France could be more exciting to watch, but they're hardly bad to watch. Just a well set up team that lets its stars have big moments or create something. I enjoy watching them.
France - Euro 2021 Discussion
- Thread starter BusbyMalone
- Start date
It’s semantics I guess. I personally always found Spain, and Barcelona, highly entertaining, and never understood the suggestion that they were boring. They were the ultimate level of football for me, and they don’t need to create a chance to entertain me, them manipulating the ball between 3 players in the space of a phone booth was mesmerising to me. People like different things, but I don’t get how anyone can’t be entertained by Iniesta and David Silva doing their thing. It’s literal beauty.
But that’s the point, France have the firepower to be a Brazil rather than a cynical Italy or Germany. It’s disappointing for a neutral but obviously fans won’t care as much, they just want the bacon, which is fair enough.
I agree
Spain were the most boring WC champions ever. They scored what, 7 goals in the whole tournament? The same amount Germany put past Brazil in one match. Literal beauty my arse.
To each their own I guess.
Spain 08 were better to watch than 10 albeit didn't have the level of control the latter did
The 2008 team was the most exciting version but for me their 2 most impressive displays were on the semifinals in 2010 against Germany (where they reduced them to nothing) and on the final vs Italy in 2012.
One of the best international sides ever regardless of the way you like football to be played it's nonsense to dismiss that as boring. The only teams that on their peak caused them problems had to be ultra defensive.
That's why they are labelled as boring. Because they were much better than their opponents. And I am not their biggest fan, particularly not part of the Barcelona cult, but they are amongst the top 5 NT winners in history, at least looking to their period of dominance.
Spain for me personally were the dullest EC and WC winners ever. Death by a thousand passes. Snore fest.
Personally there hasn't been a truly great international team to watch since brasil / france in the 2000s.
Personally there hasn't been a truly great international team to watch since brasil / france in the 2000s.
You couldn't be more wrong.
They're extremely focused, streetwise, and I'd say tactically and mentally stronger than in 2018. They have no real weakness and their performance today was excellent. The score only tells a part of the story, they made Germany (which is never to be underestimated in a tournament) look like a second-rate team, away. Their only enemy is themselves.
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I don't know if they complement each other well. It is more like Kante is making Pogba look better because he is great at what he is doing.
Pogba was playing himself such as overplaying, ball hogging, half ass defending at times. When Germans pressed in 2nd half, they found many line breaking thru balls for a period of time. It was because Kante was being alone to cover. And, it was when France didn't even leave much space. My point is Pogba was still liability in defending as much as he is with United and Kante would make most players better, not the other way around.
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France was disappointing to me today... they have such a quality squad... and... 4 shots (1 on target) in 90 minutes. I expect way more from them, and they will probably show that along the championship.
This group stage with almost guaranteed 3 spots on the next round is making some teams to be a little sloppy... and France can handle to save some energy for future fixtures.
I think we will see more positive football from France in the knock-outs.
2008 - 6 games. 12-3 goals. Amazing games against Russia (4-1, 3-0) and the final against Germany (1-0), incredible short result for what we saw
2012 - 6 games. 12-1 goals. Biggest difference in a EC final, 4-0 against Italy in another great display.
And i'm going to continue with the WC....
Shots:
21-5 against Switzerland in group phase
16-5 against Honduras in group phase
6-6 against Chile in group phase (by far the worst performance on the tournament)
13-7 against Portugal in 1/8
11-7 against Paraguay in 1/4
15-4 against Germany in 1/2
19-13 against Netherlands in the final
And Spain wasn't a friend of shooting from long range...
To put it in perspective... France had 4 shots today. Only the game against Chile had less shots than today's France-Germany. (4-10), only that game had less shots that England-Croatia (8-8).
3 tournaments... 19 games played, 32-6 in goals. (10 knock out matches, with 14-0 in goals, this is specially shocking) against...
3 - Italy
2 - Germany, Portugal, Russia
1 - France, Netherlands, Croatia, Ukraine, Sweden, Switzerland, Chile, Paraguay, Ireland and Honduras
The boring part of that Spain was that it was far superior with the ball and the opponents were always superdefensive either by choice of uncapability (i don't think that Germany did it on purpose).
