German Football 21/22 | Gladbach sign Farke

mazhar13

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It's just bland in comparison. Like for example Frankfurt have a large traveling section and they are just going non stop, they can take over stadiums and that also makes the other side more active. Then on the other hand you have your average plastic club, whose fans can't even buy out all the away tickets, you hear them when their team is doing well and the rest of the time they more or less shut up. The atmosphere is just more vibrant when two proper clubs meet each other.
And visually it of course makes a big difference whether there's 30000 people or 50000 to 80000. I mean if someone offered to take you to a Leverkusen against Dortmund fixture and you could choose whether the game is in Dortmund or in Leverkusen, would you have to think for a second what would be the better experience?
To answer the bolded question first, obviously, in a live experience, that would be very, very apparent. I was just saying that the broadcasters have done a decent job of limiting that negative exposure, but I'll give you Leverkusen's poor atmosphere. Now that you mentioned it, I remember several matches where their crowd gets quiet, and that seems to affect the whole team, too.

With that said, I wouldn't say that every plastic club suffers from that. Leipzig have a great home crowd, for example, and it shows in the broadcasts. Hoffenheim have a decent crowd, too, though I'll pay more attention to them as the season goes. On the grand scheme of things, though, these clubs are able to remain at the top and somehow not be restrained in their spending, though we must give credit to them for not blowing their budgets like, say, Hertha Berlin do. Unfortunately, I don't think any of them have really grown except for Leipzig, who've benefitted not only from the regular CL exposure but by being branded as one of Bayern Munich's biggest challengers. I don't remember such narratives lasting as long for a club like Wolfsburg, which actually won the league title with an amazing front 2. Heck, they even had Julian Draxler and Kevin de Bruyne afterwards and still struggled to gain more exposure.

That's not happening, but its not happening for anyone in the BL. Why that's the case I think should be the question before blaming Leverkusen and Wolfsburg, and now also Leipzig.
I go back to this because, overall, outside of Bayern Munich and Dortmund, no other German club has really gotten that worldwide exposure. Leipzig are the only club that's seemingly breaking through. Personally, I think the Bundesliga should do a way better job of marketing some of the other clubs and not just putting them aside for the Big 2/3. I look at much of the Bundesliga advertising in both the U.S. and Canada, for example, and they just seem to focus on Bayern Munich (Davies + American players + prior worldwide exposure), Dortmund (Reyna and Pulisic before him + exciting young players), and Leipzig (Adams + exciting young players).
 

Rasendori

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My „would i watch it?“ table:

Bayern - yes
Dortmund - yes
Leipzig - only against a top opponent
Leverkusen - against a good opponent
Gladbach - yes
Wolfsburg - no
Frankfurt - against a good opponent
Hoffenheim - i might, plastic but I think that Hoeness will play interesting football and end up at Bayern anyways
Hertha - no
Stuttgart - no
Freiburg - i might, Streich is awesome
Mainz - no
Augsburg - no
Union - no, feck them
Köln - no
Bielefeld - no
Bochum - no
Fürth - no
For me ...
Bayern - Only against Stuttgart, and Leverkusen provided both Lewandowski and Tapsoba are starting
Dortmund - Only against Stuttgart, and Leverkusen provided both Haaland and Tapsoba are starting
Leipzig - Occasionally as I'm curious about Jesse Marsch
Leverkusen - Only for games which allow me to see Tapsoba against Wout Weghorst, Haaland, and Lewandowski.
Gladbach - Occasionally as I'm curious about Adi Hütter
Wolfsburg - Only against Stuttgart and Leverkusen provided both Wout Weghorst and Tapsoba are starting
Frankfurt - No
Hoffenheim - No
Hertha - No
Stuttgart - Provided I've completed my responsibilities for the week, I'd be happy to watch them against any of the Bundesliga sides
Freiburg - No
Mainz - No
Augsburg - No
Union - Occasionally as I'm curious about Urs Fischer
Köln - No
Bielefeld - No
Bochum - No
Fürth - No

2021/22 teams I expect to see a decent amount of :
Man Utd, Shakhtar Donetsk, Swansea City, Getafe , Stuttgart, and Barcelona
 

do.ob

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To answer the bolded question first, obviously, in a live experience, that would be very, very apparent. I was just saying that the broadcasters have done a decent job of limiting that negative exposure, but I'll give you Leverkusen's poor atmosphere. Now that you mentioned it, I remember several matches where their crowd gets quiet, and that seems to affect the whole team, too.

