ETH does not have to win the Europa League this season

[berbatrick]

Meh.
I'm a little worried about the big games since the week with Barcelona/Newcastle in the cup final: 7-0 and that awful 2-0 at Newcastle.

I want to see good performances vs Brighton in the cup and league, potentially city in the cup, Chelsea in the league, and Sevilla. Whether or not it results in a trophy, a few wins in these would show that the earlier wins against City, Barca, Liverpool, arsenal, weren't flukes or random good form.

 

[LInkash]

All two of them?

I am very much optimistic about the direction we're headed in but to put on the worse case pessimistic hat and out of curiosity, I just looked back at the results for Ole's final season and there were not actually even as bad as I remembered

Our worst results were:

Watford 4-1
Liverpool 0-5.
Leicester 4-2

Which are probably better than our worst results this season.

Brentford 4-0
City 6-3
Liverpool 7-0

 

[Charles Ufarley]

What a load of cobblers

I think that's the Northampton football team.

 

[CloneMC16]

I'd say his first failure was losing 0-7 to Liverpool.

Being favourites is all well and good, but it's not taking into account the amount of minutes these players have played this season.

 

[Offside]

Would rather win the FA Cup 1000%. Unless we end up outside the top 4 of course.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Thanks for jinxing the Sevilla game

 

[Siorac]

Would rather win the FA Cup 1000%. Unless we end up outside the top 4 of course.

That's odd to me. The EL is a European trophy that grants you top seed status in the Champions League. We'd have to beat big, prestigious clubs from the continent to lift the trophy. It's much more exciting than the FA Cup.

 

[Offside]

That's odd to me. The EL is a European trophy that grants you top seed status in the Champions League. We'd have to beat big, prestigious clubs from the continent to lift the trophy. It's much more exciting than the FA Cup.

Nah it’s a second rate competition even if it is Europe wide. The FA Cup is the best cup in the world and we’d have to beat the likes of City to win it.

 

[golden_blunder]

Maybe it’s outdated thinking but I’ve thought that the FA cup is the one for me. I love the romantic side of football rather than the corporate side

 

[ti vu]

I am very much optimistic about the direction we're headed in but to put on the worse case pessimistic hat and out of curiosity, I just looked back at the results for Ole's final season and there were not actually even as bad as I remembered

Our worst results were:

Watford 4-1
Liverpool 0-5.
Leicester 4-2

Which are probably better than our worst results this season.

Brentford 4-0
City 6-3
Liverpool 7-0

The issue is last season, the result came in quick succession. The result against City last season after the Liverpool game looks kind, yet City was toying with us the whole game. Remember the Liverpool and City games in question were at home. Dumped out of League Cup at home to West Ham. Getting out of CL group was hung on a string too until Carrick took over and the important win away to Villarreal).

 

[Andycoleno9]

Jose vs Erik in final. It is all set for it. With Erik winning 2:0.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Maybe it’s outdated thinking but I’ve thought that the FA cup is the one for me. I love the romantic side of football rather than the corporate side

Same.

And, yeah, it's clearly outdated in many ways - but I don't care, I'm outdated myself.

I want us to win the FA Cup. I want us to get one closer to overtake Arsenal. It positively bothers me that Arsenal have more FA Cups than United.

I have said this many times, but I will gladly say it again: the EL is a Mickey Mouse trophy that means nothing in and of itself to a club like Manchester United.

Yes, it can be potentially significant as a means to secure CL football (and it may very well turn out to be just that this season - as it was not too long for us), but the trophy itself is obviously a Mickey Mouse one (again: for a club like Manchester United).

 

[Kag]

The FA Cup pisses all over the Europa.

 

[top1whoisman]

Same.

And, yeah, it's clearly outdated in many ways - but I don't care, I'm outdated myself.

I want us to win the FA Cup. I want us to get one closer to overtake Arsenal. It positively bothers me that Arsenal have more FA Cups than United.

I have said this many times, but I will gladly say it again: the EL is a Mickey Mouse trophy that means nothing in and of itself to a club like Manchester United.

Yes, it can be potentially significant as a means to secure CL football (and it may very well turn out to be just that this season - as it was not too long for us), but the trophy itself is obviously a Mickey Mouse one (again: for a club like Manchester United).