I would have preferred a more positive mindset from the rivals, but...
This group stage with almost guaranteed 3 spots on the next round is making some teams to be a little sloppy... and France can handle to save some energy for future fixtures.
I think we will see more positive football from France in the knock-outs.
EC
2008 - 6 games. 12-3 goals. Amazing games against Russia (4-1, 3-0) and the final against Germany (1-0), incredible short result for what we saw
2012 - 6 games. 12-1 goals. Biggest difference in a EC final, 4-0 against Italy in another great display.
And i'm going to continue with the WC....
2010 - 7 games. 8-2 goals. By far the least entertaining championship Spain played. All games against ultradefensive sides. You can remember the final and how Netherlands played... or you can remember the semifinal against Germany. Germany scored 16 goals in that tournament, but they barely stepped into the Spanish field. 15 shots against 4. That says many things. You might think that Spain was boring, however when I was watching the match I was just thinking if Germany was going to try anything besides surviving until the pens.
Shots:
21-5 against Switzerland in group phase
16-5 against Honduras in group phase
6-6 against Chile in group phase (by far the worst performance on the tournament)
13-7 against Portugal in 1/8
11-7 against Paraguay in 1/4
15-4 against Germany in 1/2
19-13 against Netherlands in the final
And Spain wasn't a friend of shooting from long range...
To put it in perspective... France had 4 shots today. Only the game against Chile had less shots than today's France-Germany. (4-10), only that game had less shots that England-Croatia (8-8).
3 tournaments... 19 games played, 32-6 in goals. (10 knock out matches, with 14-0 in goals, this is specially shocking) against...
3 - Italy
2 - Germany, Portugal, Russia
1 - France, Netherlands, Croatia, Ukraine, Sweden, Switzerland, Chile, Paraguay, Ireland and Honduras
The boring part of that Spain was that it was far superior with the ball and the opponents were always superdefensive either by choice of uncapability (i don't think that Germany did it on purpose).
I would have preferred a more positive mindset from the rivals, but...
I'd agree with that.
Spain played some great stuff on their to winning the Euros and World Cup, though it was not exactly exciting to watch them play with their opponents who seldom came up with answers how to play against them, most of the games involved Spain dominating for long periods and waiting for their opponents to slip up so they could pounce. Even Fergie couldn't stop it when we lost two CL finals in 3 years to Barca. It was a bit like Floyd Mayweather in his prime, technically superb to the point it was almost boring because his opponent had no answer to him tactically.
Barcelona and Spain are vastly different, barcelona were significantly more direct and adventurous. Spain were very cynical and negative, to the point where they would refuse to exploit counter attacks when they had the opportunity but had the lead. What I won't get is anyone that liked Spain but doesn't like a team that base his game on solid defense, fast breaks and intricate play here and there.
This current french team doesn't have more talent than the great German and Italian teams and isn't even close to the great brazilian teams. Also all of these nations based their teams on less clubs.
The difference with Spain is simply the quality of their play. As I said, entertainment in football isn’t limited to chance creation. People talk about ball domination as if it’s the simplest thing to do. To see how they kept possession, often under intense pressure, to see two midfielders try, and fail, to get the ball off of Iniesta is entertaining.
And speaking of defensive, that’s what all their opponents did. They barely felt worthy of sharing a football pitch with them, and if a team dared to take the game to them, they would in all likelihood be destroyed.
Most of their passing was not between their centre backs either. What made it so good was simply the quality to me. No other team could keep the ball in the same manner, and I’m not sure it had even been ever done before. The trust they put in their own ability on the ball was remarkable.
And I agree, Barcelona were different, but many posters were calling them boring too. The only thing that was boring was that they were much better than anyone else. They created chances all game, and a certain quality of chance too, not hopeful percentage passes. Nobody could play football like them, and they scored shitloads of goals, yet were apparently boring.
But what you are decribing in your first paragraph is as subjective as it gets and has little to do with tactics or even football. One could easily make the point about how he is entertained by how Pogba is going to start a counter, how Mbappé is going to handle the way teams tryi to stop him, how Griezmann is going to link up the attack and the midfield. Many people like myself like the defensive side of football, how teams trap opponents, how they nullify their strength.
