European Colonial Superpowers - Germany recognises Namibia genocide

[The Corinthian]

Germany officially recognises colonial-era Namibia genocide

Germany has officially acknowledged that it committed genocide during its colonial-era occupation of Namibia and announced a financial support gesture.
German colonisers killed tens of thousands of Herero and Nama people there in early 20th Century massacres.
Foreign Minister Heiko Maas on Friday acknowledged the killings as genocide.
"In light of Germany's historical and moral responsibility, we will ask Namibia and the descendants of the victims for forgiveness," he said.
Mr Maas added that Germany would, in a "gesture to recognise the immense suffering inflicted on the victims", support the country's development through a programme worth more than €1.1bn (£940m; $1.34bn).
The agreement will reportedly see funding paid over 30 years through spending on infrastructure, healthcare and training programmes benefiting the impacted communities.
A spokesman for the Namibian government told the AFP news agency that Germany's recognition was "a first step in the right direction".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57279008

I thought this was quite interesting. Do you think we'll start seeing other European superpowers begin to take account of their colonial activities in Africa (or elsewhere)? Also encouraging to see them committing €1.1bn to building up Namibia's infrastructure and economy.

I know Belgium (specifically King Leopold) committed some atrocities in the Congo for example. Could there be a movement to get them to recognise this (not picking on Belgium btw, but they came to my mind first)?

 

[coolredwine]

France acknowledged their role in Rwanda too.

 

[Adisa]

Has Belgium recognised theirs in Congo?

 

[The Corinthian]

France acknowledged their role in Rwanda too.

You're quite right - don't know how I missed this, although a little different to the above.

Macron asks Rwanda to forgive France over 1994 genocide role

French President Emmanuel Macron has asked Rwandans to forgive France for its role in the 1994 Rwandan genocide in which about 800,000 ethnic Tutsis and moderate Hutus died.

Speaking at the genocide memorial in Rwanda's capital Kigali, he said France had not heeded warnings of impending carnage and had for too long "valued silence over examination of the truth".
But France had not been an accomplice in the killings, Mr Macron added.
Rwanda's leader praised his speech.
President Paul Kagame said, "His words were something more valuable than an apology. They were the truth." He called it "an act of tremendous courage".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57270099

 

[Inigo Montoya]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57279008

I thought this was quite interesting. Do you think we'll start seeing other European superpowers begin to take account of their colonial activities in Africa (or elsewhere)? Also encouraging to see them committing €1.1bn to building up Namibia's infrastructure and economy.

I know Belgium (specifically King Leopold) committed some atrocities in the Congo for example. Could there be a movement to get them to recognise this (not picking on Belgium btw, but they came to my mind first)?

Be refreshing if a lot of countries did that. UK could start. USA for its Imperialism.

Has Japan truly acknowledged and apologised for its massacre of Chinese prior to WW2?

 

[The Firestarter]

Be refreshing if a lot of countries did that. UK could start. USA for its Imperialism.

Has Japan truly acknowledged and apologised for its massacre of Chinese prior to WW2?

Not only China, but Korea as well.

 

[diarm]

England:

 

[JPRouve]

France acknowledged their role in Rwanda too.

Interestingly enough the reports criticism of France is the absence of role or to be more accurate the refusal to have an actual role.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Not only China, but Korea as well.

The Rape of Nanking is something they haven’t really acknowledged

 

[esmufc07]

The Rape of Nanking is something they haven’t really acknowledged

There’s a book by Iris Chang with the same name which is a disturbing yet fascinating read if you have already read it. Some truly horrific stories.

 

[2 man midfield]

Has Belgium recognised theirs in Congo?

Studied this at Uni, without doubt the most horrific thing I’ve read about.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

There’s a book by Iris Chang with the same name which is a disturbing yet fascinating read if you have already read it. Some truly horrific stories.

Years ago, when it was first published

 

[horsechoker]

England:

our genocide was written off when we defeated nazi germany and saved the world so we're cool

 

[JPRouve]

For France the evident example would be Haiti, I believe. Not only they deserve an apology but I also think that France should heavily support them today, they are in a dire situation.

 

[diarm]

our genocide was written off when we defeated nazi germany and saved the world so we're cool

I said England, not the US.

 

[horsechoker]

I said England, not the US.

The US? Don't make me laugh, our boy Winston went to Berlin and defeated Hitler bare-handed.

 

[diarm]

The US? Don't make me laugh, our boy Winston went to Berlin and defeated Hitler bare-handed.

The only times Churchill went to Berlin was to eat sausage.

 

[horsechoker]

The only times Churchill went to Berlin was to eat sausage.

He was a man of good taste

 

[ryan_forlan]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57279008

I thought this was quite interesting. Do you think we'll start seeing other European superpowers begin to take account of their colonial activities in Africa (or elsewhere)? Also encouraging to see them committing €1.1bn to building up Namibia's infrastructure and economy.

I know Belgium (specifically King Leopold) committed some atrocities in the Congo for example. Could there be a movement to get them to recognise this (not picking on Belgium btw, but they came to my mind first)?

