They are both basically 31, they could be in decline by next season. I agree that in terms of player and personality types it makes sense to sign such players, but in the current climate Leverkusen shouldn't need such transfers to make top 4 and they probably won't enable them to win titles either. While Hofmann for 10m is neither here nor there, adding Xhaka for 25m on top just looks a bit incoherent to me in terms of overall strategy.
German Football 22/23 | 2. Bundesliga returns | Hamburg vs Schalke 20:30 |
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I think we played much differently under Alonso when we had the ball compared to Seoane. More patient, more structured, overall more compact. Against the ball we were quite passive probably in order to create space inbehind for our fast runners (who we will most likely lose this summer) to attack. He also changed the build up pattern to a 3-2-5 variant which is typical for the Dutch/Spanish school of football. And then there's also the playstyle he implemented at Real Sociedad when he had the second highest possession of the league and generally played very possession oriented football.
With the transfers we made in mind, I think it is pretty clear where this is going. All purchases are technically strong and comfortable under pressure, work very well against the ball and are tacically disciplined. That's a stark contrast to the players they are replacing (Xhaka <-> Demirbay, Grimaldo <-> Bakker, Hofmann <-> Diaby).
Why wouldn't they enable them to win titles? Frankfurt won a bunch and we came pretty close in the Europa League with a worse team. I'd say Hofmann and Xhaka easily have 2 - 3 good seasons left. They also seem to be highly convinced of Alonso and as it looks he's set to take over Madrid in 2024.
In general, I agree that signing young players are the best strategy to sustainably improve your team but Hofmann and Xhaka are just so good and seemed so far out of reach that I think they're exceptions to this rule.
Frankfurt aren't a good benchmark: going by their league performances they rarely were a particularly great team. They do however seem to draw momentum and confidence from their fans, because they are the kind of supporters, who will show up with 30k fans in Barcelona. Leverkusen however struggle to show up with 30k fans at home. They can't build that kind of momentum.
I think everyone agrees they won't win the league
They are the 4th best team in Germany at best on paper, winning a cup is not entirely impossible, but how much of your own money would you bet on that happening in the next two years?
In the EL they had a fortunate draw, then had little idea what to do against Roma. Not a great sign towards future glory..
The squad is also the opposite of a cup team. Hradecky specializes in embarrassing cup moments, the CBs are error prone and aside from Wirtz the attackers don't seem very "clutch" either.
I mean.. Elversberg? Karlsruhe (massive Club, but still..)
On top of that you're also predicting a shift away from counter attacking football towards a more dominant football, which won't help either.
Tl;dr: lads.. it's Leverkusen..
If fan support would carry a team as much as you claim, Dortmund would have won a few more titles in the last decade than they did
That aside, I fully disagree that a positional play system makes you less likely to win titles. It's the most successful approach to the game right now even if most German fans remain skeptical and seem to prefer pure pressing and transition systems for whatever reasons
If fan support would carry a team as much as you claim, Dortmund would have won a few more titles in the last decade than they did
That aside, I fully disagree that a positional play system makes you less likely to win titles. It's the most successful approach to the game right now even if most German fans remain skeptical and seem to prefer pure pressing and transition systems for whatever reasons
Frankfurt have taken this to another level in Europe. Kudos to them for that.
The CL gets dominated by Real Madrid, I wouldn't call them focused on positional football (relatively speaking).
The EL gets dominated by Sevilla, I wouldn't call them focused on positional football either.
Mourinho is the antithesis of positional football, yet he does relatively well in the lesser European competitions with Roma. On the otherh hand Pep, for all his legendary succes in league football, has massively underachieved in the CL in comparison. Spain play silky football on the international stage, yet they haven't come close to success past their golden generation. France and England play bland football and make finals. I don't think it's a particularly hot take to state that positional football is more effective (at the top end) in a league setting, while a more counter / pressing / pragmatic approach is usually more (cost-) effective in cup settings, where the the last/current game is the only thing that counts.
Hradecky won the cup with Frankfurt...
