"Finishing 2nd with this team a great achievement"

[roonster09]

This club will not make progress as long as we keep thinking the biggest issue we have is the manager. Again, recent evidences disprove that.

About excusing everything Jose did, no I am not. He mishandled the board's rejection of his requests, he moaned too much, he lost the dressing room and his football was, for long spells, boring. But he was not our biggest problem and some of us fans allow our dislike for him to cloud our judgement. That's my issue.

Can any manager do anything more wrong than those things? If this was one off, then yes maybe it was excusable. Jose lost dressing room at Chelsea (first time), Madrid, Chelsea second time, ManUtd. Only place where he didn't was at Porto and Inter.

 

[Danny]

So just because he didn't the players he wanted, it's alright to act like a miserable and moaning cnut? Poch didn't sign any player and even last season they signed 1 or 2 players, didnt mean he moaned about it and acted like a spoiled brat, he worked with his team and is comfortably finishing in top 3 and also eliminated City and Dortmund in CL.

People moan about modern players, attitude all that, none of them comes close to Jose when it comes to rotten attitude when he doesn't get what he wants.

You talk about Pogba as problem, somehow he leads in every stat among ManUtd players. We are in this mess because of many reasons, none bigger than hiring Jose.

Mourinho was under a lot more pressure than Poch to achieve and compete at the top table, having finished 2nd, which is why he threw his toys out of the pram I'd imagine as opposed to Poch. Club knew what they were getting when appointing Mourinho so therefore shouldn't have then changed when he wanted specific targets to help him achieve what the targets he was set.

I'm not a massive fan of Mourinho but I can see why he would be disappointed in Woodward for not trying to land the players we actually needed in positions of weakness. There were loads of people stating they though United would compete/win the league after finishing 2nd IF they improved in key areas.

 

[JPRouve]

our little story is a fabrication. To act as if Maguire was the only reason.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44240320

Simon Stone said many times that Alderweireld was a target. He also said that Godin was a target but we only made an effort for him last second (a token effort from our board, for a player they didn't fancy because of age, so they went in at a pointless time). No self respecting player would move when given an offer out of nowhere at the end of the window, so he just used us for a pay rise. There is a recurring theme, the board did not believe in Mourinho's targets that were in their late twenties because they have no resale value.

If your read the article it says that United made inquiries for Alderweireld which makes your entire theory worthless, since it literally tells you that United went for him. Now the question that you have to ask yourself is whether Alderweireld and Spurs were interested and for how much. Your post only strengthen my point according to the reports that you use to make up your theory the club went after Godin, Alderweireld and Maguire. The issue here is that you seem to think that there is only one side in a transfer.

Also your little theory about Godin is interesting but it doesn't really fit with the reports since he is supposed to be the one who rejected us.

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[edgar allan]

Mourinho was under a lot more pressure than Poch to achieve and compete at the top table, having finished 2nd, which is why he threw his toys out of the pram I'd imagine as opposed to Poch. Club knew what they were getting when appointing Mourinho so therefore shouldn't have then changed when he wanted specific targets to help him achieve what the targets he was set.

I'm not a massive fan of Mourinho but I can see why he would be disappointed in Woodward for not trying to land the players we actually needed in positions of weakness. There were loads of people stating they though United would compete/win the league after finishing 2nd IF they improved in key areas.

Not many people that actually watched us play that season. Many of the positions of weakness were as a direct result of his previous failures of recruitment.

Then he spent 70 million on Fred & Dalot

 

[André Dominguez]

That's true, but it's also all on the club. Either you don't hire him or you allow him to do whatever the hell he wants with the squad.

I think there were a series of events that led us to this part.

Mourinho was the best manager available. He just won the title with Chelsea 1 season ago and was available. From the "greedy" sucess at all costs point of view, was not a bad decision.

Our board also took a lot of time to realize that today's market is not the same.

Nowadays one or two top players will cost the majority of the budget and you will be left uncovered for the rest of the squad improvements.

It seems that nowadays there's no courage to hire a player that is not in his country top club or from expensive leagues. Because when that player gets to a top club, that comes with a price.

 

[sunama]

And yet he still managed to make it toxic.

If this is supposed to be a vindication of what he said, it's bullshit. He's gone, fecking deal with it

You sound very angry, indeed.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That you finish higher when key players are performing well and competitors perform worse isn't really a point?

