Because we’re talking about playing attacking football, and the potential of France to do that more than they have. By the way, you’re aware Italy didn’t win the World Cup in 1990, right?
France - Euro 2021 Discussion
- Thread starter BusbyMalone
- Start date
I mean that’s fair. I do enjoy watching them as well, but I can’t get over the feeling that they could be so much more explosive under a different coach. It’s disappointing, really.
My bad it was Klinsmann and Voller Germany. And France doesn't have the players to control games, the strength of the team is in their defense and fast break.
Am not convinced yet that they are going to win the tournament. I still think this might be one of those years where there's a little bit of a surprise (well, not huge): could be Italy or Belgium's time with the Netherlands as the (very) dark horse. Czechs will also be there late on.
As for today, I can see Wales going out
As for today, I can see Wales going out
No, it’s the choice of the manager to play that way, compact and hitting on the break, often ceding possession to opponents. They absolutely have the players to dominate games. Deschamps has been criticised a lot for it but he doesn’t care, he’s stated that he’s only concerned with results.
Difficult to win back to back international tournaments. How many times has that happened in Europe? Twice?
Edit: Can think of three off the top of my head. France 20 years ago, Spain in 08, 10,12 and the Germans in the 70s. France and Germany both had the massive advantage of having one of their tournament wins at home. Spain did 3 in a row on foreign soil (including becoming the first European team to win a WC outside of Europe) which shows how good they were.
Last edited:
No, France isn't dominating games against a team like Germany that has the likes of Kroos, Gundogan or Kimmich moving the ball, that's their bread and butter. Similarly Bayern didn't dominate possession against Barcelona in 2013, they still thumped them because they played to their comparative strength. Any decent manager will recognize his comparative strength and weaknesses, he will base the tactics on that.
I think it’s partly down to Deschamps philosophy and priorities though. For example, teams that want to keep the ball are trying to sign Houssem Auoar. I’m not sure if Maxcence Caqueret is quite ready yet, but he too is suited to keeping the ball. Dechamps doesn’t see the same value in him. He’d prefer Rabiot or Tolisso or even Moussa Sissoko for Christs sake. He probably sees Auoar as too weak.
Aouar has been subpar this season and Caqueret is definitely not ready. He prefers players that are actually performing with their clubs or have shown something at international level.
I think you are getting confused. Possession-based football and attacking football are not the same thing. France have the players to play a more direct and attacking style than they do. That much is not debatable.
I responded to a point about domination, how do you quantify domination? I'm not getting confused because France dominates 95% of their opponents, the only times it doesn't happen is when a team is better at keeping the ball.
I’m saying that you don’t have to dominate possession in every game to play an exciting, attacking brand of football. Obviously you do need to have a degree of possession though, and France ranked 20th out of all the teams in the last World Cup in possession. If you think they’re incapable with their personnel of bettering that, and they have to play Mourinho-lite football to succeed, then that’s where we disagree.
Playing two pivots in Xabi Alonso and Busquets and no strikers to control the middle of the park and annoy all neutrals
Also it's the first game of the tournament against a tough opponent and they never really looked like losing and appeared to have another couple of gears if they needed them. Not to mention that with a better timed run or slightly quicker pass it could have 2 or 3 nil.
I got the impression watching it that if Germany scored, France would have stepped it up a couple of notches. They'll qualify handily enough and we'll see what they're really made of
in the knock-outs.
France had the second attack in the tournament. So we basically go back to the previous point, you don't care about attacking football which has for goal to score goals but about possession. You would need to combine the first three possession teams at the World Cup to outscore France.
No. It’s about a style of football that is entertaining. I’m not talking about possession above all else. Go look at Mourinho’s best teams. Did they score a lot goals? Yes. So why was he criticised?
Thanks for the useless stats - thankfully football is not baseball where you rattle on stats to make a point.
I've been watching major tournaments since 1982 and Spain 2010 was boring AF.
Prime Mourinho wasn't criticized, he was widely considered as the best manager in the world and possibly one of the greatest. Mourinho was later criticized for his attitude when he wasn't as successful anymore and the fact that he stopped being pragmatic and became dogmatic.