With that said, I wouldn't say that every plastic club suffers from that. Leipzig have a great home crowd, for example, and it shows in the broadcasts. Hoffenheim have a decent crowd, too, though I'll pay more attention to them as the season goes. On the grand scheme of things, though, these clubs are able to remain at the top and somehow not be restrained in their spending, though we must give credit to them for not blowing their budgets like, say, Hertha Berlin do. Unfortunately, I don't think any of them have really grown except for Leipzig, who've benefitted not only from the regular CL exposure but by being branded as one of Bayern Munich's biggest challengers. I don't remember such narratives lasting as long for a club like Wolfsburg, which actually won the league title with an amazing front 2. Heck, they even had Julian Draxler and Kevin de Bruyne afterwards and still struggled to gain more exposure.


I go back to this because, overall, outside of Bayern Munich and Dortmund, no other German club has really gotten that worldwide exposure. Leipzig are the only club that's seemingly breaking through. Personally, I think the Bundesliga should do a way better job of marketing some of the other clubs and not just putting them aside for the Big 2/3. I look at much of the Bundesliga advertising in both the U.S. and Canada, for example, and they just seem to focus on Bayern Munich (Davies + American players + prior worldwide exposure), Dortmund (Reyna and Pulisic before him + exciting young players), and Leipzig (Adams + exciting young players).

Well for starters Nagelsmann critizied Hoffenheim's fans several times in the press, while he was still there. But I get that the production crew has capable audio engineers, who can mitigate a lot.

I think the it's often overstated how well these clubs are run:
Wolfsburg for example are a bottomless pit, whether it's a good year or a bad year they just keep spending their say 30 million and then they they bounce around the table. Without VW as a safety net and inexhaustable revenue stream they would've gone the way of Schalke long ago.

Leverkusen can just sink €30m on Demirbay, €25m on Schick and Alaraio, €20m on Dragovic, Retsos, Palacios, Paulinho, they can keep missing top four despite having the third or fourth highest wage bill in the country and it doesn't seem to matter much. Gladbach on the other hand usually cant spend more than €10m on a player and they have to get basically everything right all the time.

Leipzig hire half their players from their feeder clubs and when they don't you see plenty of players who don't work out, it's just lost in their scatter gun approach:
20/21: Sörloth €20m, Hwang €9m
19/20: Lookman €18m, Wolf €12m, Candido €8m
18/19: Cunha €15m, Sarrachi €12m
17/18: Augustin €16m, Bruma €15m

That's over €30m per year on average, more than your usual (gross) budget of Gladbach or Frankfurt that they spend on players who add little to nothing to their team. Now of course most of these players aren't complete duds and they can sell some of them for decent money, so on the whole their transfer balance looks good. But it's just worlds apart from the reality of the two aforementioned clubs. When Gladbach or Frankfurt spend €20m they have to be 110% sure he's going to be a key player for them, otherwise that transfer alone can set them back several years, because if things go south they can't just solve their problems with an uncomfortable phone call to daddy.

I actually think Hoffenheim are the closest to a regular club in that regard, because almost all of the players they sign are bought for very moderate sums and they seem to turning a healthy profit, being able to pay out €55m to a certain "atypical silent partner" last year, despite Corona.



I can't really say much about international marketing, because almost all of the content is geo-blocked here, so I never really see it. But going by his Twitter account, Derek Rae, the guy who does the "world feed" seems to have a very good understanding of German football and seems to be aware of even the subtle points. As far as the focus on certain players goes: isn't that how you have to do it? Like if they do the advanced stuff, e.g. a portrait of Christian Streich, is anyone, who isn't already a Bundesliga regular, going to watch that? Or even say to themselves: "well heck, Freiburg are my club now!". It sounds like a reasonable approach to me to advertise with the national heroes, who people feel a personal connection with and then leave it up to the actual "content" to win people over for certain clubs.




GI looking slightly wild for the second tier.
 
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mazhar13

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GI looking slightly wild for the second tier.
Man, I wish I had more time and better access to watch the German 2nd division. This season's looking real wild.

On the rest of the post, I largely agree, and it sucks that most of the German clubs can't get away with spending much. Out of all of the leagues, I think only the English clubs get away with overspending. The fact that Dortmund were the only one able to get past it (mostly due to their sales + regular CL football) is concerning, to say the least.

Regarding the marketing, though, it started off with the focus on American players, but by now, they've moved on for the most part (except for Canada via Alphonso Davies). The American players don't get highlighted as much as they used to, but unfortunately, the popularity just isn't there, sadly.