Out of interest, would you say winning the 1991 Cup Winners’ Cup meant nothing in and of itself to a club like Manchester United?

 

[Siorac]

Nah it’s a second rate competition even if it is Europe wide. The FA Cup is the best cup in the world and we’d have to beat the likes of City to win it.

Which is exactly my issue with the domestic cups. 'Yay, another game against teams we play twice a year anyway' - eh.

I do realise that nowadays we only play La Liga teams in Europe which slightly undermines my argument but still.

 

[golden_blunder]

Out of interest, would you say winning the 1991 Cup Winners’ Cup meant nothing in and of itself to a club like Manchester United?

At the time it was important because it built up a head of steam

 

[top1whoisman]

At the time it was important because it built up a head of steam

And why are we now above the need for that after the whole post SAF era?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Out of interest, would you say winning the 1991 Cup Winners’ Cup meant nothing in and of itself to a club like Manchester United?

Good question.

No, I would not.

Why?

Because the nature/structure of the old UEFA tournaments (the Cup Winner's and the UEFA Cup) is incomparable to the present EL (which is supposed to be a "continuation" of those tournaments, but it obviously isn't in any meaningful sense).

The old Cup Winner's Cup was a major trophy. The old UEFA Cup was a major trophy.

The EL is not.

I mean, come on - this should be obvious.

ETA Sorry, it may not be obvious. And I don't mean to be a dick about this. But - yeah - it is obvious in the sense that the old European Cup only featured league winners (and defending champions).

 

[top1whoisman]

Good question.

No, I would not.

Why?

Because the nature/structure of the old UEFA tournaments (the Cup Winner's and the UEFA Cup) is incomparable to the present EL (which is supposed to be a "continuation" of those tournaments, but it obviously isn't in any meaningful sense).

The old Cup Winner's Cup was a major trophy. The old UEFA Cup was a major trophy.

The EL is not.

I mean, come on - this should be obvious.

Okay, I apologise for not knowing the obvious universal fact that the current version of UEFA Cup is a Mickey Mouse trophy whereas the original version wasn't. Now I'm truly with you and hope from the bottom of my heart that we don't waste any energy in trying to win that meaningless silverware. Play the kids on Thursday.

 

[GMoore23]

I think we'll win the Europa if we get past Sevilla. I know we beat Barca but our record against Spanish sides isn't great overall in recent times.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Okay, I apologise for not knowing the obvious universal fact that the current version of UEFA Cup is a Mickey Mouse trophy whereas the original version wasn't. Now I'm truly with you and hope from the bottom of my heart that we don't waste any energy in trying to win that meaningless silverware. Play the kids on Thursday.

No need to apologize, but the very fact that you call it "the current version of the UEFA Cup" is pretty much the problem right there: The EL is not comparable to the old UEFA Cup. It is only a continuation of that tournament on paper.

 

[top1whoisman]

No need to apologize, but the very fact that you call it "the current version of the UEFA Cup" is pretty much the problem right there: The EL is not comparable to the old UEFA Cup. It is only a continuation of that tournament on paper.

So is the Premier League. Do you value the old Division 1 titles over PL?

 

[Rojofiam]

I'd say his first failure was losing 0-7 to Liverpool.

Being favourites is all well and good, but it's not taking into account the amount of minutes these players have played this season.

What can ten Hag do about conceding 7 goals from an xG of 2.91? Enter the pitch and stop the goals himself?

"First failure"

 

[Chesterlestreet]

So is the Premier League. Do you value the old Division 1 titles over PL?

No, of course not.

It's not comparable, though, is it?

Surely you can see that the nature/structure of the competitions/tournaments in question is completely different?

If nothing had changed - if the CL had never been invented - how many seasons over the, say, last decade would Real Madrid have played in the UEFA Cup?

 

[top1whoisman]

No, of course not.

It's not comparable, though, is it?

Surely you can see that the nature/structure of the competitions/tournaments in question is completely different?

If nothing had changed - if the CL had never been invented - how many seasons over the, say, last decade would Real Madrid have played in the UEFA Cup?

