Ethics of employment

GloryHunter07

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do you find yourself better motivated than when woking in previous industries?
Yes but that isn't just down to the company, i have a good boss and co-workers. I hated my last company.

Edit: i do think (from my experience) that charities attract a different kind of personality, which can be both positive & negative.
 
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duffer

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Probably not a tobacco company (I don't smoke and think it's horrible), certainly not an arms firm (I don't kill people and think it's horrible).

The rest, sure. I've sold booze and junk food in the past and have zero ethical issues with it.
 

JustAFan

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I recently moved work to a large national charity/not for profit. It helps with the "why the hell am I doing this?" moments.

I dont think i would have problems with alcohol or tobacco. An arms manufacturer would make me a bit squeamish but I'd probably go for it if the money & role was attractive.
I also started back in Feb at a not for profit that helps troubled youth, it does give you a different view. Worked for a large corporation before that, had some dark spots in its history as most large corporations will, it took advantage of 9-11 to announce layoffs 10 days after it happened and blamed it all on the expected downturn in the economy that 9-11 was supposed to cause (surprised I did not get laid off then because I made no bones about calling my management team out on the obvious bull shit, they had the downsizing planned and where just hiding behind 9-11 to make it look like it was beyond their control).

Depending on what my job was I would work with tobacco, booze, arms manufacturing companies as long as the pay was good.
 

Bury Red

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My cousin wrote software for missile guidance systems around 20 years ago. I asked him once about how he felt (he was a quiet and soft-spoken guy who was a pacifist like me), he told me that he only thought about his specific job and never thought about the end usage.
My best mate from school days went into programming and his firm picked up a missile guidance contract around 20 years ago, he refused to work on that contract and the company was fine with it moving him onto other non-military projects.

Conversely, would you work for Nike or Apple, who have repeatedly avoided to look at child labour and manipulative working conditions in all their offshore manufacturing facilities? Or would you have any problem working for Chick-fil-A with their anti gay stance? You look for ethical reasons to work for employers and it's a slippery slope.
Areas like child labour, poor pay and working conditions and lower health and safety standards and environmental concerns in other countries are a minefield but it is up to everyone to try to hold companies responsible for their actions and it's easier to do that from within rather than standing on the sidelines protesting. Unfortunately once companies go global they do tend to seek the lowest cost base for new manufacturing facilities or to claim they have to work to local standards in order top win work and it's very easy from the swish head office in London or Paris to focus on the bottom line and gloss over ethical issues by making blanket corporate policy statements denouncing corruption, exploitation and danger in the workplace. I've worked for a couple of huge civil engineering multinationals and had to make judgement calls on many of these issues on a regular basis to ensure work progressed but that the company was not exposed to undue risk and that both my and the companies ethics were comfortable, in the Philippines or India the odd brown envelope being passed over by a local member of staff was sadly the norm on most major projects and so long as it wasn't a huge amount and it was being done to keep a project moving rather than as a bribe to procure work then you would generally turn a blind eye, we also had to cut almost half our staff in one office thanks to a corrupt culture that had committed large scale fraud and in one instance had to strike off one of our principal suppliers when it became apparent that he thought offering the services of prostitutes was an acceptable way of solving problems.

Health and safety was always a battle as accidents can happen but nobody should be putting their life at risk for a day's pay however in some cultures cutting corners and taking risks I would consider unacceptable are the norm. Even when accepting no compromise on safety with the backing of our head office we still suffered fatalities on 4 sites including one where 59 people died, thankfully none of them were my direct sites but the effect within the company was always immense. In many instances we'd have to sneak onto our own sites to try to root out any safety breaches, bad practices or even child labour to prevent things being covered up when they knew we were due to visit, we still knew that bad practices would go on behind our backs though and all we could do was deal with the managers involved after the fact.

