Frank O'Farrell - In the Shadow of Busby

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Eyepopper

Lowering the tone since 2006
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I'll admit to knowing pretty much nothing about O'Farrell until I saw the documentary 'Frank O'Farrell - In the Shadow of Busby' last night.I'd recommend it to anyone that hasn't seen it.

No coincidence that it was being broadcast in the run up to a new season where David Moyes will face a similar task to O'Farrell - namely taking over from an irreplaceable, legendary manager who, while retiring from management, has stepped upstairs into a directors role and remains at the club.

Many opposition fans, and shamefully many of our own, are predicting that history will repeat itself, that it will be impossible for the new man to emerge from his predecessors shadow and that it will signal the start of a downfall for the club.

While, on the surface, the task Moyes faces seems very similar to O'Farrell, who was appointed on a 5 year contract following the sacking of Wilf McGuinness, but for anyone willing to dig a little deeper there are major differences.

The relationship between O'Farrell and Busby didn't get off to the best start - with Busby, being typically Scottish, telling O'Farrell that the salary was £12k per year and O'Farrell later learning from the Chairman that it was actually £15k and Busby was basically just trying to get him on the cheap. “It got us off on a bad note, me and Busby. He knew that I knew he wasn’t playing it straight. The trust was damaged from the start. From that moment, I didn’t trust him.”

It wasn't improved on O'Farrells first day at OT when he learned that Busby was to stay in the managers office and O'Farrell was to get the First Team Coach office. During McGuiness tenure Busby had taken the position of 'General Manager', undermining the new mans position completely.

O'Farrell confronted Busby telling him that retaining the managers office wasn't acceptable. “I told him, sorry he had to move. It was quite a thing to say. But I knew I had to make my position clear from the start.”

It also seems that Sir Matt had trouble walking away from first team affairs - “He was always about somewhere where the players could find him. After one game, he told me I shouldn’t have dropped Bobby Charlton. Obviously he said the same to Charlton, because the player was moping round the place.

“Another time he told me Martin Buchan, O’Farrell’s first signing, was responsible for letting in all these goals, when it clearly wasn’t his fault. He was interfering.”

Bubsy also approached O'Farrells wife, telling her that he was a 'stubborn bastard', and that he should ask for more help.

In the end O'Farrell was sacked after 18 months in charge and replaced by Tommy Docherty (a good friend and godfather to his son) and then the rot really set in.

While I'm no expert, overall it isn't a period that reflects well on the club or on Busby - O'Farrell ended up in a 9 month long legal battle before he received his compensation from Utd.

Busby's presence and influence was undoubtedly a factor in O'Farrells demise and, even though I didn't think he isn't overly critical in the documentary, I think he carried a huge amount of resentment after his departure - who could really blame him.

All the blame can't be laid at Sir Matts feet however. O'Farrell inherited an aging squad, many of whom were fiercely loyal to the previous manager. And despite a good start to his time in charge, the brilliance of George Best papered over many of the cracks in the team. Best was well on his way to full blown alcoholism which brought its own problems, creating a media frenzy around the player and presenting O'Farrell with the choice of dropping his best player.

O'Farrells approach to managing Best was to adopt a softly softly approach and try to help, rather than discipline the player. As some people will know trying to help an alcoholic who isn't ready for help is like banging your head against a wall, and ultimately O'Farrells management of Best created division in the squad, and the impression that there was one rule for George and another for the rest.

Personally, my impression is that O'Farrell, while a well respected and talented manager and a very decent man, simply didn't have the personality or presence to take on a job the size of Utd. Particularly when he was following a manager that built the modern club to what it was, and once his relationship with Busby soured that was curtains for him.

To coin a phrase 'only god knows' but I don't see the relationship between Moyes and Fergie being in any way similar to O'Farrell and Busby. And I also think Fergie is a very intelligent man, who will know the history - fans need to do the same. O'Farrells wars were mostly fought within the club, whereas I think the biggest challenge Moyes will face will be the fickle nature of many modern fans and the 24 hour media storm that now surrounds everything. I think Fergie and the support and culture of the club, could be among his biggest assets.

Anyhoo.... thats my tuppence on Frank O'Farrell.... the little known one time Utd manager, and still the only Irish man to have managed Manchester United.
 
After reading Dunphy's book on Busby(which is a must read), I wanted to find more out about this guy, and saw this documentary was made, but couldnt find it anywhere! Where did you find it? Would love to watch it.
 
It was broadcast on RTE2 night. Should be available on their website. Definitely worth a watch, very interesting insight into the club at the time.
 
feck, cant believe I missed it. Can't find it on the rte player or even on youtube. Balls.
 
