I asked in that thread if they could change the name but got no response, so I went for it.
European Energy Crisis
- Thread starter Beans
- Start date
One realistic thing EU can do to make the power cheaper in the short-term is to set a cap on the carbon market pricing (currently 96EUR/ton vs suggested 25-30EUR/ton).
What's the sentiment in Germany in hindsight with regards to shutting down nuclear plants?
The Economist doesn't seem to like that idea:
"How households respond to enormous price shocks has rarely been studied, owing to a lack of real-world data. One exception is that produced by Ukraine, which Anna Alberini of the University of Maryland and co-authors have studied, looking at price rises in 2015 after subsidies were cut. They found that among households that did not invest in better heating or insulation a doubling of prices led to a 16% decline in consumption.
Policies to help households cope with high prices have also been studied—and the results are bad news for politicians capping prices. In California, where a government programme cut the marginal price of gas for poor households by 20%, households raised their consumption by 8.5% over the next year to 18 months. Ukraine has found a better way to help. Households struggling to pay their bills can apply for a cash transfer. Since such a transfer is unrelated to consumption, it preserves the incentive for shorter showers, and thus does not blunt the effect of high prices on gas use. Another option is a halfway house between a price cap and a transfer. An Austrian state recently introduced a discount on the first 80% of a typical household’s consumption, which means people retain an incentive to cut back on anything over that.
…Households are not the only consumers of gas. Early in the war, manufacturers and agricultural producers argued against doing anything that might risk supplies, since production processes took time to alter and output losses could cascade through the economy. But initial evidence from the German dairy and fertiliser industries suggests that even heavy users respond to higher prices. Farmers have switched from gas to oil heating; ammonia, fertiliser’s gas-intensive ingredient, is now imported instead of being made locally.
Over time, households and industry will adapt more to higher prices, meaning that with every passing month demand for gas will fall."
https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2022/08/25/how-to-avoid-energy-rationing
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The European price of gas has not really inflated much despite the full Russian shutdown. 240 Euros per MW today, compared to 350 Euros per MW hr 2 weeks ago and 215 Euros per MW last Friday. I expected it to hit 300+ this week and next.
I think there is a bit of light at the end of the tunnel. I mean, gas is already at 0 flow so Russia can't do much more than that.
Let's see how the prices play out for the rest of the week.
I think there is a bit of light at the end of the tunnel. I mean, gas is already at 0 flow so Russia can't do much more than that.
Let's see how the prices play out for the rest of the week.
I read an article about a week ago which said this would happen, that the price would come down.
I imagine it will fluctuate.
Personally i´m still waiting for the earthquakes and tsunami´s to come, on a serious note lots of countries around Germany have built more nuclear powerstations so if anything happens Germany will be hit anyway and I have never understood this decision at all, yes getting rid of the nuclear fuel is a problem but at some point the politicians need to show some sense.
Instead I would introduce a 20% reduction on all rents - private and commercial - so people / companies can pay the energy bills.
I know it's never gonna happen.
It violates also probably some basic laws like freedom of contracts and right to ownership - but it would solve many problems in an unbureacratic way.
There is some noise. But not too much. After all nuclear power is still risky and at the end of the day the most expensive source of energy (and just look at France where half of the nuclear plants were not working during the summer).
However, I fully expect that the next government will be quite conservative - and they will open the gates for all sorts of industries: coal, nuclear etc.
Is it, really?
And you think breaking those laws is going to be unbureacratic ... especially when the lawyers come after them
Well, yes. There is almost no way to cover the long term risks and costs.
Those laws are not explicit. For example there were law suits against the minimum wage - based on a similar reasoning.
I thought of it as unbureaucratic because all other schemes involve multiple laws, checks and procedures (like the government collecting from A - doing a check how much they can collect - and redestributing it to B - while also checking how much B needs).
When Russia first invaded everybody was saying we had to cut Russia off and an inevitable rise in energy prices was a price most were willing to pay to do it... well here we are. Who is still willing to stick by that?
Only Russia, the US, and possibly China have energy and food security within their own borders. Europe is capable of it as a bloc but it has never been necessary. We can expect that to change, with massive investment in sustainable energy production. In the long term that will be a good thing.
Only Russia, the US, and possibly China have energy and food security within their own borders. Europe is capable of it as a bloc but it has never been necessary. We can expect that to change, with massive investment in sustainable energy production. In the long term that will be a good thing.
This was always expected. Anyone with an iota of sense knows that they were going to cut it off. There is an article by Former Secretary of Defense William Perry who said that this has to be expected and the Europeans should have known this.
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China is the most energy insecure country on the planet. But if they're friends with Russia that helps immensely. They need Middle East oil like oxygen. If someone like India blocked the shipping route it could be devestating.
I think they were afraid of being voted out if they didn't.
Yes, someone's got to win if so many others are losing. But boy, they are winning at a canter.
Just out of curiosity. What sort of unit price are domestic users now paying for electricity (kWh) and gas in your country? Is there a chart showing those kind of current domestic tariffs for the EU anywhere?
My current contract comes to and end next month.
I was paying 20.89€ monthly standing charge and then 22.89 cents per kWh.
I stopped the renewal and signed up to another provider in April envisaging crazy prices near contract end next month (my provider was offer 58 cents per kWh at that time for a contract starting in October).
So, I will pay 12.64€ monthly standing charge and then 35 cent per kWh fixed for a year.
Just to pat myself on the back, I looked at what a new deal now would cost:
With the existing provider it's 8.90€ and 70 cents per kWh.
With my new provider it's 15.90€ and 53 cents per kWh.