I've worked on military projects where our work was purely to protect troops and civilians and worked on roads, power stations, ports and oil projects that some would see as potentially environmentally harmful but I'm happy that at least if I'm doing it I know the best standards will be followed and harm minimised. The only areas where I'd personally draw a line and refuse to work would be on military offense projects or on projects where I consider the environmental hazards and long term effect outweigh any benefits like fracking, open cast mining etc.
 

MTF

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One point you are correct about is that alcohol consumed in moderation has no proven negative health effects. The problem is that is very difficult to moderate drinking because its so enjoyable and can be addictive. Binge drinking and the negative effects of drunkenness are more prevalent and damaging to global society than ever before.

I remember seeing a quantitative research report in 2005, a few years after the BRIC nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China) started to enjoy rapid economic growth. As millions of people in BRIC nations emigrated from rural villages to urban cities, they swapped outdoor physical agricultural jobs to indoor sedate office jobs. Very quickly 'stress' became one of the top medical complaints. And that was a key societal trigger for Diageo to invest heavily into those markets as 'after work drinking' is a key occasion to introduce people to alcohol. 10 years later, these countries have their alcoholism rates in their history and the societal problems that go along with that.

Does that conversation get airtime within your day to day interactions with the alcohol industry?
I don't think you need Diageo to make 'Russia' and 'drinking' go together. :p

Brazil is the only other one I can speak of, and its as much a simple income effect as anything else. Middle/upper class Brazilians have always drank their share of liquor, but the lower class would drink more beer or local cachaça. As more people moved into the middle class in the 2000s I wouldn't say that drinking more liquor was an outsized behaviour, since consumer habits of the new middle class mostly just mirrored what the established middle class already did. From drinking, to food, to entertainment, to consumer goods, etc. Its been a great opportunity for many companies, but I wouldn't say they were the catalysts of their own fortunes in this instance.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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No qualms. I'd work most places that pays me well.

Nobody's forcing anyone to buy the products or use them. If most boycott it, then they'll go out of business on their own.

Edit: I'd refuse to work in a mass animal farming industry to think of it, despite the above.
 

sammsky1

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Areas like child labour, poor pay and working conditions and lower health and safety standards and environmental concerns in other countries are a minefield but it is up to everyone to try to hold companies responsible for their actions and it's easier to do that from within rather than standing on the sidelines protesting. Unfortunately once companies go global they do tend to seek the lowest cost base for new manufacturing facilities or to claim they have to work to local standards in order top win work and it's very easy from the swish head office in London or Paris to focus on the bottom line and gloss over ethical issues by making blanket corporate policy statements denouncing corruption, exploitation and danger in the workplace.

I've worked for a couple of huge civil engineering multinationals and had to make judgement calls on many of these issues on a regular basis to ensure work progressed but that the company was not exposed to undue risk and that both my and the companies ethics were comfortable, in the Philippines or India the odd brown envelope being passed over by a local member of staff was sadly the norm on most major projects and so long as it wasn't a huge amount and it was being done to keep a project moving rather than as a bribe to procure work then you would generally turn a blind eye, we also had to cut almost half our staff in one office thanks to a corrupt culture that had committed large scale fraud and in one instance had to strike off one of our principal suppliers when it became apparent that he thought offering the services of prostitutes was an acceptable way of solving problems.
How did that actually work within a multinational company?

Did you pay the money out of your own pocket and claim back as expenses? If it was expenses, how this was booked in accountancy and how does it get through external audits?
 
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I wouldn't want to work for any of them. I'm lucky enough to have ample job opportunities in different fields though, so it's easy for me to say. In a tough job market, I wouldn't judge someone for working at a place like that, and I'd do it myself if it was the only way to provide for my family.

But to answer the original question - no, I wouldn't change jobs even if they doubled my salary and gave me lots of perks. I'm happy with what I do; it's meaningful (at least to me), gives me a chance to grow, and it's pretty flexible which makes it possible for me to pursue other interests outside of work.
 
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Bury Red

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How did that actually work within a multinational company?