As much of a United legend Busby is and whilst remaining grateful and respectful of everything he achieved, had he stepped away from the club completely at the end of his reign and stayed away we may not have had to wait 26 years for another title.
 
Not the first time it was on. Very interesting documentary and I agree fully that the similarities between then and now are only skin deep. No one is in any doubt over who the boss is now, he's got a very viable squad mixed with amazing youth and plenty of experience. The only source of division is rooney and that will be incomparable with Best because the fans have Moyes back over the players immediately.
 
As much of a United legend Busby is and whilst remaining grateful and respectful of everything he achieved, had he stepped away from the club completely at the end of his reign and stayed away we may not have had to wait 26 years for another title.


When Bill Shankly resigned in 1974, it was widely rumoured that he quit because he'd asked for a place on the board & the club refused. This was also the year that United were relegated just 6 years after becoming the first English club to win The European Cup. I reckon Liverpool looked at United, & what could happen if they'd kept such a powerful & influential figure as Shanks lurking in the background.
 
When Bill Shankly resigned in 1974, it was widely rumoured that he quit because he'd asked for a place on the board & the club refused. This was also the year that United were relegated just 6 years after becoming the first English club to win The European Cup. I reckon Liverpool looked at United, & what could happen if they'd kept such a powerful & influential figure as Shanks lurking in the background.

You could very well be right. Unfortunately sentiment and success are not always compatible.
 
As much of a United legend Busby is and whilst remaining grateful and respectful of everything he achieved, had he stepped away from the club completely at the end of his reign and stayed away we may not have had to wait 26 years for another title.

To be fair to Busby he basically built the club, twice, it cant have been easy trusting someone else with it.

In the end they got the appointments badly wrong. If he'd have stayed out of affairs maybe things might have turned out different for McGuinness and O'Farrell. In the case of O'Farrell I'm not sure though, his handling of Best (pissing off the rest of the squad), some of his signings and even his relationship with a player like Charlton who, although he was approaching the latter part of his career, was still a major influence, left a bit to be desired IMO.

He was also notoriously standoffish with players by all accounts, if they wanted to talk to him they apparently had to schedule an appointment.

I guess we'll never know, the only thing you can say is that neither went on to set the world of management on fire after their time at Utd.
 
Another interesting bit of info from the documentary was that Utd were looking at Jock Stein, and Don Revie as replacements for Busby when O'Farrell was appointed.
 
Another interesting bit of info from the documentary was that Utd were looking at Jock Stein, and Don Revie as replacements for Busby when O'Farrell was appointed.

Yep, didn't Stein essentially agreed to take the job, but as the story goes, his wife didnt want to move?
 
Another interesting bit of info from the documentary was that Utd were looking at Jock Stein, and Don Revie as replacements for Busby when O'Farrell was appointed.


Ahhhh!! Are we sure this is right? Jock Stein maybe but the prospect of Revie certainly makes the eyes pop. Wouldn't have thought for one second he and the club were compatible. O'Farrell's buys of Buchan and Ian Moore were unfortunately balanced by McDougal and Wyn Davies. I can possibly understand the punt on McDougal but Davies?
 
Yeah Revie came as a surprise to me. He was certainly mentioned but not as strongly as Stein.
 
When Bill Shankly resigned in 1974, it was widely rumoured that he quit because he'd asked for a place on the board & the club refused. This was also the year that United were relegated just 6 years after becoming the first English club to win The European Cup. I reckon Liverpool looked at United, & what could happen if they'd kept such a powerful & influential figure as Shanks lurking in the background.

David Peace was on a podcast I listen to on Tuesday, talking about his new book on Shankly(the interview is worth a listen), and said that when Shankly retired, the board offered him double or triple his wages for him to stay, but he still said no. Apparently they also offered him a place on the board but he refused as he said he wasn't one for meetings.
 
To be fair to Busby he basically built the club, twice, it cant have been easy trusting someone else with it.

In the end they got the appointments badly wrong. If he'd have stayed out of affairs maybe things might have turned out different for McGuinness and O'Farrell. In the case of O'Farrell I'm not sure though, his handling of Best (pissing off the rest of the squad), some of his signings and even his relationship with a player like Charlton who, although he was approaching the latter part of his career, was still a major influence, left a bit to be desired IMO.

He was also notoriously standoffish with players by all accounts, if they wanted to talk to him they apparently had to schedule an appointment.

I guess we'll never know, the only thing you can say is that neither went on to set the world of management on fire after their time at Utd.