I mean you could use the same logic to discount Sir Alex's influence in plenty of our title winning teams especially the Ronaldo ones.

Do you think the identity of the Manchester United manager has been the most important factor (or even any kind of factor at all) in De Gea/Liverpool's form, this season vs last?

Because if not, then I'd say my point stands (whether or not you think it is really a point)

 

[Danny]

Not many people that actually watched us play that season. Many of the positions of weakness were as a direct result of his previous failures of recruitment.

Then he spent 70 million on Fred & Dalot

Possibly, but he was also taking on LVG's failures too. I don't think Fred and Dalot were his priority signings. Common knowledge he was after a couple of centre backs at least, even if Baily had come good for him.

 

[Lay]

He was spot on.

 

[edgar allan]

Possibly, but he was also taking on LVG's failures too. I don't think Fred and Dalot were his priority signings. Common knowledge he was after a couple of centre backs at least, even if Baily had come good for him.

Of course, and he could go back to Fergie's failure to strengthen also.
However he got plenty of money to spend and wasted the majority of it, limping to a poor second place last year was no great achievement.

 

[sunama]

We got 2 problems.
Got rid one -- Mourinho.
Still left with the other one -- Players.

3 problems:
A board who are satisfied with 4th place, as it helps bring in the cash for the Glazers. I think that this problem is the biggest as it dictates what is expected of the manager and the amount of money he will have available to spend, to achieve those targets.

 

[JPRouve]

Possibly, but he was also taking on LVG's failures too. I don't think Fred and Dalot were his priority signings. Common knowledge he was after a couple of centre backs at least, even if Baily had come good for him.

Why wouldn't Fred be a priority? As far as I can remember he was one if not the first player seriously linked to a move to United in February or March 2018 and iirc Mourinho was talking about having a brazilian in the team during the next season.

 

[wolvored]

When was finishing 2nd an achievement for this club? Would Madrid celebrate finishing 20 points behind Barça, or Munich behind Dortmund?

 

[Danny]

Why wouldn't Fred be a priority? As far as I can remember he was one if not the first player seriously linked to a move to United in February or March 2018 and iirc Mourinho was talking about having a brazilian in the team during the next season.

Sorry, I mean that he would have surely prioritised defenders as opposed to Fred? I think that he would have wanted Fred as well as a new centre back. Given the choice I'm sure he'd have preferred a centre back instead.

 

[JPRouve]

Sorry, I mean that he would have surely prioritised defenders as opposed to Fred? I think that he would have wanted Fred as well as a new centre back. Given the choice I'm sure he'd have preferred a centre back instead.

Why? We lacked quality and numbers in midfield while we actually had and still have numbers in central defense. Logic and what happened last summer and the months prior to it dictates that Fred and CM was very much a priority. If we believe most reports the club and Mourinho also tried to sign a CB but there is no actual reason to believe that it was above CM in the pecking order.

 

[Jojo <3 Mou]

That’s 400 million worth of players, you freak.

Thats an entirely new defence, two strikers/attackers (having already signed mikhataryan and Zlatan as well, remember)

That’s having sold current CB champions league Semi finalist Daley Blind in favour of keeping Chris Smalling.

That’s our entire centre midfield.

The irony of all this is that our best players are still either Ferguson signings (de Gea), or an academy graduate

Don’t nit pick. Admit it, Jose’s transfers were a disaster

Calm down you non freakish person.

That is two new CBs and a 19 year old RB. 2 of the 3 are currently working well for the team. Alexis was exchanged for Mkhitaryan. Also, Lukaku was bought to replace Zlatan who was signed for free. Alexis has been a dud, and Lukaku has worked ... at times.

Selling Daley Blind instead of Smalling was was probably because they could actually get something for Blind. I don't think he is a fantastic defender but neither is Smalling. Its not a point for or against anyone, in my opinion.

Pogba is the key to how the team plays. Fred is struggling and Matic had one good season. He could be a reliable substitute or bit part time player. So at the moment only 1 of the 3 seems to be a good purchase but we know things can change.

It is dissapointing that these players haven't worked better, but you do realise that Mourinho doesn't negotiate player cost or wages. By now, everyone should realise that United has been paying above market value for players. You should take that up with Woodward because this issue just makes mistake buys look worst.