Oh well, I guess I can still enjoy watching the Bundesliga, but it sucks that it's a tier below in popularity behind England, Spain, and Italy.
 

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DFB has overturned Wolfsburg's cup win into a 0:2 loss. They have 24 hours to appeal the ruling. #impactsub


Man, I wish I had more time and better access to watch the German 2nd division. This season's looking real wild.

On the rest of the post, I largely agree, and it sucks that most of the German clubs can't get away with spending much. Out of all of the leagues, I think only the English clubs get away with overspending. The fact that Dortmund were the only one able to get past it (mostly due to their sales + regular CL football) is concerning, to say the least.

Regarding the marketing, though, it started off with the focus on American players, but by now, they've moved on for the most part (except for Canada via Alphonso Davies). The American players don't get highlighted as much as they used to, but unfortunately, the popularity just isn't there, sadly.

Oh well, I guess I can still enjoy watching the Bundesliga, but it sucks that it's a tier below in popularity behind England, Spain, and Italy.
All other things being equal it would obviously be better to have more money in the league, but the relative lack of it has also kept clubs from getting lazy. or punished them for it, as Schalke were the latest to learn that if you live in the past you will suffer.


I'm sure he's very promising, but how do Leverkusen ever expect to find consistency if their only reliable players are Baumgartlinger and Aranguiz?
 
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mazhar13

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DFB has overturned Wolfsburg's cup win into a 0:2 loss. They have 24 hours to appeal the ruling. #impactsub
I wonder if the refs will face some consequences for allowing that extra sub. They should have known better than to allow that change to go through.
 

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Georginho Rutter looks an exciting young player, how do the French keep producing these talents!
 

do.ob

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I wonder if the refs will face some consequences for allowing that extra sub. They should have known better than to allow that change to go through.
If refs mess up they sometimes get dropped down a league for a few weeks, but I doubt we will see anything more than that. They seem to be very protective of their own.
 

mazhar13

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If refs mess up they sometimes get dropped down a league for a few weeks, but I doubt we will see anything more than that. They seem to be very protective of their own.
Yeah, that's what I'd expect here even though I want them to be punished further (like a refereeing suspension or something to that effect).
 

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Yeah, that's what I'd expect here even though I want them to be punished further (like a refereeing suspension or something to that effect).
It is not the referees job to prevent players and coaches from making mistakes.

So there is not much reason to punish them - Wolfsburg's coach made the mistake, the referee put it in his report, now the DFB decided. So far this is a quite clean process.

At least as it seems now like the rumours that they asked the referee and he said that the sub would be ok have no substance. Most likely there was a honest misunderstanding and confusion I think, but in the end that is van Bommel's responsibility.
 

mazhar13

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It is not the referees job to prevent players and coaches from making mistakes.

So there is not much reason to punish them - Wolfsburg's coach made the mistake, the referee put it in his report, now the DFB decided. So far this is a quite clean process.

At least as it seems now like the rumours that they asked the referee and he said that the sub would be ok have no substance. Most likely there was a honest misunderstanding and confusion I think, but in the end that is van Bommel's responsibility.
Now that I think about it, if a team wanted to make an illegal sub, then I guess the refs can let them do it given that the Laws of the Game don't state anything about the referee enforcing the substitution limits. In that case, as you said, the refs don't necessarily need to be given a strong punishment, but I'd expect them to be reminded about the rule as they have the final say on whether a substituted player can leave the pitch.
 

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If refs mess up they sometimes get dropped down a league for a few weeks, but I doubt we will see anything more than that. They seem to be very protective of their own.
Quick reminder that the DFB has been actively promoting, nurturing and showcasing Felix Zwayer who is not just a really poor referee but who has been actually, literally, provenly corrupt and took money in exchange for manipulated games. I mean, what the actual feck.

It's proper banana republic stuff, really.
 

do.ob

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Quick reminder that the DFB has been actively promoting, nurturing and showcasing Felix Zwayer who is not just a really poor referee but who has been actually, literally, provenly corrupt and took money in exchange for manipulated games. I mean, what the actual feck.

It's proper banana republic stuff, really.
Yeah, I was considering mentioning him. It really is ridiculous that were talking about a business where minors can get paid millions and even the referees are already rewarded quite handsomely by regular standards, but as far as accountability goes it might as well be amateur football. And no one really talks about it, the only ones who speak up are people like Rafati or Gräfe, who air their grievances after they are already out.