That's the point, Germany for all their current problems , are still an experimented tournament team and the WC 2014 champions. End of a cycle, true, but they still have great players and a fantastic GK .
People also shouldn't forget that both teams are in the group of death with no room for errors. A pragmatic approach was required.
You have Theo Hernandez actually
You absolutely could play in a more attacking, aggressive manner. It just doesn't make a lot of sense when you have those players.
This may be boring to watch, but this team playing like this lost 1 game in the last 2 tournaments, in extra time, in an all time fluke. And without that loss would be reigning World and European champions
And they didn't have the one man wrecking crew that is Mbappé in 2016 either
False, he was criticised whilst successful because of his boring style of play. Which is not to say that he’s not a great manager, but his defensive emphasis is dull. The point is that it’s not to do with how many goals you score, you can still score goals playing ‘park the bus and counter,’ as Deschamps’ France sadly do.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp..../jose-mourinho-roman-abramovich-chelsea-style
Hernandez rejected a selection for France. I don't know if eventually he picked Spain or France or no one.
2015 isn't Mourinho's best teams, the press and people criticized him post Real Madrid.
Wasn't he in the provisional squad?
I don't remember, maybe.
They had almost no opportunities on the counter. Germany had more, and France won just because an autogoal. Scoring in a clear offside says nothing, without the VAR it would have been stopped long before. They were solid in defense, true, but their performance was miles away from what they can and they are expected to give. 4 shots in 90 minutes. 1 shot on target.
Spain is by far, the European team that has scored more goals in the last 10 years only after Germany. Even after the decline after the EURO2012 Spain keeps scoring a lot of goals.
You can take a look the WC/EC qualifiers or the Nations Cup since 2008, it is about 70 games, and Spain is a consistent top3 scorer on every single qualifier (top 2 in the aggregate).
You are mixing tournaments, in only happened in EURO2012.
In that EURO Spain scored 12 goals (top scorer in absolute terms and in by match average terms), winning 4-0 against Italy in the final with an attacking festival and playing with Busquets + Xabi Alonso and without a striker (Silva played there).
Superb offensive display. Biggest victory in a EC/WF final. Nobody else has scored 4 goals in a EC final. Nobody has won by such a massive difference in any WC/EC final.
It is "annoying" to you... ok. What exactly did you find annoying about the best attack of that Euro and at least one of the best performances in the history of national football finals?
In the WC, Villa was always in the line-up. In the final against Netherlands Villa+Pedro were in the 11.
I'm surprised to see so many criticizing France tbh. It's well known at this point that dominant, free flowing attacking sides are tough to form in International competitions because while teams might have a bunch of talent in those positions, it takes time playing together and being on the same wavelength as a group without looking disjointed or exposing yourself at the back. It's much easier to set up a more robust, hard working team and allow the attackers freedom without committing the entire system to it.
Personally I still enjoy watching France play, and it doesn't seem like Deschamps restricts his players movement as much as he just naturally selects a more defensive team in midfield/at the back.They remind me more of those early Madrid Mourinho teams that scored a bunch of goals being deadly on the counter.
Personally I still enjoy watching France play, and it doesn't seem like Deschamps restricts his players movement as much as he just naturally selects a more defensive team in midfield/at the back.They remind me more of those early Madrid Mourinho teams that scored a bunch of goals being deadly on the counter.
This is about the players they have more than anything else
They simply don't have the technically superb, quick low center-of-gravity players Spain was full of. Varane and Kimpembe are far from great on the ball, Lucas and Pavard too, Kante, Rabiot, Tolisso, Matuidi, etc...
They are full of pacey players who are at their best in open space and defenders who are best and most comfortable defending in their box. It's a team built for transitions, not high possession. They don't press much because they don't want to take too many risks knowing they can counter from deep just fine against anyone because they have Mbappé and Pogba
They simply don't have the technically superb, quick low center-of-gravity players Spain was full of. Varane and Kimpembe are far from great on the ball, Lucas and Pavard too, Kante, Rabiot, Tolisso, Matuidi, etc...