I personally love to see Atletico, particularly recorded games where I can pause and see how the defense moves and compensates, on the other end I absolutely hate games that are "free flowing" more often than not these games are a tactical disgrace with players failing to apply their assignments over and over.
As for Spain, the issue for me was the fact that they weren't actually creative. They had one way to play football regardless of the opposition and they would purposely waste time when they were one goal up. Barcelona used to do the same thing in CL away games under Guardiola. Deschamps is a cynical coach but he adapts to the opposition and France won't play the exact same game against everyone, some games France will play their own game and other games they will play a game that annoys the opposition.
Thought France did a half-arsed performance but still won comfortably. Can't see any team beating them in this tournament. Major favorites!
Because it's subjective. Nothing wrong appreciating the incredible technical quality required to play football the way Busqets, Iniesta and Xavi managed to do for Spain. They weren't my favourite team to watch for sure but I can see why people found their football interesting. To each their own. I mean France as world champions had 39% of the ball yesterday, they too can only entertain so much given they had so little of the ball. Certainly, soaking up pressure entertains nobody. I prefer high intensity football myself, something that sets the pulse racing but people prefer different things.
This is what people always say about France. It's just how they play whereas people expect them to be all dominant due to the personnel. I think this style suits them perfectly.
I totally agree with that, there is nothing wrong about appreciating it but it works both ways, you can't say that a team has to play one particular style or put an emphasis on one particular aspect of football just to be dismissive about an other. I didn't like Spain but I have no issue with people liking it and I have never expected Spain to do anything else, it was their winning formula and they executed it at high level which is what actually matters. The only thing that could bother me is poor execution.
Definitely. Think everybody does do that though. United fans have possesion-phobia as if it's something abhorrant we should run (whereas to an extent we should embrace it, at least the ability to do it when we want). Teams that play possesion football frown upon everything else and look at defensive tactics as "anti football".
Name a World Cup winning Italian or German team with more attacking talent than this French team. Let’s go player for player.
Looked very good. Extremely compact, they'll be tough to create much against, and they'll be consistently dangerous on the break. Once ahead they managed the game well as there was no need to push on. Benzema's lifted the quality of the attacking interplay which will open up more avenues to goal. Impressive.
True and both Barcelona and Spain had to reflect their environment too. Spain operated in a one-leg knockout cup where any errors are fatal, while Barcelona played in 38-game league seasons and 17-game Champions League campaigns. Barcelona had to be set up more attacking to maximise their chances in a club environment, while Spain had to play a more risk-averse game. And you can see how Pep's Barcelona won 2 Champions Leagues in 4 seasons, while Spain won 3 out of 3 international tournaments, which reflects their approach to risk in high stakes knockout ties.
Why would I do that? No tactical approach is based on a singular positional group, Italy 1990 had the likes of Baggio, Vialli and excellent midfielders. Germany 74 had the likes of Heynckes, Muller, Netzer, Breitner and Overath.
If they win the tournament, job done.
They can step up if they need to i feel. For the first game against a big side, a win matters more than anything else.
They can step up if they need to i feel. For the first game against a big side, a win matters more than anything else.
What was boring about German World Cup winning team? They scored 18 goals and 7 in a semi-final, they were a good watch.
Germany weren't boring but they were very functional in the knockout stage, it wasn't free flowing football. They played winning international football, you could take France in 98, Italy in 2006 or even Brazil in 2002. Scolari's Brazil built their success on the back of a rock solid defensive unit, it wasn't a display of joga bonito.
What ? Hope you enjoy the goaless draw from Spain…
You are looking at stats when the match tell you another story. France scored 2 more goals that were offside and had many opportunities on counter. They were the better side by far even if stats say otherwise.
They scored first and were very solid. Deschamps aim is not to play pretty football but to win. They were very solid against one of the best team playing at home.
I've heard this theory multiple times, and it falls down in the face of actual football. If they were sitting on a comfortable 2 goal lead then sure their approach would have been fine, but they were playing a seriously subpar (by their standards) German team who they allowed to dominate possession and dictate the pace of the match for long periods, the only goal came from Germany themselves, and right up until the end France could have conceded in the face of repeated German attacks. France could very easily have drawn that game and lost 2 points.