Did you pay the money out of your own pocket and claim back as expenses? If it was expenses, how this was booked in accountancy and how does it get through external audits?
I wasn't looking, how would I know? ;)

Seriously though, when bidding on large civil contracts there are always fairly large sundries and entertainment budgets built into the project management fees. They're supposedly there to cover minor items overlooked in the bill of quantities whilst the entertainment budget would cover various items like religious ceremonies and blessings that were needed at various stages of projects in Asia, especially after an accident but also for topping out, contract milestones like multiples of a million man hours worked with no reportible incidents etc. The few brown bags I saw were small enough that they'd have been written off in part of that budget. What worried me with them though was it was often people like the design checkers (with other big multinational consultancies) who would hold you to ransom refusing to sign off on a perfectly functional design unless they were paid. I was always satisfied that my design was good and had usually wasted half a day of their and my time explaining it to the 10th decimal place before twigging what was going on but I did wonder how many shoddy designs got approved by these same clowns especially as the country in question has a structural failure rate 10 times the norm elsewhere.
 

berbatrick

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I don't really like US foreign policy but as a grad student I'm being funded by the US govt. Actually, if I chose a different lab I might have been funded by the Dept of Defence :lol: (the research itself is on yeast, but I'm sure it can have combat implications in the long term).
I know a lot of vegans online who work in McDonalds, and at least 1 who works in the post-kill part of an industrial slaughterhouse (he moved there from the kill floor after turning vegan)

If there were options I wouldn't work in a place whose ethics I don't agree with (and maybe I should have tried to join a European university instead?) but I wouldn't blame a person who is working somewhere out of necessity.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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How did that actually work within a multinational company?

Did you pay the money out of your own pocket and claim back as expenses? If it was expenses, how this was booked in accountancy and how does it get through external audits?
Gets broken down into client entertainment expenses or something not really traceable like that. Not like getting a fake receipt is that hard in those places. Anyways most companies big or small have small slush funds process to get these done. It's a existing hidden reality, not really a novel/new thing. Cost of doing business, to put it bluntly.
 

SwansonsTache

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I would work for Satan himself if the pay and perks were good enough.
 

caid

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I guess ... i dunno. It depends what i personally am doing.
I have no problem serving people a mcdonalds burger
Acting as a hired mercenary or a lobbyist is a very different proposition.

i'd have a hard time justifying working for an arms manufacturer in any capacity
any other industry and id at least consider it.
 

Bury Red

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Gets broken down into client entertainment expenses or something not really traceable like that. Not like getting a fake receipt is that hard in those places. Anyways most companies big or small have small slush funds process to get these done. It's a existing hidden reality, not really a novel/new thing. Cost of doing business, to put it bluntly.
The big bosses back in corporate head office don't like to hear it though when they have you sign all the anti-graft policies, I love to remind them how removed they are from the real world at times just to see the shock on their faces. It's fine typing up anti corruption and exploitation policies and health, safety and environmental statements from head office and insisting all staff have to sign them and are aware of the risk of instant dismissal for breach when you're sat in an office and never set foot on a real site.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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The big bosses back in corporate head office don't like to hear it though when they have you sign all the anti-graft policies, I love to remind them how removed they are from the real world at times just to see the shock on their faces. It's fine typing up anti corruption and exploitation policies and health, safety and environmental statements from head office and insisting all staff have to sign them and are aware of the risk of instant dismissal for breach when you're sat in an office and never set foot on a real site.
Tbh, I don't think any boss is really that removed. Most don't get to that level without knowing the clean and dirty side of business. The applicable term is 'plausible deniability'. As long as one pretends and acts surprised, they can get away with it. Everyone involved does this knowing the consequence of getting caught will be to get thrown under the bus....but still does as it is simply how business is done in many areas of the world.
 

Kraftwerker

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One point you are correct about is that alcohol consumed in moderation has no proven negative health effects. The problem is that is very difficult to moderate drinking because its so enjoyable and can be addictive. Binge drinking and the negative effects of drunkenness are more prevalent and damaging to global society than ever before.

