Formation Tweak vs Southampton

Lentwood

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I know it can be difficult to know exactly how much the sending off changed our approach to this game but it struck me that Ole had tweaked the positions of our attackers, even before the red card.

It looked to me like Ole had asked the wide forwards to play much narrow, in contrast to recent weeks when he has gone on record as saying he has asked them to play wider. We have heard people talking about “underlapping runs from the full-backs” and “the Man City goal” but it seemed like we completely did away with that last night after going two games without scoring from open play.

It was noticeable in our first attacking action (pre-red). Shaw picked up the ball and drove forwards and Rashford made a very concentrated effort NOT to go outside of Shaw. We lost the ball and I thought “that looked different” and then again, a few seconds later we tried to work the ball forward down the right and we almost had three forwards in a line, playing like an old-school front three.

Then obviously when the lad got sent off, it became even more noticeable. Just look at the goals and look how many players we had in the box. Rashford’s goal is a good example. All three of our forwards are in the penalty area at the same time. It’s Geeewood who pulls it back to Rashford who is right in the centre of the goal and tucks it away nicely. Again, Rashford has had criticism for NOT getting into those positions, so I thought it interesting he ended up in a classic #9 position there.

This also appeared to have the added effect of giving AWB and Shaw the opportunity to cross the ball more. If they are making underlapping runs it can be hard to get them into proper crosses positions. Here, we saw that if you have bodies in the box and the delivery is a good one, you don’t have to try to be incredibly clever about where you cross from, as long as you don’t start getting tempted to chuck them in from TOO deep.

It would be interesting to see if one of the posters who like to analyse the games have any stats on average positions or heat-maps for our forwards? I could be totally wrong, it just looked to the eye that we had definitely asked the forwards to play narrower and be more present in the penalty area.

If Ole didn’t ask them to do this, I certainly feel he should! Football can all become very clever-clever at times but sometimes when you’re playing against a low-block, overwhelming the opposition with bodies and getting a lucky bounce can earn you the breakthrough you need. You won’t get that if you have one CF marshalled by three CBs and two good finishers stuck out wide with chalk on their boots!

Any thoughts? Anybody more skilled than me willing to do some analysis?
 

Lentwood

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Didn’t the red happen after 2 minutes?
Yes it did, and that's part of my point really - there's a few ways you can interpret what I thought I saw, hence me asking if anybody had done any analysis.

You could either view it that -;

* We started much narrower and continued that after the red card
* We started as normal and the early red meant we went narrower
* We didn't go narrower at all and the average position of our forwards was similar to any game were we are playing against a low-block

I suppose the Everton game might be more conclusive to see whether we have changed something.
 

fps

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Yes good spot. It gave the full-backs space to do what modern full backs, actually scrap that, full backs, do, and the strikers could get in there. The sending off helped!
 

No Spring Chicken

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I think you're right, I think he wanted the fullbacks to be on the outside and other attackers to play closer to the 18 yard box. Ole did say in his post match interview that he'd asked Shaw to do more crossing recently, though he didnt elaborate on that. I think the only difference the red card made is that it allowed both our full backs to continually attack at the same time because the counter attack just wasn't a concern for us. But in terms of positioning & shape, I don't think we upped and changed plan as soon as the red card happened. I think we carried on with what we had planned, just with more players committed to every attack.
 
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RashyForPM

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We certainly overloaded the box last night. Players like Fred and Bruno would instead shift out wide to provide the width while lads like AWB, Martial and Donny would get into the box to score goals. Another thing I liked was Cavani stayed put in and around the box for once; he is a good link-up player, but goalscoring is what he has made a world class career out of.

Even Maguire played as an auxiliary CM, trying to play penetrative passes into the box while the man normally tasked with that role, Bruno, got into the action when he wasn’t out wide and looked for goals. This bit was made easier by the fact that Southampton carried minimal threat all game due to the red, but it’s an adjustment Ole decided to make and it well and truly paid off.

All in all, it was a tactical masterclass by Ole. I criticised him for his set up against Sheff Utd and Arsenal but this was truly magnificent managing. 10 men or not, Ole has found a viable tactic in home games against mid-table to relegation battling sides. Get the team in the box and play 15 yards higher up the pitch. Put it this way, a 10 man Southampton would probably still get a result against Sheff Utd.
 

tomaldinho1

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Sorry but if anyone is suggesting they noticed a tactical shift within 79 seconds after kick off, going to have to call it as BS.

The positive yesterday is we were generally good in front of goal when shots were available and a number of players hopefully got some confidence back. There’s nothing tactical to take away from the game though because it was just non stop attack versus defence and ball after ball into their box - enjoy the win but I feel it’s illogical to read into the tactics too much given situation. I’m certain Ole isn’t letting the players read into it too much and is getting them focused for Everton.
 

Borys

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@Borys I’ve seen you do some really detailed analysis of our tactics in games. Did you notice anything different last night about how we attacked?
I will take a deep dive on that but we played totally different vs Southampton than vs in Sheffield.
1. Southampton defended very deep almost like a one line of defense (Sheffield played two lines of defense what made it much more difficult to create for us)
2. We played structured formation with "negative double pivot" spreading the ball out wide - especially first half, McTominay on the right, Fred on the left. This is typical for McFred who stay close to each other and in the same area. When we play Pogba and Matic, they tend to drift around and don't really play as a pair, so IMO it's even more difficult to control a game.
3. Shaw and Wan Bissaka were pushing high but that's not unusual, the difference was we moved the ball quickly from side to side. We also tend to cross more with Cavani in the side.
4. Big difference was Bruno staying in the middle all game, which again is what happens when we play McFred (and no Pogba). This might have been the reason why Southampton defense was so condensed in the middle and left a lot of space on the wings.