I think that while there is a great deal of subjectivity in football, I think it’s fairly close to footballing fact that brilliant touch, technique and dribbling is enjoyable to see. With Spain, tactics aside, their actual quality was unmatched. Another team cannot adopt such tactic as simply ‘keep the ball’ under the pressure that they can keep it at even if they wanted to. I appreciate some may prefer rock and roll footy, but surely on any level, Iniesta skipping between two players then playing a one-two with Xavi in no space at all is universally seen as good to see, no?
For me, I’m not necessarily saying I was a fan of Spain’s tactics, but I absolutely loved seeing their quality. As has been said, Barcelona were a different kettle of fish. They were regularly 3 or 4 nil up by halftime, if some found that boring, fair enough, the only way I could see it as boring is some sort of anti-competition way as they were a level above. I saw them go 4-0 up in about half an hour against Bayern Munich in the CL knockouts once. They regularly battered the likes of Arsenal. It wasn’t just Rayo Vallecano they could do it to, they battered pretty much everyone. 5-0 wins in the classico and all. Front three alone getting 100 goals in a season. To dismiss them as boring seems unfair to me.
Again, with the exception of maybe Spain, ‘possession football’ to me is just ‘high quality football’ in reality. Whatever your tactics, teams try and pass a football. And many are simply not that good at it. United included. When we win despite trying, and often failing, to connect passes together - we just say we are not a possession team. City, are apparently a possession team, yet they don’t just pass the ball between their defence and score more goals and create more chances than others. They have been branded a possession team by virtue of being food at passing a football.
Barcelona were similar. They outscored everyone, and thrashed even the best teams. They are more offensive and better offensively than the so-called direct teams, who simply were not good enough to create as many chances as Barcelona.
But the point is that possession football isn't the only high quality football. Spain played to their strength which was tiki taka, not everyone finds it entertaining but it was high quality football. France are playing to their strength which is a solid defensive block and fast breaks, France doesn't have Iniesta, Xavi and Xabi Alonso controlling midfield and the players that are on the bench aren't your clinical attackers like Henry, Zidane, Wiltord and Pires in 2000, so it would be silly to go for an approach that will see you field exciting players that aren't going to make you win.
I would get your point if France were playing against nature or a style that doesn't suit the players but it's not the case.
I agree, it isn’t the only high quality type of football. But as there is only one football on the pitch, the mastery of it is the most basic type I think.
I don’t expect France to play like Spain, agreed. I’d expect them to be more direct though, as their strengths are in that area. They are an athletic team, with pace and strength. They are not short on quality either. So in their own way (different to Spain), I still feel they have the qualities to be more direct and take the game to the opposition with a greater intensity. I feel like even England are more direct and positive. I think all that is required to tip the balance is to change their full back profile. Luca Digne is a brilliant full back, for instance, but he can’t get in the team ahead of a centre half.
Ultimately, I appreciate that winning is most important. I just think France have the quality to take the game to the opposition more than they do.
Hernandez is a signifcanly better fullback than Digne though and he is at a similar level technically. I think that it's doing him a disservice to flippantly call him a centre half, on the other side you have Bayern's starting right fullback. France take the game to the opposition against teams that aren't more technical in midfield but they won't do it against teams that are better than them in that department. It's a bit like Real Madrid versus Barcelona between 2009 and 2014.
I don't really think they have a weakness. Perhaps long term they will struggle when Lloris' form starts to dip, they don't really have a top quality keeper, perhaps only Maignan.
Yea that is true and fair.
They are incredibly strong and have so much talent all over the pitch.
Can’t see them losing a game unless some player gets sent off or gives away a needless late penalty or something like that.
Can’t see them losing a game unless some player gets sent off or gives away a needless late penalty or something like that.
Though on the fullback part, I would have loved to see Ferland Mendy and moved Hernandez centrally. But it doesn't change the fabric of the team, none of France fullbacks are equivalents to Marcelo, Alba or Davies. Kurzawa would be closer to them offfensively but he can't defend to save his life and isn't close to be as good going forward.