I remember seeing a quantitative research report in 2005, a few years after the BRIC nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China) started to enjoy rapid economic growth. As millions of people in BRIC nations emigrated from rural villages to urban cities, they swapped outdoor physical agricultural jobs to indoor sedate office jobs. Very quickly 'stress' became one of the top medical complaints. And that was a key societal trigger for Diageo to invest heavily into those markets as 'after work drinking' is a key occasion to introduce people to alcohol. 10 years later, these countries have their alcoholism rates in their history and the societal problems that go along with that.

Does that conversation get airtime within your day to day interactions with the alcohol industry?
I strongly doubt Diageo's policy was to create a nation of alcoholics who use alcohol to cope with stress.

Just like a food manufacturer wouldn't go into those territories with the ambition of creating a nation of obese people.

It's an unfortunate by-product of having alcohol (or high calorie foods) in those nations.

The conversation around responsible marketing is front and centre in everything they do. They're probably the most responsible drinks manufacturer out there actually.
 

Bury Red

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Tbh, I don't think any boss is really that removed. Most don't get to that level without knowing the clean and dirty side of business. The applicable term is 'plausible deniability'. As long as one pretends and acts surprised, they can get away with it. Everyone involved does this knowing the consequence of getting caught will be to get thrown under the bus....but still does as it is simply how business is done in many areas of the world.
You're probably right with the bosses on the construction side in my industry but the policies tend to be written by a new breed of plug and play HR, HSE or finance director who often have no connection to the industry in question or clue of what the company actually does to pay their salary. My latest clash with one of this breed was our IT security director who issued a policy forbidding staff to use any external file transfer service like dropbox or wetransfer, I tried to explain how our customers send us 100s of Mb of drawings and site reports and without them we could do no business but he couldn't get his head around it and still seems more concerned about any of us communicating with the outside world simply because someone in head office wire transferred a few grand to a Nigerian 401 scammer in a whaling attack last year.
 

Brwned

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The Principles of the MRS Code of Conduct:

1. Researchers shall ensure that participation in their activities is based on voluntary informed consent.
2. Researchers shall be straightforward and honest in all their professional and business relationships.
3. Researchers shall be transparent as to the subject and purpose of data collection.
4. Researchers shall respect the confidentiality of information collected in their professional activities.
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I suppose you only fall down on about half of 'em. Who cares about professional ethics anyway?
 

sammsky1

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Gets broken down into client entertainment expenses or something not really traceable like that. Not like getting a fake receipt is that hard in those places. Anyways most companies big or small have small slush funds process to get these done. It's a existing hidden reality, not really a novel/new thing. Cost of doing business, to put it bluntly.
Ive worked in FTSE blue chip's all my life, where these sorts of things are supposedly sackable offences. So Im intrigued as to how it actually happens?

If its 'client entertainment', then presumably you have to take it out from your own bank account and hope your boss signs off the expense. But then that would be quite a low 'brown envelope' as most people won't have many $1000's in there account!

Likewise, if its taken out of the company cash slush fund, how do you ask for $10,000 or more? Surely bribes any smaller are simply not worth the time or the risk for anyone.
 
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sammsky1

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I wasn't looking, how would I know? ;)

Seriously though, when bidding on large civil contracts there are always fairly large sundries and entertainment budgets built into the project management fees. They're supposedly there to cover minor items overlooked in the bill of quantities whilst the entertainment budget would cover various items like religious ceremonies and blessings that were needed at various stages of projects in Asia, especially after an accident but also for topping out, contract milestones like multiples of a million man hours worked with no reportible incidents etc. The few brown bags I saw were small enough that they'd have been written off in part of that budget. What worried me with them though was it was often people like the design checkers (with other big multinational consultancies) who would hold you to ransom refusing to sign off on a perfectly functional design unless they were paid. I was always satisfied that my design was good and had usually wasted half a day of their and my time explaining it to the 10th decimal place before twigging what was going on but I did wonder how many shoddy designs got approved by these same clowns especially as the country in question has a structural failure rate 10 times the norm elsewhere.
Very interesting. Like you, Ive worked in corporate Asia for many years and there are many of these 'spiritual events' that require money. But you still never answered my question: How do you get the actual 'brown envelope cash' into your hands, and how do you reclaim that from the firm?
 