They are full of pacey players who are at their best in open space and defenders who are best and most comfortable defending in their box. It's a team built for transitions, not high possession. They don't press much because they don't want to take too many risks knowing they can counter from deep just fine against anyone because they have Mbappé and Pogba
We literally don't press at all when we sit back.
Deschamps isn't actively looking for us to counter-attack.
He wants us to stay in place and seize whatever opportunities we can get off it.
We're not actively trying to force them into a mistake, just waiting for them to make one on their own.
So yea it is an insanely boring way of playing, especially when you go down that road at the smallest lead you can get against decent opposition.
Deschamps isn't actively looking for us to counter-attack.
He wants us to stay in place and seize whatever opportunities we can get off it.
We're not actively trying to force them into a mistake, just waiting for them to make one on their own.
So yea it is an insanely boring way of playing, especially when you go down that road at the smallest lead you can get against decent opposition.
When Portugal played the "beautiful football" they won nothing, nada, then they got a coach which I can't stand and they won an Euro against France which should had scored a few and end up to lose, then they won a friendly competition which I forgot the name. The time of total football (Brazil) is over for a long time. Anyway if Portugal plays defense like 2016 versus Germany or France I want them to be hammered so bad the Portuguese government will have another lockdown in place in shame, then hopeful they will sack the coach.
This French team aren't even that bad to watch. By comparison the 98 one was far worse. Beat mighty Paraguay on Golden goal, Italy on pens and needed Thuram to score the only two goals he will ever score for France to comeback against mighty Croatia. The second goal was absolute hail mary shot from nowhere and it was with his weak foot too. 
I think France have traditionally build their international success on their midfield and defense solidity, I don't see why should it be changed. You just have to look at their footballing culture and the type of players they generally produce. They have excellent CBs who are fast and powerful but fairly limited on the ball, their fullbacks are more of the defensive type too. Midfielders are the functional types and defensive minded. They typically rely on a maverick type player in offense, and fast counters with their pacey strikers.
I think France have traditionally build their international success on their midfield and defense solidity, I don't see why should it be changed. You just have to look at their footballing culture and the type of players they generally produce. They have excellent CBs who are fast and powerful but fairly limited on the ball, their fullbacks are more of the defensive type too. Midfielders are the functional types and defensive minded. They typically rely on a maverick type player in offense, and fast counters with their pacey strikers.
Last edited:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.thenationalnews.com/sport/mourinho-is-happy-to-be-hated-1.542429
Again, false. He has been criticised for his defensive tactics and called ‘anti-football’ throughout his career. Here’s another example from his most successful team, Inter.
That's stretching it, you are basically digging an article talking about the catalan press after a defeat against a Mourinho coached team. It's a bit like digging an article about Tiki Taka being dull as dishwater.
Now answer this question, was Mourinho widely rated as one of the best manager in the world in 2010?
Honestly people can have all the criticism they want to have, no team will ever be perfect in people's eyes, even the perfect one. It's the same conversation as in 2018, and we all know that Deschamps is not going to change, nor should he; this is what his philosophy is and he's been backed up by the results.
I absolutely enjoyed yesterday's game, even though I hate watching France play because there's nothing that makes me more involved emotionally in sports. I also like that it's one of the first times I can remember in a while where we pretty much know the starting XI from the get-go, with the only real question mark between Rabiot and Tolisso but Rabiot did fine against Germany. I think there's plenty of beauty in their game, but it's peppered on a philosophy of discipline, because Deschamps basically played in a typical Italian style of football and it's reflected in his philosophy, but he is still far more offensive on the counter than a typical Italian side IMO; France still went for it after the lead. He also happens to have players he trusts to bring their own spice to the mix and it's what you see in moments that impact the game.
It's also the beautiful thing about football, some love the possession games, others the defending, some the counter-attacking, etc. I personally find Tiki-Taka football that Spain was playing extremely boring, way more than what I see from France currently. But I can see why people would appreciate it because you love to see players like Iniesta and Xavi play for example.