And then he was assimilated. Seriously though.. I think his mistakes speak for himself. Having a stable GK is a given when you want to succeed in cup competitions, because every single goal can be fatal. He just isn't and to make things worse there seems to be an element of pressure to his mistakes. I don't know, maybe he's a net positive over 34 games and that's why they keep him around in a prominent role. But if you're serious about cup competitions I think he should have been out quite some time ago.
It's not even just the late stage cup games, "insane" mistakes in fairly low profile CL games:
Against Moscow especially. A classic European night. Leverkusen fans have shown up in force, 26000 fans have made it, BayArena is cooking, almost bursting at the seams, the opponent is not to be disrespected, but very beatable at the same time and then Hradecky just does his thing.
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It´s remarkable how someone whose team produced one of the biggest bottlejobs in German football history just 2 months ago can so confidently talk down other teams "clutch" qualities.
Cup competitions always involve luck. You claim Guardiola has underperformed in the UCL yet he has the highest PPG out of every manager in this competition. Let alone his three UCL wins which only a handful of managers can match, most of them much older than Pep. He pretty much guarantees you the semis. The manager with the third best PPG by the way is Lous van Gaal.
Frankfurt have taken this to another level in Europe. Kudos to them for that.
The CL gets dominated by Real Madrid, I wouldn't call them focused on positional football (relatively speaking).
The EL gets dominated by Sevilla, I wouldn't call them focused on positional football either.
Mourinho is the antithesis of positional football, yet he does relatively well in the lesser European competitions with Roma. On the otherh hand Pep, for all his legendary succes in league football, has massively underachieved in the CL in comparison. Spain play silky football on the international stage, yet they haven't come close to success past their golden generation. France and England play bland football and make finals. I don't think it's a particularly hot take to state that positional football is more effective (at the top end) in a league setting, while a more counter / pressing / pragmatic approach is usually more (cost-) effective in cup settings, where the the last/current game is the only thing that counts.
I'd also argue that every team playing Kroos and Modric in midfield automatically has an emphasis on positional play
Even Liverpool under Klopp (even his Dortmund side) adapted many concepts of this style. And on international level, the most successful team in recent history is the one which made the term 'tiki taka' popular.That's not contradicting my argument: what do you do in a league setting? Chuck out wins against weaker oppoisition. That's what he did in the CL, too. Then came some halfway serious team and usually he lost (Monaco!, Spurs!, Lyon! 0:4 against Madrid, 0:3 against Barca, 0:3 against Liverpool. Despite crusing the league most years. It's not necessarily an embarassaing record, but it's decidedly weaker than his league performance.
Having world class players doesn't constitute a tactical concept. Ancelotti has had mediocre performances in leagues most years - relative to his cup exploits. Bayern made him look like Kovac, precisely because he was so pragmatic and unlike Guardiola. Both are almost inverse versions of each other.I'd also argue that every team playing Kroos and Modric in midfield automatically has an emphasis on positional play
Dortmund choked against Mainz, I said it. But if you can't engage with arugments, maybe it's better not to reply.
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Don't you think you're being a bit harsh on Guardiola here? In his fifteen years as a coach, he has won three UCLs. Who had won more at this stage of his career except for Zidane? Especially since he's also been dominating top level opposition in England for years.
So yes, you can win a cup competition with a different kind of football and yes, you have better chances of winning a cup than winning a league against succh teams. But the reason for that is that cups are relatively more difficult to win for top teams since the factor luck is more important. And while the better team will always want to minimize luck, the worse team has to bank on it.
A mature Xhaka, with his most recent Arsenal experiences, might lead Leverkusen to past glories. Like a few second places.
There are no two opinions about his Barca side, but - to bring this back to the original topic - you think Guardiola, being the best coach in the world and always having one of the best squads in the world, getting to two finals in 10 years and having a rather embarassing exit in half of these years, proves that this is an avenue to success for .. wait for it ... Leverkusen?
hater!
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In my eyes Pep has learned a lesson over the years, too. He has mixed his style, too.
And to have a good ball possession game you need to have a good positional play. For me positional play and a good game in possession is something you really need as a big team as it gives you more "energy saving" moments. It is more a defensive method - not an offensive one.
