation errors are inevitable, no matter who the manager is or would have been. Some of the players we have certain have not the roundest skillsets to perform in the modern system. One question could or should be - are we looking for a guy who maximize the output of the current crop of players or are we better off updating the way we play and change some of the players?
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