Absolutely, I think the error was more the chaimans than Sir Matts.
 
Yeah a consequence of his success was that he basically was Manchester United. The impression I have is that it was Sir Matts way or the high way.

Obviously the same is true of Fergie but not to the same extent I don't think. I think Fergie, and the club have worked hard establishing a culture where there are lots of very well respected people, many former players in postions at the club, spreading the power and influence. I could be completely wide of the mark mind.
 
Ahhhh!! Are we sure this is right? Jock Stein maybe but the prospect of Revie certainly makes the eyes pop. Wouldn't have thought for one second he and the club were compatible. O'Farrell's buys of Buchan and Ian Moore were unfortunately balanced by McDougal and Wyn Davies. I can possibly understand the punt on McDougal but Davies?

I remember those days very well. During O'Farrell's first season, United stormed to the top of the league during the first few months. Best was playing brilliantly and goals were flying in from Law and Charlton too. By Christmas, the cracks started to appear and Best himself said that we would finish about 6th. I actually thought Wyn Davies was a good signing, especially after his cracking debut goal in a 3-0 battering of the league champions, Derby. Davies was excellent in the air and when MacDougall signed, they had the makings of a good partnership. I remember one game against Liverpool at home when both players scored in a 2-0 win. It was all a bit short-lived though. The senior players were baffled by O'Farrell's approach to the game and his "blackboard" tactics, which were somewhat novel at United. According to Denis Law, both O'Farrell and Malcolm Musgrove were aloof and didn't mix too much with the players. Then there was the shadow of Busby.

I remember the rumours about Jock Stein at the time, and the MEN made a pretty big deal out of it.Who can say what would have happened if the great man had taken the job but I suspect that we might have won the league much earlier than 1993 if he had taken over. Same goes for Docherty. Edwards ruined our chances of becoming champions when he sacked him.

I didn't hear about the Revie rumours until years later but I doubt he would have left Leeds to pick up the reins at United. There was also talk of Brian Clough coming but his open hostility to Louis Edwards would have put the kibosh on that. In fact when O'Farrell was sacked, Cloughie let it be known that he'd sent a huge bouquet of flowers to the O'Farrell home.
 
The good and bad of Matt Busby...just like Ferguson all humans make mistakes.

Matt Busby should have walked away properly in 1969 and let McGuinness get on with it.

Hindsight is 20:20
 
The good and bad of Matt Busby...just like Ferguson all humans make mistakes.

Matt Busby should have walked away properly in 1969 and let McGuinness get on with it.

Hindsight is 20:20

Busby should have walked away but could everyone else walk away from Busby? A powerful and magnetic individual like Busby (now Ferguson), would have hung like a shadow over United.
 
I felt for Farrell after reading the Busby book, I know some have said he didn't have the personality etc but from what the book says, he was a disciplinarian and could see that the team had taken their foot off the gas in certain areas and wanted to stamp his mark.. with Busby being there and a lot of the players not wanting their comfortable lifestyles at the club to be rocked, he was on a hiding to nothing. Compared to some of the unprofessional jokers who came in after Farrell.. who brought fun times but ultimately were destroying us with their ways, we should've been grateful that a good guy with strong values was in charge.

In the modern game, I just find it very hard to believe such circumstances can still occur especially at a club like ours and with a previous manager who is past retirement age. If it was a manager like Mourinho who had left, then yes the dressing room and himself would still be in touch and there'd always be the chance he could come back but I can't see that happening in the current set up.. Fergie will play the reclusive wise old sage who is available for advice should it be asked for better than Busby in my opinion.. any similar pranks played by Fergie would get seized on by the modern day media very quickly and it would damage his legacy, he'll have better self control.

If Moyes does turn out to not be upto scratch, it won't be Ferguson who is to blame - am fairly confident of that.
 
I can't see Fergie stepping on toes at all if i'm honest.

Differant time and differant charactors. I think if a player went to Fergie to complain about anything for example, he would probably be met with a swift kick up the arse from both Fergie and Moyes.
 
I can't see Fergie stepping on toes at all if i'm honest.

Differant time and differant charactors. I think if a player went to Fergie to complain about anything for example, he would probably be met with a swift kick up the arse from both Fergie and Moyes.
 
I can't see Fergie stepping on toes at all if i'm honest.

Differant time and differant charactors. I think if a player went to Fergie to complain about anything for example, he would probably be met with a swift kick up the arse from both Fergie and Moyes.

Yeah, when Fergie was talking to the players just after he told them he was retiring he asked that if they could do one thing for them going forward, to not call him boss or gaffer when he'd bump into them after he retired, as they'd have a new manager by then.
 
