German Football 21/22 | Gladbach sign Farke

hasanejaz88

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
5,922
Location
Munich
Supports
Germany
do.ob said:
Tuchel put himself in trouble and at some point he had crossed too many lines.

Bosz had the team in 8th place, with an 8 game winless streak and two draws against Nikosia in the CL.

Favre got three seasons to prove himself. He wasn't a good fit so the club looked elsewhere after his contract.

Rose apparently didn't get unconditional support after conceding 52 goals, going out to Sporting in the CL, to Rangers in the EL and St. Pauli in the cup.

The club had a few transfer flops too many and seems to have lost strategic focus lately, but I don't see how any of these coaches got mistreated and especially not stabbed in the back.
Click to expand...
I never said Bosz should or shouldn't have been fired, but rather it shows incomptence when you hire a manager and let him go after 6 months. Similar to Rose in that they sacked him after one season.

For Tuchel, egos clashed and ultimately the Dortmund leadership wanted to have their way and got it. Ultimately, they missed out on an elite manager, in hindsight would you say it was the correct decision to sack him?

Favre was a manager I really liked, he came as close as anyone has since Klopp to win the title but ultimately they did choke to lose it. I wasn't against him being sacked as Dortmund were nose-diving that season, that's why I didn't mention him.

But Bosz, Tuchel and Rose, so essentially 3 out of the 4 managers appointed since Klopp, have been mistakes by the board. Either through their hiring or through their firing.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,626
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
hasanejaz88 said:
I never said Bosz should or shouldn't have been fired, but rather it shows incomptence when you hire a manager and let him go after 6 months. Similar to Rose in that they sacked him after one season.

For Tuchel, egos clashed and ultimately the Dortmund leadership wanted to have their way and got it. Ultimately, they missed out on an elite manager, in hindsight would you say it was the correct decision to sack him?

Favre was a manager I really liked, he came as close as anyone has since Klopp to win the title but ultimately they did choke to lose it. I wasn't against him being sacked as Dortmund were nose-diving that season, that's why I didn't mention him.

But Bosz, Tuchel and Rose, so essentially 3 out of the 4 managers appointed since Klopp, have been mistakes by the board. Either through their hiring or through their firing.
Click to expand...
I don't think Bosz failed because he is a bad coach and the club tried to, but couldn't get Favre or Nagelsmann out of their contracts at the time. So I don't think it was a huge blunder to sign him. Even less so with Rose, who still had a good finish in the league. Sometimes things just don't work out.

Before his second season Tuchel wrote a nasty SMS about Zorc to his agent, only he sent it to the man himself. He then complained about the club's transfer strategy in press conferences. That alone would have been enough to get him sacked at some clubs. He then topped it off with his behavior around around the bus attack. He could be the best coach in the world, social aspects and loyalty also matter, so yes, I'd sack him again without hesitation and I cringe every time someone paints the situation as if Tuchel didn't bring it on himself, when the man also ran into issues at Mainz and PSG with his behavior and made Bayern very hesitant to hire him.



tenpoless said:
Enjoy 7th place, Dortmund.
Click to expand...
Season is over actually. They finished second. I can see why you would be confused about finishing in 7th place though.
 
Last edited:

Boavista

Full Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
529
No one knows what happened in that post season meeting, but it seems that Dortmund were willing to continue with Rose into next season before that meeting. So at least to me it seems that for whatever reason the club and Rose weren't able to constructively evaluate last season's failings, and that's not a good basis for continuing to work together.

Could it be that the club didn't handle this well, and maybe put too much blame on Rose for matters that were outside of his control? Yeah but at the same time if Rose wasn't able to deal with whatever criticism and constructively discuss with the club what needs to change for things to improve then I think he maybe just wasn't ready for that job. Or their vision of how to improve were so far apart that continuing to work together makes no sense anyway. I somehow doubt the club were excessively critical of Rose in that meeting, otherwise there probably would have been more indications of doubt beforehand, so I imagine things happened and words were said that made it difficult to continue.

Same goes for Tuchel, as talented as he clearly was, he himself admitted that he's grown and learnt how to handle dealing with club bosses better since his Dortmund time.