Mourinho doesn't have the best transfer record and yet his purchases made the team waaaay better that what it was before. And, most of his players are young so somewhat resealable. Because lets admit that no one gets it totally right in the transfer market.

Uniteds team building has been really baffling. They have spent money yet somehow haven't successfully addressed so many issues. The team finishes 2nd with problems in defense, midfield and attack yet you buy only an injured 19 yr old RB, a midfielder and a 3rd choice GK. Such ambition...

 

[GM K]

Can any manager do anything more wrong than those things? If this was one off, then yes maybe it was excusable. Jose lost dressing room at Chelsea (first time), Madrid, Chelsea second time, ManUtd. Only place where he didn't was at Porto and Inter.

It does not change the point I noted. Jose was not our biggest problem. Neither is Ole as some are beginning to insinuate.

About Jose losing the dressing room, people like him are like that. He is a straight shooter, blunt, undiplomatic and egoistic. Most people can't handle and don't like people like that.

Back to us, we need a more holistic approach to turning this club around. It's not just about hiring and firing managers.

 

[Stacks]

Jose was right however there was little competition as 3rd placed was on 77 and aiming for 79 this season (Spurs). there were no challengers for City, Arsenal and Chelsea were awful (still are). its not too hard to be the best of the rest as everyone from 3rd down are unpredictable

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

And yet he still managed to make it toxic.

If this is supposed to be a vindication of what he said, it's bullshit. He's gone, fecking deal with it

Yeah,and Ole will be gone by next December thanks to the board....After spending another 150-200 million We”ll be looking for a new manager again next summer...We”ll have to fecking deal with that as well...

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Jose assembled & led that team for years. Ole is just trying to clear up Jose's mess.

Jose was trying to clear up LVG and Moyes’s mess....

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

He can sod off and so can his crazy apologists.

Yeah,cause we”ve now got Ole at the wheel who’s quite clearly the messiah we had all been waiting for...

 

[Siorac]

De Gea prevented 3.27 xG in the Arsenal game alone. He had 3-4 freak games last season that massively affected this stat.

Our xGA last season was 43.54, this season it's 48.22 with 3 games left to go (likely will hit 50). De Gea is leaking more goals because teams are getting better chances against us, and he can't always be a one man team. Granted he has been worse this season, but only by his standards. He still makes world class saves, but also more mistakes.

Thing is, 3-4 freak games is pretty much the difference between finishing 2nd and 4th or 5th. Let's say we win 4 games that we'd have lost or drawn if De Gea had not made insane saves: that's 8-12 points. That's a lot.

We are doing worse this season, no doubt, but last season's points total and consequently, league position, were inflated by some superhuman goalkeeping. Something that's been mostly absent this season, bar those 30 minutes at White Hart Lane.

 

[MackRobinson]

Old quotes are worthless in football - everyone knows that basically everyone changes their tune in accordance with their own situation. That goes for life in general too.

So we should applaud him for talking out of both sides of his mouth? You sure do have high standards for a United manager...

Jose was trying to clear up LVG and Moyes’s mess....

Are you saying he didn't a) know that was his job b) 3 years wasn't enough and/or c) he didn't add to the deadwood (see Fred and Sanchez)? If so that's absurd.

I'll leave you both with the following: (curious to see how you spin this and defend him)
https://www.skysports.com/football/...nited-are-ready-for-a-serious-title-challenge

"In many ways, it is my team. In terms of the squad, this is my second transfer window. I was thinking, three transfer windows, I need that. But after two windows I have a good group and a football club much better equipped."

"We are much better organised in the areas that support the first-team squad. We are much better organised at every level. So we will go for it this season. We are going to try to win the title."

"We also have people coming later - Ashley Young, Luke Shaw, Marcos Rojo, maybe Zlatan (Ibrahimovic). They can still be like new players for us later in the season, so we are fine."

"To buy lots of good players is important. Better squads are better equipped to win the title. That is normal, but that is not enough. I think every one of us is equipped to win the title."

 

[Siorac]

Mourinho was under a lot more pressure than Poch to achieve and compete at the top table, having finished 2nd, which is why he threw his toys out of the pram I'd imagine as opposed to Poch. Club knew what they were getting when appointing Mourinho so therefore shouldn't have then changed when he wanted specific targets to help him achieve what the targets he was set.