It is not the referees job to prevent players and coaches from making mistakes.

So there is not much reason to punish them - Wolfsburg's coach made the mistake, the referee put it in his report, now the DFB decided. So far this is a quite clean process.

At least as it seems now like the rumours that they asked the referee and he said that the sub would be ok have no substance. Most likely there was a honest misunderstanding and confusion I think, but in the end that is van Bommel's responsibility.
In a legal sense it's obviously Van Bommel's responsibility, but I'm pretty sure referees expect of themselves and and their colleagues to spot and prevent a bonus substitution, it's their job to ensure the integrity of the game and letting it go to the courts is the opposite of that. Missing such a serious and obvious rule break a grave mistake.

edit:
Even DFB's head ref has stated that it was the duty of the fourth official to prevent this mistake from happening and if you read what the referee in question reportedly said at the trial it becomes even more ridiculous. Like where Wolfsburg's officals claim they asked him straight up whether another sub was legal, he says he only told them that there are three substitution windows for each team, but he can't recall his exact words. He supposedly missed the mistake, because he (being the fourth ref) was focusing on an upcoming corner. He noticed it only after the first half of extra time and wrote it down on a piece of paper (which naturally he lost) and he only told others after the game had been over.
 
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Zehner

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DFB has overturned Wolfsburg's cup win into a 0:2 loss. They have 24 hours to appeal the ruling. #impactsub




All other things being equal it would obviously be better to have more money in the league, but the relative lack of it has also kept clubs from getting lazy. or punished them for it, as Schalke were the latest to learn that if you live in the past you will suffer.


I'm sure he's very promising, but how do Leverkusen ever expect to find consistency if their only reliable players are Baumgartlinger and Aranguiz?
It's the best thing to do. Signing proven players almost always turns out a mistake. Demirbay, Dragovic, etc. We can't sign players with the quality to improve us immediately, we have to develop them. With Wirtz, Paulinho, Diaby, Palacios, Bakker, Frimpong, Hincapie, Tapsoba and Kossounou, we have a very strong core of talented young players again. And we also signed some highly rated youth players such as Sertdemir, Steur, Zirkzee, etc. And we are still at only €7m net spent even though we made +€46m last season. Got a decent fee for Bailey, moved on Jedvaj and Gray and got the Benders and Dragovic off the wage bill. IMO the best transfer window we had in ages.
 

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It's the best thing to do. Signing proven players almost always turns out a mistake. Demirbay, Dragovic, etc. We can't sign players with the quality to improve us immediately, we have to develop them. With Wirtz, Paulinho, Diaby, Palacios, Bakker, Frimpong, Hincapie, Tapsoba and Kossounou, we have a very strong core of talented young players again. And we also signed some highly rated youth players such as Sertdemir, Steur, Zirkzee, etc. And we are still at only €7m net spent even though we made +€46m last season. Got a decent fee for Bailey, moved on Jedvaj and Gray and got the Benders and Dragovic off the wage bill. IMO the best transfer window we had in ages.
Sure, glass half full is that most players in the squad have plenty of room to grow.
But glass half empty is that Leverkusen was already notoriously inconsistent and the leadership have now replaced half of what little experience the squad had with teenage CBs out of Belgium and Argentina.

It's not like Leverkusen's squad is set to walk into top four anyway and if push comes to shove and the pressure rises there's a good chance that having a squad of young and inconsistent players with little to no leadership will end in a not too unfamiliar way. In fact Kossounou and Frimpong already showed a text book display of youthful naivety on Union's goal. So arguably this approach has already cost Bayer in their very first game.

Obviously Leverkusen can't just sign any top player, but it should be able to spot players who are leadership material here and there if you actively look out for them. Andrich is a transfer that appears to be aimed in that direction, but oddly enough it's where they already have Baumgartlinger and Aranguiz?

To be honest, and while I'm not even sure it would have been a good idea, I half expected the club to make a move at Boateng. Because their back line just screamed out for a grown up last season.
 

Zehner

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Sure, glass half full is that most players in the squad have plenty of room to grow.
But glass half empty is that Leverkusen was already notoriously inconsistent and the leadership have now replaced half of what little experience the squad had with teenage CBs out of Belgium and Argentina.

It's not like Leverkusen's squad is set to walk into top four anyway and if push comes to shove and the pressure rises there's a good chance that having a squad of young and inconsistent players with little to no leadership will end in a not too unfamiliar way. In fact Kossounou and Frimpong already showed a text book display of youthful naivety on Union's goal. So arguably this approach has already cost Bayer in their very first game.