This is a bit of speculation, but considering how Rose wasn't really able to turn around Gladbach's bad form last season that more or less coincided with rumours of his departure, maybe he just doesn't handle adversity that well?
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,626
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
Boavista said:
No one knows what happened in that post season meeting, but it seems that Dortmund were willing to continue with Rose into next season before that meeting. So at least to me it seems that for whatever reason the club and Rose weren't able to constructively evaluate last season's failings, and that's not a good basis for continuing to work together.

Could it be that the club didn't handle this well, and maybe put too much blame on Rose for matters that were outside of his control? Yeah but at the same time if Rose wasn't able to deal with whatever criticism and constructively discuss with the club what needs to change for things to improve then I think he maybe just wasn't ready for that job. Or their vision of how to improve were so far apart that continuing to work together makes no sense anyway. I somehow doubt the club were excessively critical of Rose in that meeting, otherwise there probably would have been more indications of doubt beforehand, so I imagine things happened and words were said that made it difficult to continue.

Same goes for Tuchel, as talented as he clearly was, he himself admitted that he's grown and learnt how to handle dealing with club bosses better since his Dortmund time.

This is a bit of speculation, but considering how Rose wasn't really able to turn around Gladbach's bad form last season that more or less coincided with rumours of his departure, maybe he just doesn't handle adversity that well?
Click to expand...
Rose was a bit thin skinned with the media lately, but I don't think you have to spin big theories to find an explanation. The club's position will have been: the season was pretty disappointing and we want to see improvements next season, but we're willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

And from Rose's point of view it wasn't an easy proposition: a rebuild with Adeyemi, Özcan and maybe Ekitike or Kalajdzic - players one wouldn't necessarily expect to be at their best right away. But on the other hand the Süle and Schlotterbeck signings, quite a bit of (gross) spending and the criticism from the current season creating some expectations of early progress - at least among fans and media. All that knowing that the club could easily sack him at any time, because Terzic is available.

Leaving now means his reputation is still more or less intact: the season was bad, but injuries and weaknesses in the squad can explain it to a degree. Similar to his slide at Gladbach.
 

hasanejaz88

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
5,922
Location
Munich
Supports
Germany
do.ob said:
I don't think Bosz failed because he is a bad coach and the club tried to, but couldn't get Favre or Nagelsmann out of their contracts at the time. So I don't think it was a huge blunder to sign him. Even less so with Rose, who still had a good finish in the league. Sometimes things just don't work out.

Before his second season Tuchel wrote a nasty SMS about Zorc to his agent, only he sent it to the man himself. He then complained about the club's transfer strategy in press conferences. That alone would have been enough to get him sacked at some clubs. He then topped it off with his behavior around around the bus attack. He could be the best coach in the world, social aspects and loyalty also matter, so yes, I'd sack him again without hesitation and I cringe every time someone paints the situation as if Tuchel didn't bring it on himself, when the man also ran into issues at Mainz and PSG with his behavior and made Bayern very hesitant to hire him.
Click to expand...
So doesn't that show Dortmund's leadership in a bad light that they hired an bad coach? How is not a blunder that they had to sack someone they signed 6 months on and basically wasted a season?

With Tuchel, plenty managers complain about transfer strategies but still stay on in the job, ofcourse they will get fired if they have a horrible season though (which Tuchel didn't have by any stretch of the imagination). He was screwed by Dortmund when said they wouldn't sell Gundogan, Mhiki and Hummels but still ended up doing it, completely turning back the progress they made the previous season. And from the bus attack, you mean his behaviour where he criticized the people who wanted to make his team play one day after they were bombed? How is that not a valid criticism? It's funny that people are saying Rose has a thin skin when it seemed back then that the Dortmund leadership had thin skin and couldn't take criticism.

Bayern is not a good example of a team being hesitant to sign a manager, when they are an epitome of a club run by egotistical leaders who can't take someone criticizing their decisions. Didn't they lose the coach who won them the treble because he didn't like working with them?
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,626
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
hasanejaz88 said:
So doesn't that show Dortmund's leadership in a bad light that they hired an bad coach? How is not a blunder that they had to sack someone they signed 6 months on and basically wasted a season?
Click to expand...
Bosz isn't a bad coach though? Before Dortmund he made the EL final with Ajax, after Dortmund he did a decent job at Leverkusen.