I don't think Moyes will face any in-fighting with Ferguson or anyone, in fact, I'm convinced Fergie will help him. Best thing Moyes can try and do is get it stirring in the league, we'll know he's on the right path when Mourinho has a dig, this club works best behind the manager as a closed unit, fortress Old Trafford and all that. Ferguson would be loathe to let that O'Farrell history repeat itself, I think.

Not to mention, Moyes is his own man and a bit of a hard nut to boot.
 
Its a hell of a job to live up to what Fergie has done and that will always be the comparison whether we like it or not. Failure for any manager at our club will be very easy. I think, over a period, we'll sink to below the top. Revenues will drop and my feeling is that we'll be picked up for a relative song, then eat your heart out City. Only at that time will the 'shadow' of Fergie go. Be prepared mes amis.
 
I remember those days very well. During O'Farrell's first season, United stormed to the top of the league during the first few months. Best was playing brilliantly and goals were flying in from Law and Charlton too. By Christmas, the cracks started to appear and Best himself said that we would finish about 6th. I actually thought Wyn Davies was a good signing, especially after his cracking debut goal in a 3-0 battering of the league champions, Derby. Davies was excellent in the air and when MacDougall signed, they had the makings of a good partnership. I remember one game against Liverpool at home when both players scored in a 2-0 win. It was all a bit short-lived though. The senior players were baffled by O'Farrell's approach to the game and his "blackboard" tactics, which were somewhat novel at United. According to Denis Law, both O'Farrell and Malcolm Musgrove were aloof and didn't mix too much with the players. Then there was the shadow of Busby.

I remember the rumours about Jock Stein at the time, and the MEN made a pretty big deal out of it.Who can say what would have happened if the great man had taken the job but I suspect that we might have won the league much earlier than 1993 if he had taken over. Same goes for Docherty. Edwards ruined our chances of becoming champions when he sacked him.

I didn't hear about the Revie rumours until years later but I doubt he would have left Leeds to pick up the reins at United. There was also talk of Brian Clough coming but his open hostility to Louis Edwards would have put the kibosh on that. In fact when O'Farrell was sacked, Cloughie let it be known that he'd sent a huge bouquet of flowers to the O'Farrell home.
 
Btw, it's already been suggested in the transfer forum that we need Fergie to return as director of football. Played 2 won 2 and this is already raising it's head.
 
Btw, it's already been suggested in the transfer forum that we need Fergie to return as director of football. Played 2 won 2 and this is already raising it's head.

I suggested it but I think you're missing the point a bit. Fergie, as DoF, would negotiate terms with Moyes' targets, and not Woodward. All he would do is sign the cheque. It certainly wasn't meant to be a critical stab at Moyes.
 
I suggested it but I think you're missing the point a bit. Fergie, as DoF, would negotiate terms with Moyes' targets, and not Woodward. All he would do is sign the cheque. It certainly wasn't meant to be a critical stab at Moyes.


That's just a total recipy for disaster man. Can't you see how that would be translated by the press and a lot of our fans? It would be a huge step in undermining Moyes and if anyone knows what happened in this club in the past they should know that this is the last thing we need now. I'd rather us not sign a player of note for 10 years than have that happen.
 
I suggested it but I think you're missing the point a bit. Fergie, as DoF, would negotiate terms with Moyes' targets, and not Woodward. All he would do is sign the cheque. It certainly wasn't meant to be a critical stab at Moyes.

Don't think that would be a good idea, to be in that role you have to be prepared to lick arses and get people to sign on the dotted line... Fergie's a no-nonsense man and whilst he has gravitas and star appeal, in the modern game and in that particular role you need some one whose a charmer and prepared to seduce.. not ruffle feathers.
 
That's just a total recipy for disaster man. Can't you see how that would be translated by the press and a lot of our fans? It would be a huge step in undermining Moyes and if anyone knows what happened in this club in the past they should know that this is the last thing we need now. I'd rather us not sign a player of note for 10 years than have that happen.

I too am leery of history repeating itself but I don't think it would undermine Moyes. He's the manager and he'd be the one to identify the players he wants. His choices would not be subject to veto and I don't think Fergie would do that anyway. His sole role would be to convince Moyes' targets to sign for the club, and that's a job he's well-suited to do. Of course, this is just theory and, as you've pointed out, there are potential flaws but I've no faith in Woodward whatsoever. How long did it take Gill to become adept at transfer negotiations?
 
One swan never made a summer, and one summer never made a career.

Give them another window or two and we'll judge then.
 
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