Obviously Leverkusen can't just sign any top player, but it should be able to spot players who are leadership material here and there if you actively look out for them. Andrich is a transfer that appears to be aimed in that direction, but oddly enough it's where they already have Baumgartlinger and Aranguiz?

To be honest, and while I'm not even sure it would have been a good idea, I half expected the club to make a move at Boateng. Because their back line just screamed out for a grown up last season.
Yes, the squad will be inexperienced but that's something you have to deal with in a transitional process. Bringing in experience is no solution for me. It's a poor shortcut. Look at Demirbay - he played great at Hoffenheim but has been a major liability for us. For me, the reason for that is that he played in a highly specialized role in Hoffenheim that emphasized his strengths and covered his weaknesses. In modern football, it's often the case that a player performs well once he's found his role in a system. Taking him out of this environment and placing him in a different one is always a risk, the same way signing talents is a risk. With the difference being that usually, talents are on lesser wages and have a resale value while it is incredibly hard to move players like Demirbay or Dragovic on since they won't get similarly well paid contracts again.

Moreover, we have had enough inconsistent older players. The Benders themselves, usually labelled role models in professionalism and mentality, were highly inconsistent and always good for a major mistake, Baumgartlinger is inconsistent, Tah is now more inconsistent than as a 19 year old, Hradecky is inconsistent, Bellarabi is inconsistent, Wendell is inconsistent, Aranguiz has become inconsistent (again), Spahic was always good for a red or overcommiting. Inconsistency is often a sign of missing patterns of play and automatisms. Brandt, the inconsistency personified, was suddenly enormously consistent once Bosz took over, and went back to his former self once he left that setup behind. If anything, the most consistent players I've seen at Leverkusen were usually young talents such as Carvajal, Tah, Tapsoba, Havertz, Vidal or even Brandt under Bosz while most established players that stayed with us never made that step.

I believe we have enough players with certain experience with Tah, Aranguiz, Hradecky, Schick, Baumgartlinger and now Andrich. The latter by the way is I believe a player Seoane wants. We don't have a box to box type like him which is why I believe that we signed him for a position we already have enough players in.
 

do.ob

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Yes, the squad will be inexperienced but that's something you have to deal with in a transitional process. Bringing in experience is no solution for me. It's a poor shortcut. Look at Demirbay - he played great at Hoffenheim but has been a major liability for us. For me, the reason for that is that he played in a highly specialized role in Hoffenheim that emphasized his strengths and covered his weaknesses. In modern football, it's often the case that a player performs well once he's found his role in a system. Taking him out of this environment and placing him in a different one is always a risk, the same way signing talents is a risk. With the difference being that usually, talents are on lesser wages and have a resale value while it is incredibly hard to move players like Demirbay or Dragovic on since they won't get similarly well paid contracts again.

Moreover, we have had enough inconsistent older players. The Benders themselves, usually labelled role models in professionalism and mentality, were highly inconsistent and always good for a major mistake, Baumgartlinger is inconsistent, Tah is now more inconsistent than as a 19 year old, Hradecky is inconsistent, Bellarabi is inconsistent, Wendell is inconsistent, Aranguiz has become inconsistent (again), Spahic was always good for a red or overcommiting. Inconsistency is often a sign of missing patterns of play and automatisms. Brandt, the inconsistency personified, was suddenly enormously consistent once Bosz took over, and went back to his former self once he left that setup behind. If anything, the most consistent players I've seen at Leverkusen were usually young talents such as Carvajal, Tah, Tapsoba, Havertz, Vidal or even Brandt under Bosz while most established players that stayed with us never made that step.

I believe we have enough players with certain experience with Tah, Aranguiz, Hradecky, Schick, Baumgartlinger and now Andrich. The latter by the way is I believe a player Seoane wants. We don't have a box to box type like him which is why I believe that we signed him for a position we already have enough players in.
I think it's a bit lazy to just say Leverkusen have signed Demirbay and Dragovic and they flopped, so experience isn't for them or hope that the coach will somehow bring and maintain consistency, or to bring up Bosz as an example, when he couldn't do it for longer than half a season either. On the other hand Gladbach for example seem to have a good mix, some might even see their squad on the old side.

And what are Leverkusen transitioning into exactly? Everything is still possible of course, but there is a good chance they will miss top four for the third time in a row this season. Which will probably mean players like Tabsoba and Diaby will push for a move, because at some point they need to get CL experience. So the transition keeps going? And the year after it will be players like Paulinho or Palacios (assuming they can finally produce a good season)? And then Wirtz?