With Tuchel, plenty managers complain about transfer strategies but still stay on in the job, ofcourse they will get fired if they have a horrible season though (which Tuchel didn't have by any stretch of the imagination). He was screwed by Dortmund when said they wouldn't sell Gundogan, Mhiki and Hummels but still ended up doing it, completely turning back the progress they made the previous season. And from the bus attack, you mean his behaviour where he criticized the people who wanted to make his team play one day after they were bombed? How is that not a valid criticism? It's funny that people are saying Rose has a thin skin when it seemed back then that the Dortmund leadership had thin skin and couldn't take criticism.
Click to expand...
I can't be bothered to go into this so I'll just say that behind the scenes Tuchel is supposed to have said wildly different things than in front of the camera. And the club "screwed" him, by only signing Schürrle for him and then going for Guerreiro and Dembele instead of Karim Bellarabi.

Bayern is not a good example of a team being hesitant to sign a manager, when they are an epitome of a club run by egotistical leaders who can't take someone criticizing their decisions. Didn't they lose the coach who won them the treble because he didn't like working with them?
Click to expand...
Right. Hoeneß and Rummenigge clearly didn't know how to run a club.
 

uamini

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
627
Location
Berlin
Supports
Herta BSC
I seriously don't understand the handball rule anymore...seems like they change it every 2 months.
 

Sphaero

Struggling to explain his genius to the hoi polloi
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
4,620
Location
Potsdam, Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
do.ob said:
I can't be bothered to go into this so I'll just say that behind the scenes Tuchel is supposed to have said wildly different things than in front of the camera. And the club "screwed" him, by only signing Schürrle for him and then going for Guerreiro and Dembele instead of Karim Bellarabi.
Click to expand...
There is actually little reason for the word supposed here as it was the worst kept "secret" around the club at that time. There was no person in the club that pushed harder for the game to played than Thomas Tuchel. He absolutely loathed the idea of losing that game on the green table so he held a 15 minute long speech in front of the players and staff demanding them to "man up", act like professionals and seize the opportunity. Watzke spoke afterwards, starting by apologizing of not finding a better alternative (that actually brought him a lot of support of the players and staff), requesting them to play aswell stating the financial consqeuences of an default loss, but giving any player the option to sit the game out.

At the end all players available played the game and lost. Tuchel afterwards did a 180 infront of the press stating how they felt forced into playing that game. That single act created a firestorm inside the club, burning any remaining trust from the vast majority of the dressing room and the entirety of the goodwill from the higher ups (Zorc was already heavily on odds with him beforehand and Tuchels most steadfast supporter Watzke also turned) and staff. It even led a lot of staff members including two I personally know to break the golden rule of the club to keep any internal informations behind closed doors.

Tuchel, who was already fairly disliked amongst personell of the club, made himself a persona non grata right then and the only reason the club stayed fairly calm was the open promise by Watzke towards players and staff to "take care of it" after the season was done.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,626
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
uamini said:
I seriously don't understand the handball rule anymore...seems like they change it every 2 months.
Click to expand...

Sphaero said:
There is actually little reason for the word supposed here as it was the worst kept "secret" around the club at that time. There was no person in the club that pushed harder for the game to played than Thomas Tuchel. He absolutely loathed the idea of losing that game on the green table so he held a 15 minute long speech in front of the players and staff demanding them to "man up", act like professionals and seize the opportunity. Watzke spoke afterwards, starting by apologizing of not finding a better alternative (that actually brought him a lot of support of the players and staff), requesting them to play aswell stating the financial consqeuences of an default loss, but giving any player the option to sit the game out.

At the end all players available played the game and lost. Tuchel afterwards did a 180 infront of the press stating how they felt forced into playing that game. That single act created a firestorm inside the club, burning any remaining trust from the vast majority of the dressing room and the entirety of the goodwill from the higher ups (Zorc was already heavily on odds with him beforehand and Tuchels most steadfast supporter Watzke also turned) and staff. It even led a lot of staff members including two I personally know to break the golden rule of the club to keep any internal informations behind closed doors.