Mental.
I was paying 20.89€ monthly standing charge and then 22.89 cents per kWh.
I stopped the renewal and signed up to another provider in April envisaging crazy prices near contract end next month (my provider was offer 58 cents per kWh at that time for a contract starting in October).
So, I will pay 12.64€ monthly standing charge and then 35 cent per kWh fixed for a year.
Just to pat myself on the back, I looked at what a new deal now would cost:
With the existing provider it's 8.90€ and 70 cents per kWh.
With my new provider it's 15.90€ and 53 cents per kWh.
Mental.
Where are you based?
In France, my current contract is 11.34€ monthly subscription and 0.1659€ per kWh. Need to control electricity/heating during the winter else I am looking at bills of 80-100€ between November and February.
Electricity: €0.1659 per kWh with €11.34 fixed monthly charges.
Just looked up what we'd pay if I needed a new contract now. Electricity is €5,84 fixed and €0,83635 per kWh. Gas is €5,84 fixed and €3,97820 per m3. Just moved so don't know what we need yet but based on an average two person household we're looking at €600 per month. Luckily our contract doesn't run out till halfway next year otherwise we'd be royally fecked. And that's in a 1980s house, nothing fancy. Got friends living in a house from the 1930s (rent) who are currently on €300-400 a month but who'd have to pay €1200 a month with the current tariffs. Madness.
Anyone who can should get insultation in their house, it will pay for itself. There should be national programs for that, storm windows would be good too, do you guys have those? We tend to only see those in the north here. Clear plastic over the windows is a good temporary version.
Don't know if genuine -
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That must be fake, surely.
That's obviously fake.
I wouldn't think people are told their increased increments in that way, we don't get British Gas. On the off chance some of you in the UK are about to get any sort of notification it'll be interesting. I'll find out our businesses bills soon.
Oh yeah I agree, but the problem is not everyone can. Many (like us) are dependant upon their landlords because they don't own their homes. Our landlord (big real estate investor who owns half the neighbourhood) has just replaced all our roof windows (4) so that's something at least, but the windows on the ground floor are still from the 80s and the window frames and doors (wood) are too. No extra roof insulation or solar panels either so there's a lot that could be improved but there's no plans for that. Our landlord had planned to install solar panels in all their property nationwide within 5 years but shortages (both materials and people) have seen them up that to 10 years. If this had been my property I'd have invested in insulation for sure.
Would you mind if your government used tax money to fund insulation for any house than can take it, free of charge, with it becoming the property of the landlord? Renters would benefit from lower energy bills. Seems perfect.
Yes and no. We're simultaneously going through a housing crisis in The Netherlands where it's getting to be nigh on impossible for regular Joes to buy a house for themselves (me and my wife have tried for two years and failed, hence the new rental place). Rent's gone up loads too. So yes I would love it if the government would set up more programmes to better insulate property, but not if that means higher rent. I'd like to see them fix the property that could benefit most from insulation first. Our 1980s house isn't great but it's not bad either. But the 1930s house I was talking about earlier uses twice as much gas to heat it even though it's smaller. And the friends that live there make less than us. Luckily they're in the same situation as us where they're not due a new energy contract yet but if they were they would instantly be in financial trouble. And that's despite both of them working and doing what they can to lower the energy bill.
Maybe not fake but from a nonsense meter reading being entered. Domestic bills are being capped at 33p a unit in the UK.That's obviously fake.
They haven't announced for business yet, looks like it will be the same and backdated possibly for 6 months at least.
Most EU countries are doing something similar I think. The big problem will be possibly running out entirely, rather than the price.
Why do you think it would make rents to up? Because the property has more value? I suppose they could make them agree to a cap on price increases in line with the market in their region. But it could get messy.
Yeap, increase in value. I've a couple of friends who live in what they call "social rent houses" over here, basically subsidized housing, who aren't getting any new insulation because they'd have to raise the rent above a value that is considered appropriate for the property. One of those friends asked for her front door te be replaced because snow and rain would get through but they wouldn't do it because of said rules. She now has to put towels in front of her door. Mind boggling. I don't know exactly how it all works but rules like these definitely aren't helping.
High Natural-Gas Prices Push European Manufacturers to Shift to the U.S.
The Ukraine war is driving up energy costs in Europe, while relatively stable prices and green-energy incentives are luring companies to the U.S.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/high-n...manufacturers-to-shift-to-the-u-s-11663707594
The Ukraine war is driving up energy costs in Europe, while relatively stable prices and green-energy incentives are luring companies to the U.S.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/high-n...manufacturers-to-shift-to-the-u-s-11663707594
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"As bad as it is now, these might still be the good days for Europe. With winter and higher gas demand on the way, experts told Fortune that Europe’s energy market has never been more vulnerable. Even the slightest uptick in energy demand anywhere in the world could push entire sectors of Europe’s manufacturing industry to shut down entirely, devastating European economies with a wave of unemployment, high prices, and in all likelihood public unrest and divisions between European nations.
“Prices are at historically record levels. We have never ever seen anything actually like this,” Tatiana Mitrova, a research fellow with Columbia University’s Center on Global Energy Policy, told Fortune. “This will become quite painful.”"
https://fortune.com/2022/09/24/europe-energy-crisis-winter-natural-gas-putin/
“Prices are at historically record levels. We have never ever seen anything actually like this,” Tatiana Mitrova, a research fellow with Columbia University’s Center on Global Energy Policy, told Fortune. “This will become quite painful.”"
https://fortune.com/2022/09/24/europe-energy-crisis-winter-natural-gas-putin/