Whatever England did in India, also calls for an apology, right?
And if they do acknowledge and apologize, should they then be dropped as a permanent member of the security council?

 

[diarm]

He was a man of good taste

He was well practiced.

 

[Sky1981]

Not only China, but Korea as well.

Indonesia as well

 

[The Corinthian]

Whatever England did in India, also calls for an apology, right?
And if they do acknowledge and apologize, should they then be dropped as a permanent member of the security council?

I agree - I think Shashi Tharoor has been trumpeting this for a while now. They should also return the Koh-i-noor, as well as other artefacts (as should the British Museum to other countries).

 

[The Corinthian]

For France the evident example would be Haiti, I believe. Not only they deserve an apology but I also think that France should heavily support them today, they are in a dire situation.

Algeria too, no?

 

[ryan_forlan]

I agree - I think Shashi Tharoor has been trumpeting this for a while now. They should also return the Koh-i-noor, as well as other artefacts (as should the British Museum to other countries).

I don't care if they took the diamond. Let them have it. They killed and exploited so many people. It is mad that they get to sit on a privileged seat at the UN. Ignore what China says and give India the perma-seat. :-)

 

[JPRouve]

Algeria too, no?

It's a bit more complicated and not one sided. I want to say yes France should make amend but the other side should too because it was an actual armed conflict with terrorism on both sides. I don't really like the idea of only looking at that one from one angle.

 

[OleBoiii]

Has Japan truly acknowledged and apologised for its massacre of Chinese prior to WW2?

I think Japan has acknowledged the atrocities and apologised to some countries. The main critique is that the apologies seem like empty gestures. Japanese school kids also don't learn nearly enough about what Japan did back in the day. Nanking etc is glossed over in a line or two like "oh, and we did some bad things in China. Anyways..." There are also some big name politicians who seriously play down the atrocities, which will continue to enrage politicians in South Korea(for instance).

I think the best thing that came out of post war Japan, which still is very present to this day, is a general population that is extremely anti war. The Japanese are generally not very politically engaged and hardly ever organise large protests. They're extremely conformist(to an annoying degree, imo). But one of the few things that will cause major protests is whenever the government hints that they might want to strengthen their military or help the US more in the middle east etc. That shit will always cause an uproar.

 

[Vidyoyo]

I think Japan has acknowledged the atrocities and apologised to some countries. The main critique is that the apologies seem like empty gestures. Japanese school kids also don't learn nearly enough about what Japan did back in the day. Nanking etc is glossed over in a line or two like "oh, and we did some bad things in China. Anyways..." There are also some big name politicians who seriously play down the atrocities, which will continue to enrage politicians in South Korea(for instance).

I think the best thing that came out of post war Japan, which still is very present to this day, is a general population that is extremely anti war. The Japanese are generally not very politically engaged and hardly ever organise large protests. They're extremely conformist(to an annoying degree, imo). But one of the few things that will cause major protests is whenever the government hints that they might want to strengthen their military or help the US more in the middle east etc. That shit will always cause an uproar.

Good post and very true. The film Patlabor 2 was based on some of those sentiments, specifically about a time when the JSDF were involved in military matters outside of the country (sometime in the 90s, in Vietnam, Laos or Cambodia I think).

Didn't Trump (surprisingly) cause some outrage recently when he declared he wouldn't support Japan and they needed to up their military might?

 

[OleBoiii]

Didn't Trump (surprisingly) cause some outrage recently when he declared he wouldn't support Japan and they needed to up their military might?

I haven't been good at keeping up to date with Japanese politics recently, but I do think I read something about Japan possibly strengthening their military as a result of weakening connections with the US under Trump.

 

[Vidyoyo]

I haven't been good at keeping up to date with Japanese politics recently, but I do think I read something about Japan possibly strengthening their military as a result of weakening connections with the US under Trump.

Banzai!

 

[11101]

I haven't been good at keeping up to date with Japanese politics recently, but I do think I read something about Japan possibly strengthening their military as a result of weakening connections with the US under Trump.

They want to move it from a defence force to an offensive capability.

Some of my friends in Tokyo have no idea about a lot of what they did in WW2. It's not taught and outright denied in some cases and it was painted as an honorable end to the war rather than a surrender.

 

[OleBoiii]

They want to move it from a defence force to an offensive capability.

Ah yeah, that's it! I think there were some protests concerning this.

Some of my friends in Tokyo have no idea about a lot of what they did in WW2.

That seems to be the standard, yeah. Every Japanese person I've talked to about WW2 knows that Japan "did bad things". The problem is that they don't know any details whatsoever beyond Pearl Harbor, and I genuinely think that's just because of that terrible Michael Bay movie.

Imperialist Japan(late 1800's to 1945) is heavily glossed over in the curriculum.

 

[Cheimoon]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57279008

I thought this was quite interesting. Do you think we'll start seeing other European superpowers begin to take account of their colonial activities in Africa (or elsewhere)? Also encouraging to see them committing €1.1bn to building up Namibia's infrastructure and economy.

I know Belgium (specifically King Leopold) committed some atrocities in the Congo for example. Could there be a movement to get them to recognise this (not picking on Belgium btw, but they came to my mind first)?

