German Football 21/22 | "Der Klassiker", Sat 18:30

do.ob

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Dortmund game free on Sky Sports Mix. What’s this 3-3-2-2 formation Dortmund are playing?
For starters Dortmund's first three LB choices are injured and it makes sense to use a back three if you have to play Hazard at the back. But another truth is also that the team is depleted and lacks cohesion in all areas of the pitch, so it was sensible to strengthen defense and build up with a third CB, rather than try to go for a more open game with a 433.
 

TheGame

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For starters Dortmund's first three LB choices are injured and it makes sense to use a back three if you have to play Hazard at the back. But another truth is also that the team is depleted and lacks cohesion in all areas of the pitch, so it was sensible to strengthen defense and build up with a third CB, rather than try to go for a more open game with a 433.
Thanks, I saw Leipzig were targeting Hazard as most of their attacks were coming on that side.
 

giorno

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He is turning into a sublime player
Has been for years now

What is the issue with leipzig anyways? Understat model has them second on xP, yet they're midtable. It's not even a matter of massive underperformance in front of goal, or opponents scoring with every shot....bizarre

Also holy llama, bayern have scored 40 goals in 11 games
 

kouroux

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Has been for years now

What is the issue with leipzig anyways? Understat model has them second on xP, yet they're midtable. It's not even a matter of massive underperformance in front of goal, or opponents scoring with every shot....bizarre

Also holy llama, bayern have scored 40 goals in 11 games
He's reached another level this season. He was good before but not like this
 

uamini

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I don't know the legalities of Hertha's situation, but as far as I'm aware some companies write in their bylaws that you can not sell shares to the outside world without approval (e.g. to protect family control of a business) I imagine a football club would want to do the same, especially when the initial sale isn't to a sponsor, who has to worry about their public perception. So that they club doesn't end up in the portfolio of the likes of dictators or energy drink companies.
And while of course due to 50+1 clubs have to maintain control of the executive board, investors usually take seats on the supervisory board, which is why I was wondering (and assuming this really goes all the way down south) whether these seats are a courtesy or a legal right of the investors and how much you could hold a club to ransom via these board seats in a hostile situation.
Yes, Hertha has a say in who would get those shares if they were to be sold. I don't think insolvency would change that. Some people are hoping for an opportunity to buy back shares for cheap but I doubt that'll happen.
Tennor currently hold 4 of 9 seats on the board. A hostile investor would be annoying but it couldn't really take over because of the 50+1 rule.
Either way Windhorst has proven to be pretty unreliable, however he did end up paying everything he was supposed to so at least there wouldn't be any liquidity issues for Hertha if Tennor were to go down.
 

uamini

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Meanwhile in the 2. Bundesliga...
After 13 matchdays, Schalke, HSV and Werder have a combined 16 wins, 13 draws and 10 losses, which is good for 5th, 7th and 8th place...not exactly what they had hoped for. HSV's worst-case scenario would be that St Pauli gets a promotion and they don't.
 

do.ob

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I know it's still a bit hyperbolic at this moment, but is Leverkusen initially over performing until they get broken by Bayern a thing now? Should they petition DFL to push the fixture to the end of the calendar?
 

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I know it's still a bit hyperbolic at this moment, but is Leverkusen initially over performing until they get broken by Bayern a thing now? Should they petition DFL to push the fixture to the end of the calendar?
Can we count this as tradition please?
 

hellhunter

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I know it's still a bit hyperbolic at this moment, but is Leverkusen initially over performing until they get broken by Bayern a thing now? Should they petition DFL to push the fixture to the end of the calendar?
Can we count this as tradition please?
I think we all know the real breaking point was that DFB Pokal game.
 

do.ob

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Anthony Modeste, what a player!
 

stefan92

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Anthony Modeste, what a player!
Every United fan who says certain players are deadwood/past it/should be sold for cheap should have a long look at what Baumgart did to Modeste.
 

do.ob

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Every United fan who says certain players are deadwood/past it/should be sold for cheap should have a long look at what Baumgart did to Modeste.
Are you saying United should go for Baumgart? We can already see the rift at Cologne, so I suppose it could be possible:


I always thought he's wearing that cap, because he's balding, but maybe he's just a bit of a hipster?
 