That is a fair point that nowadays the four best teams from each major league get to the CL. Then again a lot of good teams fall back to EL form the CL group stages.

And structure of the current CL is also as much different to the original European Cup as the EL is to Uefa Cup. Why is that different?

However I don't know exactly how getting to the Cup Winners' Cup final after beating Pécsi Mecsek, Wrexham, Montpellier and Legia Warszawa over two legs is more prestigious than beating Barcelona, Betis, Sevilla and say Juventus to get to the Europa League final? Why is the old CWC a major trophy whereas Europa League is a Mickey Mouse trophy?

 

[Rojofiam]

Okay, I apologise for not knowing the obvious universal fact that the current version of UEFA Cup is a Mickey Mouse trophy whereas the original version wasn't. Now I'm truly with you and hope from the bottom of my heart that we don't waste any energy in trying to win that meaningless silverware. Play the kids on Thursday.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Why is the old CWC a major trophy whereas Europa League is a Mickey Mouse trophy?

Well, the old CWC was considered a major trophy. You could - of course - question the (consistent) nature of the opposition from round to round (there was a lot of shite there, same as there undoubtedly was for the EC itself), but there were also usually genuinely top teams involved.

The point is that the EL is second-rate by default, by definition, it just screams second-rate.

Has there been a case ever in the history of the EL where its winner was anywhere close to being (by common consensus) anywhere near the best team in Europe?

Ask the same question for the old UEFA/CWC Cups.

 

[top1whoisman]

Well, the old CWC was considered a major trophy. You could - of course - question the (consistent) nature of the opposition from round to round (there was a lot of shite there, same as there undoubtedly was for the EC itself), but there were also usually genuinely top teams involved.

The point is that the EL is second-rate by default, by definition, it just screams second-rate.

Has there been a case ever in the history of the EL where its winner was anywhere close to being (by common consensus) anywhere near the best team in Europe?

Ask the same question for the old UEFA/CWC Cups.

I'd say back then the European Cup was first-rate, the UEFA Cup second-rate and the CWC third-rate as much as today CL 1st & EL 2nd.

 

[antohan]

So is the Premier League. Do you value the old Division 1 titles over PL?

Under the old format we wouldn't have even qualified to the UEFA Cup, which instead would have been competed over by Liverpool, Napoli, Rangers, Atlético, Leverkusen, Barcelona, Inter, Frankfurt, Tottenham, Sporting, Marseille, Chelsea, Leipzig, Sevilla, Dortmund, Juventus and Benfica.

Instead, those now start in the CL and only drop into the "new UEFA" if they are third in their group (i.e. rules out the very strong teams that just about got pipped to a title and used to end up in UEFA but now can go far in CL).

It's a completely different level that the UEFA Cup was at vs Europa.

Edit: putting it differently, how many times have we had same country CL finals, or 2-3 from one league making the semis? In the past, those extra ones would have been in the UEFA Cup and likely winning it in style, not haphazardly like some of the Europa winners do.

 

[CloneMC16]

What can ten Hag do about conceding 7 goals from an xG of 2.91? Enter the pitch and stop the goals himself?

"First failure"

We lost 0-7 to Liverpool. It ties as one of the worst results in United's history. Liverpool were very clinical, but we wide open. Even when we were getting thrashed. ETH sets the team up and is partly responsible when things go badly.

ETH has done well this season, but that was an absolutely shocking result.

 

[top1whoisman]

Under the old format we wouldn't have even qualified to the UEFA Cup, which instead would have been competed over by Liverpool, Napoli, Rangers, Atlético, Leverkusen, Barcelona, Inter, Frankfurt, Tottenham, Sporting, Marseille, Chelsea, Leipzig, Sevilla, Dortmund, Juventus and Benfica.

Instead, those now start in the CL and only drop into the "new UEFA" if they are third in their group (i.e. rules out the very strong teams that just about got pipped to a title and used to end up in UEFA but now can go far in CL).

It's a completely different level that the UEFA Cup was at vs Europa.