From what I'm aware of, countries tend to be reluctant to admit to anything because of the potential financial ramifications involved. For example, the Netherlands should apologize for its actions in Indonesia post-WW2, but it won't, cause it fears that victims would launch a court case and be awarded large sums of money in compensation. Which would only be right, because damage was done and colonialism has generally anyway done huge damage to the relevant colonized countries' society and institutions - but that's not how these self-serving ex-colonialist countries think, of course...

 

[MU655]

I understand acknowledging things like this etc. but I don't understand apologising for it. What does apologising on behalf of someone else even mean?

By apologising, you are somehow saying you are guilty for what someone else did just because you have the same nationality. And, at times, they are apologising to people that the crime didn't even happen to because those people have been dead for hundreds of years.

There are countless atrocities throughout history, and I don't think asking for apologies is productive because it has no meaning.

Ottomans used to raid southern England for slaves. The Norse pillaged and raped their way across the coasts of Europe. The Mongols committed genocide and destroyed Baghdad, from which it never recovered. Should we ask people from those countries now to apologise?

 

[Bosws87]

I understand acknowledging things like this etc. but I don't understand apologising for it. What does apologising on behalf of someone else even mean?

By apologising, you are somehow saying you are guilty for what someone else did just because you have the same nationality. And, at times, they are apologising to people that the crime didn't even happen to because those people have been dead for hundreds of years.

There are countless atrocities throughout history, and I don't think asking for apologies is productive because it has no meaning.

Ottomans used to raid southern England for slaves. The Norse pillaged and raped their way across the coasts of Europe. The Mongols committed genocide and destroyed Baghdad, from which it never recovered. Should we ask people from those countries now to apologise?

Normalize not holding on to grudges through generations and trying to pass on guilt to people that weren't even in existence when these things happenings.

If as humans we could move on and get over things there would be a lot less trouble that's for sure.

 

[OleBoiii]

There are countless atrocities throughout history, and I don't think asking for apologies is productive because it has no meaning.

Apologising for things that happened a very long time ago(let's say 100 years or more) is pointless. But if there are still people alive that experienced the atrocities, then I don't think an apology on behalf of a country is too much to ask for.

Ultimately the most important thing is to acknowledge your mistakes and then teach your children about them so that they learn from it. Germany has done this well.

 

[The Corinthian]

I understand acknowledging things like this etc. but I don't understand apologising for it. What does apologising on behalf of someone else even mean?

By apologising, you are somehow saying you are guilty for what someone else did just because you have the same nationality. And, at times, they are apologising to people that the crime didn't even happen to because those people have been dead for hundreds of years.

There are countless atrocities throughout history, and I don't think asking for apologies is productive because it has no meaning.

Ottomans used to raid southern England for slaves. The Norse pillaged and raped their way across the coasts of Europe. The Mongols committed genocide and destroyed Baghdad, from which it never recovered. Should we ask people from those countries now to apologise?

We're talking about atrocities that happened in the last 100 years though. It's not really the same as the instances you've described. Furthermore, many of these countries where atrocities were committed only gained their independence in the last 50-75 years. There's families who've still lived through this massive change.

The key for me is, and one thing I really liked about Germany, is the commitment in financial aid. I think it's important for established economies to help build up developing markets too. I also agree with the poster above that it's an important teaching mechanism and can lead to a cultural shift. Even acknowledgement of one's crimes can bring a lot of closure to people.

 

[neverdie]

Whatever England did in India, also calls for an apology, right?
And if they do acknowledge and apologize, should they then be dropped as a permanent member of the security council?

The only criteria for being a permanent member of the security council is being a nuclear armed state with a history of colonial domination at the time of the council's founding. Only China may be exempt from the second part.

 

[MU655]

Apologising for things that happened a very long time ago(let's say 100 years or more) is pointless. But if there are still people alive that experienced the atrocities, then I don't think an apology on behalf of a country is too much to ask for.

Ultimately the most important thing is to acknowledge your mistakes and then teach your children about them so that they learn from it. Germany has done this well.

We're talking about atrocities that happened in the last 100 years though. It's not really the same as the instances you've described. Furthermore, many of these countries where atrocities were committed only gained their independence in the last 50-75 years. There's families who've still lived through this massive change.

The key for me is, and one thing I really liked about Germany, is the commitment in financial aid. I think it's important for established economies to help build up developing markets too. I also agree with the poster above that it's an important teaching mechanism and can lead to a cultural shift. Even acknowledgement of one's crimes can bring a lot of closure to people.

What you both say is true. I just don't really see much meaning behind an apology aside from those who were responsible or possibly somehow let it happen. It is likely that even 75 years ago most, if not all, those perpetrators and those related to the instance are dead.

 

[bsCallout]

Studied this at Uni, without doubt the most horrific thing I’ve read about.

Is it the Congo that still has the library in the jungle being looked after from the days of the white man invasion?

 

[bsCallout]

Whatever England did in India, also calls for an apology, right?
And if they do acknowledge and apologize, should they then be dropped as a permanent member of the security council?

What you on about? All we did was buy tea and borrow their recipe books.