I'm not a massive fan of Mourinho but I can see why he would be disappointed in Woodward for not trying to land the players we actually needed in positions of weakness. There were loads of people stating they though United would compete/win the league after finishing 2nd IF they improved in key areas.

Was he though? The Glazers are constantly accused of lacking any ambition beyond commercial success, for which top 4 is a sufficient achievement. And really, the only real pressure could come from them.

Was he under pressure from the media? Someone as experienced as Mourinho should not give a solitary feck about that. Were the fans too demanding? Contrary to the accusations of curmudgeonly caftards, the problem with our fanbase is not entitlement: one could argue we are in fact far too patient, having applauded even David fecking Moyes off the pitch after that ridiculous banner, as a show of support despite his utterly terrible performance in every significant aspect of the job.

I don't doubt that if we had given Mourinho what he wanted, the first half of this season wouldn't have been so disastrous. We might have had a competent, workmanlike team that huffs and puffs its way into the top 3. But challenge and compete at the top? Only in a "Leicester City season": when no one else is on the top of their game, or anywhere close to it. Provided he can keep his insanity in check until then - it's far more likely that he would have blown up and self-destructed for some entirely different reason, such as the son of the groundsman looking at him funny or one of the players refusing to play on with a torn cruciate ligament.

 

[UTDbornfan]

So are you telling us Mourinho wasn't happy with the players the club purchased? Before you attempt explain this away I'm just going to leave you with this:



Straight from the horses mouth:




At this point, I don't understand what the point of defending him is. He clearly got in wrong in terms of personnel and playing style.

"Well, Woodward shouldn't have signed off on those players" - So you can then argue he didn't back the manager?
"Well, Woodward shouldn't have paid so much" - As if he alone determines what to pay for a player.
"Well, Woodward should have identified better players" - Is he a scout now? Isn't this same guy who gets laughed at for offering 100M for Varane?

Your claiming it was the weakest title challenge in history, yet our highest point tally during SAF's period was 92 points and that would get us 2nd last year and 3rd this year, so SAF himself wouldn't be able to compete with this City side tbh... and no one expected this from City last year when Mourinho made the quotes... And to then spend pocket change and expect us to compete with this years City/Liverpool was a joke.

All the blame falls on the board not backing Mourinho during the summer, they bought Fred/Dalot/Lee Grant and expected us to jump 20 points.

 

[Buster15]

When was finishing 2nd an achievement for this club? Would Madrid celebrate finishing 20 points behind Barça, or Munich behind Dortmund?

Exactly but our primary target this season is to finish 4th.
Finishing 2nd last season was an excellent outcome given the squad of players and I maintain that Jose deserved credit for that.
Just as if we are able to finish 4th Ole will deserve credit for that.

Success is relative even for Manchester United.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Jose was trying to clear up LVG and Moyes’s mess....

And made a bigger mess.

 

[spiriticon]

Then, why the hell are you so happy??? You completely missed the point of the thread. People here aren't talking about saving a past manager. Are talking about saving the club and identifying the real culprit of this mess.

Who's happy? I'm irritated that I still see his quotes in a title thread when he should be consigned to the past.

The problems facing our club is discussed all over the forum, and in fact, everywhere. There is no need to talk about Mourinho for being some sort of special one for saying what everyone sees.

 

[BaneIsPain]

Yes but he is half to blame for this squad

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Jose was trying to clear up LVG and Moyes’s mess....

That’s revisionist to say the least.
What about the mess he left behind at Chelsea? Conte cleared that up only for the Cnut to go round holding 3 fingers up.

If you’re a Jose fan there’s nothing stopping you following him to his next club. Just stop singing his praises about his time here

 

[ErranMorad]

Stop the revisionism. Jose did not sabotage half of our season. Ed Woodward spectacularly jumped ship in the Summer. 'Because Jose wanted the wrong players' is a poor excuse. So why didn't he buy the players he thought were the right players? Also, some players obviously downed tools. Number one on that list is our best player, Paul Pogba. If anyone sabotaged half our season, it was Pogba. We all saw the evidence after Jose left. Jose was of course part of the problem but this constant hanging all our problems on his neck is so boring and has been disproved by what we have seen under Ole so far.