Bury Red

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Very interesting. Like you, Ive worked in corporate Asia for many years and there are many of these 'spiritual events' that require money. But you still never answered my question: How do you get the actual 'brown envelope cash' into your hands, and how do you reclaim that from the firm?
I never touched it, it was usually a driver that handed it over to their driver or secretary with the demands usually being filtered through the sales and marketing manager who had secured the subcontract. I'm pretty sure the git used to send me to answer their "design queries" that were holding up the whole project with the driver instructed to make the payments just within my eyeline so they could throw me under the bus if anything ever came of it. I found it quite amusing as everything dodgy I saw was noted and reported to head office as I'd been put into that office since we already suspected things were far more rotten than a few brown envelopes, to the tune of US$20M as it eventually turned out.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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but the policies tend to be written by a new breed of plug and play HR, HSE or finance director who often have no connection to the industry in question or clue of what the company actually does to pay their salary
Even if a person who knows how thing work writes the laws, it still would not be acknowledged far less accepted in public. So be it, a project head or HR the laws would still be holier than thou and practice continues underneath.

Being on client side, I have repeated trainings and refresher sessions on influencing, bribery (giving/accepting), favouritism, insider information, chinese walls etc...but that's more for employee who finds himself in such unfamiliar situation for the first time.

If its 'client entertainment', then presumably you have to take it out from your own bank account and hope your boss signs off the expense. But then that would be quite a low 'brown envelope' as most people won't have many $1000's in there account!

Likewise, if its taken out of the company cash slush fund, how do you ask for $10,000 or more? Surely bribes any smaller are simply not worth the time or the risk for anyone.
I have a corporate credit card, which technically has no limits, though we have internal policies which govern the expenses.

Also the mode varies on industry. Seeing that most banks have low ceiling for cash deposits/transactions, I doubt any significant amount is actually traded in brown envelopes. It's quite easy to overcharge (fake) an invoice and provide a fake receipt which gets authorized and paid through regular accounting. Or you can create a loan/credit to supplier facility etc...which gets written off subsequently. Consultant's fee is another prominent mode. You employ the person as advisor/consultant for some other project not directly related to offer at hand. Or simply it can be broken down to multiple smaller size client entertainment expenses. Creative accounting is nothing new and has always been in play for ages and will continue to be so too.
 

Isotope

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Although I've enjoyed their product, I don't think I can work in porn industry/company. Most likely because of the attached negative connotation it will bring to my social life.

For working on companies stated in OP, I'd take it if they would triple my current salary.
 

sammsky1

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Also the mode varies on industry. Seeing that most banks have low ceiling for cash deposits/transactions, I doubt any significant amount is actually traded in brown envelopes. It's quite easy to overcharge (fake) an invoice and provide a fake receipt which gets authorized and paid through regular accounting. Or you can create a loan/credit to supplier facility etc...which gets written off subsequently. Consultant's fee is another prominent mode. You employ the person as advisor/consultant for some other project not directly related to offer at hand. Or simply it can be broken down to multiple smaller size client entertainment expenses. Creative accounting is nothing new and has always been in play for ages and will continue to be so too.

The Platini/Blatter manoeuvre.
 
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sammsky1

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Although I've enjoyed their product, I don't think I can work in porn industry/company. Most likely because of the attached negative connotation it will bring to my social life.

For working on companies stated in OP, I'd take it if they would triple my current salary.
Hmm. Should have included that into the OP!

it used to be a global $80 billion industry.
 
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