ForEverEleven

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I know it's still a bit hyperbolic at this moment, but is Leverkusen initially over performing until they get broken by Bayern a thing now? Should they petition DFL to push the fixture to the end of the calendar?
Or it´s just the fact that we´re missing 4 to 5 startes per game + our only backup striker. But that of course is the less knee-jerk and more boring explanation.
 

do.ob

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Or it´s just the fact that we´re missing 4 to 5 startes per game + our only backup striker. But that of course is the less knee-jerk and more boring explanation.
I guess around the Hertha game injuries seem to have taken a turn for the worse but before it seems like Aranguiz (and Baumgartlinger, but he's been sort of replaced by Andrich already, hasn't he?) was the only long term injury. E.g. the squad that went out against KSC only seemed to be missing him and the two strikers?! I reckon you'd still expect an attack with Adli, Paulinho, Amiri, Diaby, Palacios and Witz as options to produce more than one goal and a defensive six of Andrich, Frimpong, Tah, Tapsoba, Bakker and Hradecky to concede less than two?! Another aspect worth pointing out in that regard is the fact that Wirtz recorded about a million G/A per 90 before the Bayern game and zero on both counts in the round about 200 minutes of domestic football he played since then.
It's obvious that Schick and Aranguiz are key players for Leverkusen, whose injuries have been painful losses and to make it out like it's all about Bayern was of course a joke, but I don't think that alone explains why Leverkusen went 5W-1D-1L before Bayern and 2D-1L (plus another L in the cup game) afterwards. While also "randomly" beating Sevilla 4-0 inbetween.
 

Zehner

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I guess around the Hertha game injuries seem to have taken a turn for the worse but before it seems like Aranguiz (and Baumgartlinger, but he's been sort of replaced by Andrich already, hasn't he?) was the only long term injury. E.g. the squad that went out against KSC only seemed to be missing him and the two strikers?! I reckon you'd still expect an attack with Adli, Paulinho, Amiri, Diaby, Palacios and Witz as options to produce more than one goal and a defensive six of Andrich, Frimpong, Tah, Tapsoba, Bakker and Hradecky to concede less than two?! Another aspect worth pointing out in that regard is the fact that Wirtz recorded about a million G/A per 90 before the Bayern game and zero on both counts in the round about 200 minutes of domestic football he played since then.
It's obvious that Schick and Aranguiz are key players for Leverkusen, whose injuries have been painful losses and to make it out like it's all about Bayern was of course a joke, but I don't think that alone explains why Leverkusen went 5W-1D-1L before Bayern and 2D-1L (plus another L in the cup game) afterwards. While also "randomly" beating Sevilla 4-0 inbetween.
It probably has to do with a statistical anomaly before the Bayern game (curiously similar to the over performance before the game against Bayern last season) but a break of mentality as well. Think I already mentioned it a few days ago but our winning streaks seem to be correlated with player forms heavily. Last season it was Bailey and to an extent Alario and Diaby, this season it was primarily Diaby, Schick and Wirtz (who IMO is still playing exceptionally well, just not scoring as much as before).

I also think with all the pace we have we are very dependent on somehow scoring the first goal. If that happens and the opponent has to commit to attack, we're very hard to defend. But when it doesn't happen, we aren't subtle enough and eventually allow big chances after possession losses when in attacking formation. New tactics, same old story.

I've been wondering what's the cause of it because we seem to be more suspect to this than other teams with less attacking quality. Maybe some players are overrated because they are spectacular on their days but not effective enough at their bottom level.
 

do.ob

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It probably has to do with a statistical anomaly before the Bayern game (curiously similar to the over performance before the game against Bayern last season) but a break of mentality as well. Think I already mentioned it a few days ago but our winning streaks seem to be correlated with player forms heavily. Last season it was Bailey and to an extent Alario and Diaby, this season it was primarily Diaby, Schick and Wirtz (who IMO is still playing exceptionally well, just not scoring as much as before).

I also think with all the pace we have we are very dependent on somehow scoring the first goal. If that happens and the opponent has to commit to attack, we're very hard to defend. But when it doesn't happen, we aren't subtle enough and eventually allow big chances after possession losses when in attacking formation. New tactics, same old story.