I think France is plenty exciting, obviously I'm biased, but I think we can play different styles based on different teams/situations. We have a rigid philosophy, but it's more malleable than other dogmatic teams because we have the players that can make something out of nothing and capable of playing with different styles. You also have exciting jokers off the bench, like Ousmane Dembele, that can come against tired legs and completely change France's approach on the offense with him alone when he's up for it. Then between Benzema and Giroud you have two different forwards that can do similar things as target-men but one is more gifted in the build-up phase while the other is a bigger presence in occupying defenders and picking up scraps in the box.
I absolutely enjoyed yesterday's game, even though I hate watching France play because there's nothing that makes me more involved emotionally in sports. I also like that it's one of the first times I can remember in a while where we pretty much know the starting XI from the get-go, with the only real question mark between Rabiot and Tolisso but Rabiot did fine against Germany. I think there's plenty of beauty in their game, but it's peppered on a philosophy of discipline, because Deschamps basically played in a typical Italian style of football and it's reflected in his philosophy, but he is still far more offensive on the counter than a typical Italian side IMO; France still went for it after the lead. He also happens to have players he trusts to bring their own spice to the mix and it's what you see in moments that impact the game.
It's also the beautiful thing about football, some love the possession games, others the defending, some the counter-attacking, etc. I personally find Tiki-Taka football that Spain was playing extremely boring, way more than what I see from France currently. But I can see why people would appreciate it because you love to see players like Iniesta and Xavi play for example.
I think France is plenty exciting, obviously I'm biased, but I think we can play different styles based on different teams/situations. We have a rigid philosophy, but it's more malleable than other dogmatic teams because we have the players that can make something out of nothing and capable of playing with different styles. You also have exciting jokers off the bench, like Ousmane Dembele, that can come against tired legs and completely change France's approach on the offense with him alone when he's up for it. Then between Benzema and Giroud you have two different forwards that can do similar things as target-men but one is more gifted in the build-up phase while the other is a bigger presence in occupying defenders and picking up scraps in the box.
It’s not comparable to tiki taka at all, no one has ever called tiki-taka ‘anti-football’
That’s not digging, that’s what people have been saying about Mourinho all along if you were paying attention, he’s a football pragmatist, not a purist. That’s what Deschamps is also. Those types of teams are respected but not loved by neutrals. That’s the difference.
Re you question, he was (and is, despite his fall), but that’s not the actual point of the discussion.
Every single style is criticized by someone, the point was whether Mourinho was widely criticized? He wasn't, he was widely praised and sometimes criticized by people who think that they have a monopoly on what football is, the same happened to Spain and Tiki Taka.
Now think what you want about tactical approaches, it only concerns yourself.
Sorry for butting in again, but personally I consider Tiki-Taka anti-football, there's nothing more anti-climactic than a team passing the ball around semi-needlessly, with the sole purpose of not letting the other team have it, and hardly capitalizing on actual openings for fear of losing possession. It makes far more sense than considering Mourinho's style anti-football (which while I'm not a fan, is vastly exaggerated as his teams scored tons of goals), because he lets the other team come at him, he's not looking to dominate possession. It's not to say Tiki-Taka isn't absolutely brilliant and impressive in its own right, but it doesn't make for entertaining games either to me and many others.
You and I don't speak for neutrals, I know plenty of people who have nothing to do with France and enjoy watching the team but I'm not going as far as that means neutrals love France. People like different things, I don't think any argument is going to convince one side or the other in that respect.
You can gloat about Spain all you want. They could not score against a small team the other day and don’t look like they are close to winning something.
France is world champion, last Euro finalist are favorites to win it this year and just won against one of the best team of the tournament while Germany was playing at home.
Saying Germany had most and best chances is just looking at stats. They did not have a sniff. You can have all the possession in the world, if you are toothless, it is worth nothing.
Saying offsides goals are worth nothing but counting all Germans half-chances as opportunities is a bit rich as offsides as very close calls more often then not. While Germany wasn’t threatening at all.
But I am not expecting to convince you.
I think Spain can win this Euros, no doubt. France are the heavy favourites though
With Morata in attack ? I don’t think they are good enough. They can play nice and all but you need cutting edge as well. Plenty of teams seems better : France, England, Belgium, Germany, even Portugal.