If your squad is a revolving door you'll tell yourself after every season: "if only we didn't drop those points at the beginning, when everyone was settling in", "if only he would have stayed another season", "if only that teenager didn't make those mistakes in that crucial game". They don't all have to be super stars, but I think it's essential that the club has some players that function as a reliable spine, who give you a certain base level you can build on every season and who (relatively speaking) can keep it together while the young players are crumbling.

It's not like Leverkusen never tried that either, e.g. around the time between Heynckes and Schmidt, where they usually had an "old" CB (Friedrich, then Spahic?), Rolfes and Bender (to a lesser degree Reinarz, if I remember correctly) in CM and then Kießling upfront. Back then they even brought in players such as Hilbert and Boenisch. And if I'm not mistaken that was also round about the time span where they were last top four regulars and a somewhat serious team in Europe.
 
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Zehner

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I think it's a bit lazy to just say Leverkusen have signed Demirbay and Dragovic and they flopped, so experience isn't for them or hope that the coach will somehow bring and maintain consistency, or to bring up Bosz as an example, when he couldn't do it for longer than half a season either. On the other hand Gladbach for example seem to have a good mix, some might even see their squad on the old side.

And what are Leverkusen transitioning into exactly? Everything is still possible of course, but there is a good chance they will miss top four for the third time in a row this season. Which will probably mean players like Tabsoba and Diaby will push for a move, because at some point they need to get CL experience. So the transition keeps going? And the year after it will be players like Paulinho or Palacios (assuming they can finally produce a good season)? And then Wirtz?

If your squad is a revolving door you'll tell yourself after every season: "if only we didn't drop those points at the beginning, when everyone was settling in", "if only had would have stayed another season", "if only that teenager didn't make those mistakes in that crucial game". They don't all have to be super stars, but I think it's essential that the club has some players that function as a reliable spine, who give you a certain base level you can build on every season and who (relatively speaking) can keep it together while the young players are crumbling.

It's not like Leverkusen never tried that either, e.g. around the time between Heynckes and Schmidt, where they usually had a o30 CB (Friedrich, then Spahic?), Rolfes and Bender (to a lesser degree Reinarz, if I remember correctly) and then Kießling upfront. There was even a time when they brought in players such as Hilbert and Boenisch. And if I'm not mistaken that was also round about the time span where they were last top four regulars and a somewhat serious team in Europe.
It's not just Demirbay and Dragovic. Leverkusen has actually signed lots of experienced players (24 and older) over the years. Here are the ones of the last five years alone:

Andrich (€6,5m)
Lunvev (free)
Arias (loan)
Gray (€1m)
Demirbay (€32m)
Weiser (€12m)
Thelin (€1m - loan)
Hradecky (free)
Alario (€24m)
Bender (€12,5m)
Dragovic (€21m)
Volland (€20m)
Baumgartlinger (€4m)
Aranguiz (€13m)
Chicharito (€12m)
Kampl (€11m)
Mehmedi (€8m)

That's huge amounts of money for us and few of those players were worth it. Even those who are deemed successful signings (Aranguiz, Bender, Volland, Chicharito, Hradecky) definitely had question marks behind them and sometimes are the ones to blame for our inconsistency. Aranguiz for instance has as many bad as good seasons, Volland never became what we hoped for, Chicharito went almost half a year without really scoring and Bender wasn't really a reliable defender either and for all his mentality, I think we're better off without him. Kampl is probably the only experienced play we signed who showed good performances from the beginning and he already knew Roger Schmidt by heart when he came here. I also struggle to see where Gladbach, Dortmund or Leipzig were able to sign finished players that really improved them. You could probably make a similar list for Dortmund containing players such as Can, Schulz, Meunier, Alcacer, Schürrle, etc. What I think is different to that is a transfer like Hummels. I would've loved us to sign Boateng but I think now that we signed Kossounou and Hincapie, that won't happen.

And yes, you're correct with you descriptions. I think I differ a bit in that I think this squad is definitely capable of top four and can be expected to achieve it once it has settled in, but the emergence of Leipzig has made it increasingly difficult for us to achieve CL football and that's most likely something we have to deal with. The thing is, building on young, talented players is the best we can do since it is the only way we can punch above our weight.