I've been wondering what's the cause of it because we seem to be more suspect to this than other teams with less attacking quality. Maybe some players are overrated because they are spectacular on their days but not effective enough at their bottom level.
I seem to recall someone made those points a couple of weeks ago. :wenger:

It's still curious just how streaky Leverkusen have been for several years now and how quickly they can go from one extreme to the other. Their reliance on young "tier 2" talents is an obvious explanation, but to me it's not entirely satisfying.
 

Zehner

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I seem to recall someone made those points a couple of weeks ago. :wenger:

It's still curious just how streaky Leverkusen have been for several years now and how quickly they can go from one extreme to the other. Their reliance on young "tier 2" talents is an obvious explanation, but to me it's not entirely satisfying.
To be fair, the first games under Seoane looked a bit different. We had much more possession wins high up the field, the wing backs made many runs in behind and the transitions were generally quicker. But things have normalized a bit and probably teams have adjusted to our new direction better than they did in the beginning.

I don't really think it has to do with tier 2 talents. Leipzig for instance follows a similar approach. It might have to do with the type of players scouted, though. Bailey, Diaby, now Adli are very pacey but not clinical in their decision making or particularly tidy on the ball. If you look at the teams that are really good at breaking down tight defenses, those are not the type of players they tend to use and I think it shows.
 

do.ob

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To be fair, the first games under Seoane looked a bit different. We had much more possession wins high up the field, the wing backs made many runs in behind and the transitions were generally quicker. But things have normalized a bit and probably teams have adjusted to our new direction better than they did in the beginning.
Game 1: 1-1 Union
Game 2: Sommer blunder after 3 minutes
Game 3: Augsburg own goal after 3 minutes
Game 4: Julian Brandt attack minded Dortmund
Game 5: some headed goal after 2 minutes
Game 6: 1-0 against Mainz
Game 7: Bielefeld run into a counter attack after 18 minutes

It's not that hard to see why a counter attacking team, fresh into the season, with a fresh coach, did do well.

I don't really think it has to do with tier 2 talents. Leipzig for instance follows a similar approach. It might have to do with the type of players scouted, though. Bailey, Diaby, now Adli are very pacey but not clinical in their decision making or particularly tidy on the ball. If you look at the teams that are really good at breaking down tight defenses, those are not the type of players they tend to use and I think it shows.
Leipzig get a lot of their talents from feeder clubs though, they already know what the club is all about and they can weed them out, before they even set foot in Leipzig. They also have a stable core in Gulacsi, Orban, Halstenberg, Klostermann, Kampl, Forsberg and Poulsen, that they can fall back on when young or new players have problems. However a focus in trickery and pace above mental attributes also makes a lot of sense as a factor.
 

do.ob

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Not exactly breaking news, but in that picture you can see quite a few familiar faces:
Philipp Wollscheid (former Leverkusen player)
Pirmin Schwegler (former Leverkusen, Frankfurt player)
Nuri Sahin (formerly Dortmund, Real, Liverpool)
Christoph Kramer (current Gladbach player)
Lars Stindl (current Gladbach player)
Makoto Hasebe (?!) (current Frankfurt player)
Marcel Schmelzer (sort of former Dortmund player)
the other two seem familiar as well, but I can't put a name to their face right now.
 
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do.ob

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What surprised me was that current players participate.
Yes, that's half the reason I posted it. I guess they cram all the parts that require them to be present into the international breaks, in order to accommodate the ones who are already working at professional clubs or are still playing.
 

stefan92

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Not exactly breaking news, but in that picture you can see quite a few familiar faces:
Philipp Wollscheid (former Leverkusen player)
Pirmin Schwegler (former Leverkusen, Frankfurt player)
Nuri Sahin (formerly Dortmund, Real, Liverpool)
Christoph Kramer (current Gladbach player)
Lars Stindl (current Gladbach player)
Makoto Hasebe (?!) (current Frankfurt player)
Marcel Schmelzer (sort of former Dortmund player)
the other two seem familiar as well, but I can't put a name to their face right now.
What is it about Hasebe that you put the (?!) there?
 

stefan92

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I was half guessing that it is actually him.
I see. Yes I think it's him, too.

By the way, is he the only active player who won both the league and the cup, while never playing for Bayern nor Dortmund? I guess he is like a unicorn in that regard :lol:
 

do.ob

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I see. Yes I think it's him, too.