Ajax, Barca & Juve dropped down among others this season. I'd say they are pretty strong. Also there's been plenty of not that strong teams in UEFA Cup semis for example. Cagliari, Karlsruhe, Austria Salzburg, Tenerife, Schalke, Slavia Praha, Bordeaux, Spartak Moskva, Bologna, Leeds, Lens, Galatasaray, Alavés, Kaiserslautern and Boavista all got to the semis in the last 10 years of the old competition format.

 

[Rojofiam]

We lost 0-7 to Liverpool. It ties as one of the worst results in United's history. Liverpool were very clinical, but we wide open. Even when we were getting thrashed. ETH sets the team up and is partly responsible when things go badly.

ETH has done well this season, but that was an absolutely shocking result.

The team he set up conceded 2.91 xG. Had we lost 3-1 no one would ever say that it was "his first failure".

 

[golden_blunder]

And why are we now above the need for that after the whole post SAF era?

Im not saying I wouldn’t im just saying I prefer the FA cup. I was brought up on those full day events

 

[CloneMC16]

The team he set up conceded 2.91 xG. Had we lost 3-1 no one would ever say that it was "his first failure".

You can't lose as badly as we did and not consider it a failure. It is one of the worst results in the clubs history.

If we had lost 3-1, it wouldn't be one of the worst results in the clubs history, so yes. It wouldn't be considered his first failure.

 

[top1whoisman]

Im not saying I wouldn’t im just saying I prefer the FA cup. I was brought up on those full day events

That’s fair enough. Beating City in the FA Cup final would probably be my choice over the EL, but I just don’t understand the arrogance of calling (you’re not doing it to be accurate) it a Mickey Mouse trophy.

One would think all these trophyless years would’ve made us more humble as a fanbase. I’d never consider any trophy being beneath us.

 

[Rojofiam]

You can't lose as badly as we did and not consider it a failure. It is one of the worst results in the clubs history.

If we had lost 3-1, it wouldn't be one of the worst results in the clubs history, so yes. It wouldn't be considered his first failure.

You don't understand my point. Or you just don't want to.

 

[wolvored]

or it will be his first failure as manager for us.

The current title odds are: Man Utd 2.5, Juventus 6.5, Roma 6.5, Leverkusen 9.5, Sporting 11, Sevilla 13, Feyenoord 15, Royal Union 31

Yes betting odds aren't really directly predictive of team quality but we are clear favorites and fully healthy the best team left.

The rewards of winning this competition are also greater than anything else we can achieve this season. We would get the first seed in the Cl groups and a chance at the Supercup. If you had to pick between top four and the Europa only a fool would pick top 4. The FA cup is tricky because it has been longer since we've won it last and I'd love for us to win it but the Europa is the objectively better prize.

On your logic his first failure has already happened; the Premier league.

 

[antohan]

Ajax, Barca & Juve dropped down among others this season. I'd say they are pretty strong.

That's three out of my entire list. Half the CL quarter finalists from this season would have been in the old UEFA Cup instead (Napoli, Inter, Benfica and Chelsea).

Also there's been plenty of not that strong teams in UEFA Cup semis for example. Cagliari, Karlsruhe, Austria Salzburg, Tenerife, Schalke, Slavia Praha, Bordeaux, Spartak Moskva, Bologna, Leeds, Lens, Galatasaray, Alavés, Kaiserslautern and Boavista all got to the semis in the last 10 years of the old competition format.

I think you are looking at the UEFA Cup before its rebranding, not "the old UEFA Cup", i.e. pre-CL admitting non league winners from 1997, let alone four teams from 1999.

The likes of Real Madrid and very strong Inter, Juventus and Parma sides (at the height of Serie A) won that. When was the last time Real graced the Europa? Exactly, they never have. It's an also rans competition, none of the teams qualifying come even close to challenging for their domestic title.

 

[DRJosh]

Maybe it’s outdated thinking but I’ve thought that the FA cup is the one for me. I love the romantic side of football rather than the corporate side

Interesting and I see where you’re coming from. Would you say the same if we were contesting for the Champion’s league?

 

[Jippy]

You don't understand my point. Or you just don't want to.

It's a spurious point though, in that how many people really consoled themselves that the 7-0 defeat to Liverpool was only a 2.91xG loss? It reeks of people becoming fixated with statistics to the point they ignore actual events.