Red card played big role but key was that Southampton looked like a fish our of water when defending so deep, which was obviously forced as they knew they couldn't press with 10 men.
We played the ball much faster, took fewer touches than usual (even commentator at one point said Ole is screaming from the touchline to take fewer touches), and had good structure. Fred and McTominay provided good outlets in the middle (big difference), while Shaw and Wan Bissaka on the wings (no difference - just growing confidence).
 

Lentwood

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I will take a deep dive on that but we played totally different vs Southampton than vs in Sheffield.
1. Southampton defended very deep almost like a one line of defense (Sheffield played two lines of defense what made it much more difficult to create for us)
2. We played structured formation with "negative double pivot" spreading the ball out wide - especially first half, McTominay on the right, Fred on the left. This is typical for McFred who stay close to each other and in the same area. When we play Pogba and Matic, they tend to drift around and don't really play as a pair, so IMO it's even more difficult to control a game.
3. Shaw and Wan Bissaka were pushing high but that's not unusual, the difference was we moved the ball quickly from side to side. We also tend to cross more with Cavani in the side.
4. Big difference was Bruno staying in the middle all game, which again is what happens when we play McFred (and no Pogba). This might have been the reason why Southampton defense was so condensed in the middle and left a lot of space on the wings.

Red card played big role but key was that Southampton looked like a fish our of water when defending so deep, which was obviously forced as they knew they couldn't press with 10 men.
We played the ball much faster, took fewer touches than usual (even commentator at one point said Ole is screaming from the touchline to take fewer touches), and had good structure. Fred and McTominay provided good outlets in the middle (big difference), while Shaw and Wan Bissaka on the wings (no difference - just growing confidence).
Great stuff, I look forward to the “deep dive”!

I said after the Sheffield Utd game that Fernandes caused us issues dropping far too deep and basically chasing the ball all over the pitch. Interesting to see the difference when he is more disciplined.
 
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Sorry but if anyone is suggesting they noticed a tactical shift within 79 seconds after kick off, going to have to call it as BS.

The positive yesterday is we were generally good in front of goal when shots were available and a number of players hopefully got some confidence back. There’s nothing tactical to take away from the game though because it was just non stop attack versus defence and ball after ball into their box - enjoy the win but I feel it’s illogical to read into the tactics too much given situation. I’m certain Ole isn’t letting the players read into it too much and is getting them focused for Everton.
It was definitely visible, though. Shaw and Wan-Bissaka were playing much higher than they normally do, and all three forwards were tucking in and playing in the box. I'm not going to say it was a tactical tweak after the red card because it happened so early, but there was obviously a much much more attacking setup in place compared to normal games, basically a 2-2-6 shape with the ball.

No one's going to say (hopefully) this extreme gung-ho shape is how we should be playing in every game. But the basic concept of getting the forwards operating narrower while the full backs stretch play is a good one, especially with Shaw in the form he's in.
 

Lentwood

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It was definitely visible, though. Shaw and Wan-Bissaka were playing much higher than they normally do, and all three forwards were tucking in and playing in the box. I'm not going to say it was a tactical tweak after the red card because it happened so early, but there was obviously a much much more attacking setup in place compared to normal games, basically a 2-2-6 shape with the ball.

No one's going to say (hopefully) this extreme gung-ho shape is how we should be playing in every game. But the basic concept of getting the forwards operating narrower while the full backs stretch play is a good one, especially with Shaw in the form he's in.
This was my point. I even say in the OP that I have no idea whether it was a pre or post red card tactic but it was noticeable how narrow the forwards where all night. Massively different from Arsenal, Sheffield Utd and Fulham when they played very wide.

For me, I want my best finishers in the box and I want my full backs crossing the ball. Whatever we did yesterday really worked in that respect.
 

Danillaco

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I think it's the way we could of two things happened: We had a reliable fast paced CB, think of a fit Bailly with a consistent run of games, and a proper CDM to allow us not having to use Fred and McT to cover our defenders. FBs were high up in the pitch, Shaw with his brilliant usual this season, and AWB having a lot of runs and good crosses in.

Hopefully this gives the guys confidence.
 

PJS007

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Biggest tweak was leaving Pogba out! Far more direct and quicker moving forward without him slowing everything down. I know he has been playing better individually but think as a team we are better without him.
 

b82REZ

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Biggest tweak was leaving Pogba out! Far more direct and quicker moving forward without him slowing everything down. I know he has been playing better individually but think as a team we are better without him.
This has been the reality of Pogba for a while now.

Individual brilliance aside, he does create an issue when we have to accommodate him in the starting lineup. His form over the last few weeks has made him undroppable, however we perform much better as a team when he is omitted.

Drawing tactical analysis of this game is difficult though. The circumstances of the sending off meant the game was essentially over in the first 90 seconds. Soton we're hoping for damage limitations and thankfully we put them to the sword.

It was refreshing to see us be so ruthless, it's an aspect of our game we've been missing for a long while now. Even in Fergie's last few years we never punished teams like we did on Tuesday.

Hopefully the brace for Martial and assist for Greenwood give them some much needed confidence and we can crack to solidify 2nd and hopefully push City.
 

Red Royal

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I dont think any of us can know for sure if this was planned, because 79 seconds is such a small samplesize for the game. If planned then good on Ole and the coaching staff; if not then we may have just had an amazingly good opportunity to try this against 10 men which we can hopefully take to the next game where a team sits back. I have no coaching experience but struggle to see why we haven't tried it previously against the likes of Sheff United, maybe it is a confidence thing. I dont recall seeing AWB getting into the box like he was on a few occasions... well actually he did versus Arsenal so maybe it is tactical and not just due to the sending off. Either way, hope it continues