He absolutely did sabotage the season. You could foretell from his demeanor throughout the preseason and beyond that a shit show was coming. And that is exactly how it transpired. Spurs didn't make a single signing & had all the uncertainty with the stadium, still they are in the CL semi-finals and will comfortably finish top 3. The excuse about signings is a pathetic one. We did sign two players and added Sanchez just six months before. But the fecking moron kept on complaining and did his level best to tank our season.

 

[sunama]

If we go a few years, hovering in the 4th-6th place territory, I think that's when we will appreciate the 2nd place achievement. If however, we achieve 1st or 2nd in the coming years, Jose's achievement will be seen as nothing spectacular.

 

[MackRobinson]

Your claiming it was the weakest title challenge in history, yet our highest point tally during SAF's period was 92 points and that would get us 2nd last year and 3rd this year, so SAF himself wouldn't be able to compete with this City side tbh... and no one expected this from City last year when Mourinho made the quotes... And to then spend pocket change and expect us to compete with this years City/Liverpool was a joke.

All the blame falls on the board not backing Mourinho during the summer, they bought Fred/Dalot/Lee Grant and expected us to jump 20 points.

Wait. You honestly think obtaining Perisic, Willian, and McGuire, while getting rid of Martial, would have made a 20 point difference? Don't be silly.

 

[smallred]

And yet he still managed to make it toxic.

If this is supposed to be a vindication of what he said, it's bullshit. He's gone, fecking deal with it

and its not toxic now????? despite all the positivity from Ole, the love he has shown the players etc, we are currently -

on worst run of results since 1962. worst run of conceding goals since 1971.
top players all playing awful.
press running with reports of players fighting with each other.
Pogba on his way out, Lukaku and DDG (and Herrera) along with 4 or 5 more out of contracts) also on the way out maybe.
playing worst style of football seen at the club in decades.

something tells me, Jose wasnt the problem. it was never this bad under Jose.

 

[smallred]

We got 2 problems.
Got rid one -- Mourinho.
Still left with the other one -- Players.

you forgot our biggest problem.....Woodward?

 

[Member 113277]

TLDR. However, I believe a strong contributing factor with this squad is poor fitness levels compared to some competing teams. That was a hangover from previous regimes.

I believe that Ole exhausted them with a pressing game and they are burnt out.

A proper fitness regime, starting with the 2019-2020 pre-season prep should address that issue - if the team under performs, then other conclusions will stand out clearly.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

I hated Jose and I had to just watch his tenure at United as it happened because there is nothing more I can do.

However, I have always said his 2nd season placement was good enough to win a title in any era except for the deep competition and class that is spread around the PL in these last couple years.

If this was 2009 - Jose would be leaving with his traditional 2nd year victory before dying off in his 3rd year - but it simply isn't all that easy any more.

Well done Jose - tried to provide a short term victory for us but ultimately was the wrong decision by Woodward to go from one manager with tactics like LVG to one like Jose.

 

[MrSingh2002]

Yes I agree. It was a great achievement and we should've gave Mourinho whoever he wanted in that summer before his 3rd season.

We should've gave him atleast one more CB and got rid of what he felt was deadwood.

 

[Lee565]

Mourinho gets no sympathy from me, he made us weaker going into this season, he let go of Blind and Ibrahimovic.

Blind was a good organizer at the back and a back 3 of Smalling, Lindelof and Blind could have been something really good.

As for Ibrahimovic, sorry but I would have still took a newly fit Ibra over Lukaku this season, Ibrahimovic would have still got the same amount of goals as what Lukaku has this season if not more, definitely set up more goals and is the type of leader character we have sorely missed in the dressing room and on the field this season when things have been really tough, I would have liked to have seen a strike partnership of him and Sanchez.

We then made ourselves a little more weaker by getting rid of Fellaini which I could understand if Solskjear had the intention of playing are more attacking and dominant style of football but it's been a Mourinho type of style for months now and could have done with Fellaini in certain games.

Come this summer I expect to see us become even weaker if we are getting rid of Herrera, Mata and Sanchez all basically on a free when these players are better than players that will more than likely being staying at the club and could at least have got us decent transfer fees and if it is the case then next season will be more gruelling than this one.

 

[Z1L3]

Are you a 14 year old?

I'd swap all two of Mourinho's third-tier trophies for being in a title race again.

1. Attacking the person and not the argument is the weakest form of argument.
2. What you would do is irrelevant.