Tuchel, who was already fairly disliked amongst personell of the club, made himself a persona non grata right then and the only reason the club stayed fairly calm was the open promise by Watzke towards players and staff to "take care of it" after the season was done.
Click to expand...
I agree with you, which is why I find it especially funny that people put it like it was all about Watzke's ego, when he seems to have been the one trying to make things work between Zorc and Tuchel for as long as he could. I just couldn't be bothered to type it out.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,626
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
uamini said:
Yeah, it's just that every referee seems to have a different view on what an arm's natural position should be.
Click to expand...
If it was against any other team I'd say that in the spirit of the game this clearly shouldn't stand no matter what the rules technically state. But the arm seems to be in a fairly natural turning motion.
 

NoLogo

Full Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
19,872
Location
I can't remember why I joined this war.
Schlotterbeck really looking strong, he is probably going to be a good purchase for Dortmund. I also like that Simakan fella, playing for RB, looks fast and confident with the ball at his feet. Certainly another RB player that is worth keeping an eye out for.
 

Acrobat7

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
5,296
Supports
Bayern Munich
hellhunter said:
If Bayern can help us out with buying some youngsters like in the 90s, that would be appreciated <3
Click to expand...
Sell Lewandowski to finance buying Nkunku (and extend Gnabry + play him as CF) so that we save him from leaving Bundesliga. :drool:
 

Acrobat7

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
5,296
Supports
Bayern Munich
hellhunter said:
Kidding aside, it doesn't sound too unlikely. Are there any rumours about Nkunku to Bayern?
Click to expand...
Not sure. But to me that would be a best case scenario if/when Lewa leaves. There is no comparable CF available to Bayern and I want to keep Gnabry.
Schick could work as CF but is obviously several levels below Lewy (who isn’t?) and then we‘d probably lost Gnabry as well.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,626
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
NoLogo said:
Freiburg one man more on the field, but they look dead in the water, non-stop Leipzig attacks for the last 20 minutes or so.
Click to expand...
Their biggest issue is that all their attacks end in a quick offside, so they never relieve the pressure for more than a few seconds. But hopefully things will change in extra time, maybe Streich can make an adjustment.
 

hasanejaz88

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
5,922
Location
Munich
Supports
Germany
do.ob said:
Bosz isn't a bad coach though? Before Dortmund he made the EL final with Ajax, after Dortmund he did a decent job at Leverkusen.



I can't be bothered to go into this so I'll just say that behind the scenes Tuchel is supposed to have said wildly different things than in front of the camera. And the club "screwed" him, by only signing Schürrle for him and then going for Guerreiro and Dembele instead of Karim Bellarabi.



Right. Hoeneß and Rummenigge clearly didn't know how to run a club.
Click to expand...
Hoeness and Rummenigge run the club a certain way, they clearly don't like managers that challenge their opinion. It also certainly helps they have a massive financial advantage over their closest opponents.

do.ob said:



I agree with you, which is why I find it especially funny that people put it like it was all about Watzke's ego, when he seems to have been the one trying to make things work between Zorc and Tuchel for as long as he could. I just couldn't be bothered to type it out.
Click to expand...
The only place I can see a mention of Tuchel wanting the team to play is in a book, no other quotes from any officials, players or coaching staff. Tuchel maintained the same opinion that he did not agree with playing the next day during the trial of the bomber, the players didn't dispute any of that (not sure if they were explicited questioned about it).

Surely, some more credible names would've come out and said something about that day if what Tuchel is maintaining is a lie.

Also, I feel so dumb for missing most of this final. I thought it wasn't going to be shown in SkySports.
 

NoLogo

Full Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
19,872
Location
I can't remember why I joined this war.
do.ob said:
Their biggest issue is that all their attacks end in a quick offside, so they never relieve the pressure for more than a few seconds. But hopefully things will change in extra time, maybe Streich can make an adjustment.
Click to expand...
Freiburg is misplacing way too many passes as well, they should have an easy time passing circles around Leipzig with one additional player on the pitch, but just keep losing the ball way too fast.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,626
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
NoLogo said:
Freiburg is misplacing way too many passes as well, they should have an easy time passing circles around Leipzig with one additional player on the pitch, but just keep losing the ball way too fast.
Click to expand...
In the end they are a team of mediocre individual quality, set up to play direct football every week. They can't just switch to positional dominance in the middle of a cup final.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.