By the way, is he the only active player who won both the league and the cup, while never playing for Bayern nor Dortmund? I guess he is like a unicorn in that regard :lol:
We're at a point where you're very special if you're an active Bundesliga player, who has won just the league alone with a club other than Bayern. "Unicorn" doesn't do Hasebe's feat justice. :lol:
 

2ndTouch

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We're at a point where you're very special if you're an active Bundesliga player, who has won just the league alone with a club other than Bayern. "Unicorn" doesn't do Hasebe's feat justice. :lol:
Just 2 or 3 years more, and we can finally cross this "special breed(are there any others than Hasebe and Reus,actually?)" of player off the list. Then it's just us, and only us. Us and the first generation of fans who have never seen any other team winning than...us :drool:
 

do.ob

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Just 2 or 3 years more, and we can finally cross this "special breed(are there any others than Hasebe and Reus,actually?)" of player off the list. Then it's just us, and only us. Us and the first generation of fans who have never seen any other team winning than...us :drool:
Reus has not won the league. Hummels, Götze, Gündogan, Lewandowski, Perisic are the active/relevant players I can recall.
 
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ForEverEleven

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I guess around the Hertha game injuries seem to have taken a turn for the worse but before it seems like Aranguiz (and Baumgartlinger, but he's been sort of replaced by Andrich already, hasn't he?) was the only long term injury. E.g. the squad that went out against KSC only seemed to be missing him and the two strikers?! I reckon you'd still expect an attack with Adli, Paulinho, Amiri, Diaby, Palacios and Witz as options to produce more than one goal and a defensive six of Andrich, Frimpong, Tah, Tapsoba, Bakker and Hradecky to concede less than two?! Another aspect worth pointing out in that regard is the fact that Wirtz recorded about a million G/A per 90 before the Bayern game and zero on both counts in the round about 200 minutes of domestic football he played since then.
It's obvious that Schick and Aranguiz are key players for Leverkusen, whose injuries have been painful losses and to make it out like it's all about Bayern was of course a joke, but I don't think that alone explains why Leverkusen went 5W-1D-1L before Bayern and 2D-1L (plus another L in the cup game) afterwards. While also "randomly" beating Sevilla 4-0 inbetween.
Another factor is that the last 4 Bundesliga games haven´t been easy opponents. Bayern, then Wolfsburg with Kohfeldt in his first game in charge (and that game was quite even until the first goal), Köln away who haven´t been beaten at home so far and Hertha away with a squad on their last legs. Of course you could´ve won a game or two more regardless of the injuries but it has to be taken into account.

The KSC game was a complete freak game that happens once a season. Should´ve scored 6 or 7 goals and conceded due to a Hradecky brainfart.

Overall, we´re still in a decent position in the table after a summer with lots of changes in the team. The start to the season was surprisingly good, but just like we weren´t title contenders then because we won a few games, we´re not "broken" or down in the mud because of a few less good games and unlucky results.
 
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do.ob

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Another factor is that the last 4 Bundesliga games haven´t been easy opponents. Bayern, then Wolfsburg with Kohfeldt in his first game in charge (and that game was quite even until the first goal), Köln away who haven´t been beaten at home so far and Hertha away with a squad on their last legs. Of course you could´ve won a game or two more regardless of the injuries but it has to be taken into account.

The KSC game was a complete freak game that happens once a season. Should´ve scored 6 or 7 goals and conceded due to a Hradecky brainfart.

Overall, we´re still in a decent position in the table after a summer with lots of changes in the team. The start to the season was surprisingly good, but just like we weren´t title contenders then because we won a few games, we´re not "broken" or down in the mud because of a few less good games and unlucky results.
To me the KSC and Cologne game seemed telling. Against a lower division side there are no excuses and both Leverkusen and Hradecky in particular have priors when it comes to this.

Against Cologne, who by the way got smashed by Hoffenheim the game before, Leverkusen even got their perfect start, but then in the second half Seoane went more and more defensive, conceding ground for Cologne to pressure them with their relatively one dimensional wing play/Andersson plan B. While on the other end Leverkusen squandered several counter attacks in inexplicable fashion.
Those two games felt to me like something broke after Bayern, things that seemed to work out naturally before suddenly didn't anymore.

Obviously Leverkusen are still in a good position to make top four, but it looks like their confidence is shot and they are now at a crossroads, where they either rebuild it the hard way or otherwise there is a real risk that things will spiral out of control.