But this is a general problem of the league, isn't it? I mean, you could describe Dortmund, Gladbach and Leipzig as revolving doors themselves. They can only keep who's not good enough for the absolute elite.
 

do.ob

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It's not just Demirbay and Dragovic. Leverkusen has actually signed lots of experienced players (24 and older) over the years. Here are the ones of the last five years alone:

Andrich (€6,5m)
Lunvev (free)
Arias (loan)
Gray (€1m)
Demirbay (€32m)
Weiser (€12m)
Thelin (€1m - loan)
Hradecky (free)
Alario (€24m)
Bender (€12,5m)
Dragovic (€21m)
Volland (€20m)
Baumgartlinger (€4m)
Aranguiz (€13m)
Chicharito (€12m)
Kampl (€11m)
Mehmedi (€8m)

That's huge amounts of money for us and few of those players were worth it. Even those who are deemed successful signings (Aranguiz, Bender, Volland, Chicharito, Hradecky) definitely had question marks behind them and sometimes are the ones to blame for our inconsistency. Aranguiz for instance has as many bad as good seasons, Volland never became what we hoped for, Chicharito went almost half a year without really scoring and Bender wasn't really a reliable defender either and for all his mentality, I think we're better off without him. Kampl is probably the only experienced play we signed who showed good performances from the beginning and he already knew Roger Schmidt by heart when he came here. I also struggle to see where Gladbach, Dortmund or Leipzig were able to sign finished players that really improved them. You could probably make a similar list for Dortmund containing players such as Can, Schulz, Meunier, Alcacer, Schürrle, etc. What I think is different to that is a transfer like Hummels. I would've loved us to sign Boateng but I think now that we signed Kossounou and Hincapie, that won't happen.

And yes, you're correct with you descriptions. I think I differ a bit in that I think this squad is definitely capable of top four and can be expected to achieve it once it has settled in, but the emergence of Leipzig has made it increasingly difficult for us to achieve CL football and that's most likely something we have to deal with. The thing is, building on young, talented players is the best we can do since it is the only way we can punch above our weight.

But this is a general problem of the league, isn't it? I mean, you could describe Dortmund, Gladbach and Leipzig as revolving doors themselves. They can only keep who's not good enough for the absolute elite.
Again, it's not like all players have to be the pearls of the squad. But Gladbach for example have done an exceptional job in that regard, considering how little they can spend, if anything their squad could actually do with a few more young players. Compared to Leverkusen especially they have a lot of grown ups and it showed in their CL campaign last season and it regularly shows against Bayern.

The nature of Bundesliga's finances is of course a relatively high fluctuation in squads, but at Leipzig, too, you see Gulacsi, Orban, Halstenberg, Klostermann, Sabitzer, Kampl, Forsberg, Poulsen. Some of them don't start every game, but their coach can always default to a set decent players, who have been playing with each other for years.

Dortmund, have burned a lot of money trying to build/enhance their spine, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, it just means you have to be better at it. Having Hummels at the back and Reus upfront is absolutely invaluable and I think losing them will be far more critical than any prodigy that leaves. But there are also other players, e.g. Witsel, (formerly) Piszczek or Hazard. Delaney will be an uncomfortable loss as well.

Some of these examples also show that you don't always have to pay big bucks for this category of players, you can either sign an old guy, who wants to try something new or pick up someone who develops into a stabilizing factor eventually.
 

Zehner

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Again, it's not like all players have to be the pearls of the squad. But Gladbach for example have done an exceptional job in that regard, considering how little they can spend, if anything their squad could actually do with a few more young players. Compared to Leverkusen especially they have a lot of grown ups and it showed in their CL campaign last season and it regularly shows against Bayern.

The nature of Bundesliga's finances is of course a relatively high fluctuation in squads, but at Leipzig, too, you see Gulacsi, Orban, Halstenberg, Klostermann, Sabitzer, Kampl, Forsberg, Poulsen. Some of them don't start every game, but their coach can always default to a set decent players, who have been playing with each other for years.

Dortmund, have burned a lot of money trying to build/enhance their spine, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, it just means you have to be better at it. Having Hummels at the back and Reus upfront is absolutely invaluable and I think losing them will be far more critical than any prodigy that leaves. But there are also other players, e.g. Witsel, (formerly) Piszczek or Hazard. Delaney will be an uncomfortable loss as well.

Some of these examples also show that you don't always have to pay big bucks for this category of players, you can either sign an old guy, who wants to try something new or pick up someone who develops into a stabilizing factor eventually.
I understand what you mean but I don't think you can take shortcuts. The players you refer never grew larger than their clubs. We had similar cases with the Benders but they're out injured often. I think the club currently hopes that Tah becomes a similar figure for us. We also have a few players who have been playing here for years - Aranguiz, Bellarabi, Wendell and Baumgartlinger, to a lesser extent Hradecky as well. The thing is, as Leverkusen you'd probably be losing players of Sabitzer or Forsberg quality, so except for Aranguiz IMO, our established players are a tier below that.

The part where I disagree is that with more players like this, we would be performing better in the CL or against Bayern for instance. The player that cost us the leadership in the table last season in the dying minutes against Bayern was Tah - a 25 year old, very experienced play who's been here for six years. I believe in the previous Bayern game, Bellarabi had literally the worst performances I've ever seen from a professional footballer, and was subbed out at halftime. In the UCL and UEL, it was Hradecky who regularly lost us games since he couldn't control his nerves. Bellarabi and Volland for years were the players who bottled the most important chances. Until last season, Baumgartlinger was notorious among Leverkusen fans for his dropouts. I don't think any other player set up as many opponent chances as him in a Leverkusen dress. Wendell - whose 250 games for us are a record among foreign players - is known for slipping in key moments and has the positional awareness of a brick. Weiser being his counterpart on the other side. I also can't remember how many times I've seen Sven Bender break out of the back four unsuccessfully in a shameful Hummels impression as if he was a youth player.

I mean, I get the image that we are inconsistent and lose our nerves when it matters the most, there's truth to it. But the players who were to blame for that weren't the Kossounous and Hincapies but the experienced ones - those you want us to target.
 

do.ob

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Age alone is of course no guarantee for consistency or leadership and especially in the case of Wendell it seemed foolish not to move him on, because if the player always makes mistakes like an 18 year old you might as well play an 18 year old.
But on the other side you can also try to develop players into stabilizing roles, it's kind of what Leverkusen are trying to do with their Andrich signing, isn't it? Hoping he will adapt to the step up from Union Berlin.
The curious thing is that his former team mate Marvin Friedrich has quite a similar CV and as far as I know a lot of people even expected Leverkusen to come asking for him. But here we are and they now have Aranguiz, Baumgartlinger and Andrich in midfield, while their defense has three CBs and two full backs around the age of 20.
 

Acrobat7

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Btw, are there any rumors at all about Jerome Boateng? He is still way too good to be unemployed so i guess he is holding out for too much money?
 

mazhar13

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Btw, are there any rumors at all about Jerome Boateng? He is still way too good to be unemployed so i guess he is holding out for too much money?
There's been nothing reported on Boateng in recent times. The last thing we knew (from one month ago) was that Sevilla were interested and that United were considering him as a backup option to Varane. Since then, it's been quiet.
 

do.ob

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Btw, are there any rumors at all about Jerome Boateng? He is still way too good to be unemployed so i guess he is holding out for too much money?
Maybe he's waiting for a call from Brazzo?

I read that he's talking to Sevilla.




I guess the big question on everyone's mind is: how on earth will Bayern's defense deal with Moukoko?
 
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BayernFan87

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Could be a very exciting game.

Bayern will struggle with Dortmunds quick counter attacks and Haaland, but that Dortmund defense is nothing I would trust as a Dortmund fan.
 

stefan92

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I guess the big question on everyone's mind is: how on earth will Bayern's defense deal with Moukoko?
Yes... fielding the best striker talent and Haaland besides him :lol:
 

stefan92

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Maybe Lewandowski can pick up a few tricks.



Rose said he still has to work on his fitness.
Depending on Rose's favoured formation and Moukoko's development it is absolutely possible that this becomes a usual sight.
 

Jack-C20

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Had no idea Upamecano had gone to Bayern. Thought the rumours of him coming here had died down though.
 

Mickson

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Dortmund is starting with players born in 2004, 2003, and 2002 (add Haaland to that) against Bayern. Talk about giving youngsters a REAL chance. In competitive, difficult games too. Really trusting them.
 

hellhunter

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Dortmund is starting with players born in 2004, 2003, and 2002 (add Haaland to that) against Bayern. Talk about giving youngsters a REAL chance. In competitive, difficult games too. Really trusting them.
It's the german community shield
 

Minkaro

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Just tuned in. Not sure what the score is though, the graphic is so small.
 

mazhar13

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Dortmund are getting incredibly overwhelmed here. No matter who has the ball in the back line, they just struggle to pass the ball out of the back. How Bayern haven't scored yet, I don't know.