The biggest art is in my eyes: when to press and how vertical you play to create the best chances. When I look at Bayern I miss that orchestrator on the six that dictates play. Kimmich is all about vertical play - he is nobody who thinks too much about saving energy - maybe because he is a "Duracell rabbit". That is why Bayern really need another six that can play with the ball (and not just against) and has a defensive sense in combination with Kimmich. I think that even is more important than the no. 9 - so the 9 will be nice, too.
And to have a good ball possession game you need to have a good positional play. For me positional play and a good game in possession is something you really need as a big team as it gives you more "energy saving" moments. It is more a defensive method - not an offensive one.
The biggest art is in my eyes: when to press and how vertical you play to create the best chances. When I look at Bayern I miss that orchestrator on the six that dictates play. Kimmich is all about vertical play - he is nobody who thinks too much about saving energy - maybe because he is a "Duracell rabbit". That is why Bayern really need another six that can play with the ball (and not just against) and has a defensive sense in combination with Kimmich. I think that even is more important than the no. 9 - so the 9 will be nice, too.
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For every team, actually. This season you could also name Brighton or Napoli.
What about them? Napoli actually lost their first game in the Coppa Italia against Cremonese, who had 30% possession. In the CL they beat a weak Frankfurt and then went out to a team that finished 20 points behind them in Serie A and had 26% possession.
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Yeah, and won countless games against individually equal or better opposition along the way, same for Brighton.
Don't sell yourself short, I'm sure you can count to one if you put your mind to it
You think Brighton has only won one game against an individually better opponent last season?
We were talking about cup games. I was talking about Napoli.
Correct me if I'm wrong but your argument was that positional play is good at getting you results against worse teams, hence it is suited for league conpetitions in which a top team faces many of those. Napoli and especially Brighton winning so many uphill battles contradicts that. And those are only examples from this season, you could also name Leeds under Bielsa or Holstein Kiel under Werner as recent practices.
My argument is that taking positional football to extremes comes with great individual responsibilities for almost every single player, because you're trying to play your way through the opponents pressure and you're bound to expose a ton of space behind you, which you can only control by everyone being sharp as a whip when handling the ball and during transitions and your defenders are bound to get at least a few situations, where a attackers gets to run at them with no one else around to help. So it's one thing to take those risks when you're stronger man for man, but it's another matter entirely when you're asking your players to carry that responsibility against stronger opponents and even more so, when you do it in a cup setting, where nerves get added to the equation. Just think about the work Neuer had to do even when the elite teams in front of him were peaking, now imagine it's Hradecky carrying that kind of individual responsibility, to execute his sweeping (build up) perfectly.
And what are you talking about with Napoli winning "so many uphill battles"? They probably had the strongest squad in Italy this season, so technically there were no uphill battles for them. And against their closest competition they traded wins with the three teams behind them and went out to Milan in the CL.
Whatever some small clubs that no one takes seriously do in the league or what Ole Werner did in 2. Bundesliga doesn't compare to a team trying to win one of the elite cup competitions. It's a different setting entirely.
In my opinion positional football only works well, when you have very good players. But if you do, it is the best system.
Ah, never get in the way of Leverkusen and Dortmund fans getting into a fight. Where is my popcorn? 
Which is probably why we go for highly reliable and tactically disciplined players and sell the ones which are hit and miss like Bakker, Demirbay, Amiri and likely Diaby. Hradecky is also about to be replaced.
Would you have said that a year ago as well? Osimhen was a promising young player, Kvaradona, Kim and Zambo came basically out of nowhere. It's the system that allowed them to shine as much.
The underlying question is whether you can play the system successfully if you are the underdog in a match. And I delivered you examples for that. When you see how great Brighton plays (best build up play in the world according to a certain someone), it is clear to me that you don't need to be world class to make it work.
By the way, you could also name Ajax' UCL run under Ten Hag a couple of years ago when they dominated an individually much better Real Madrid team.
I would rather say the right players, not necessarily very good ones. It is difficult to play it with erratic players but the basics of positional football don't require technical excellence or great athleticism, just discipline in following tactical instructions and clean first touch and short passing. You want players who are doing the easy things right 90% of the time, not those who are good at the extraordinary but have a tendency to mess up the easy stuff.
My friend, players, who have that kind of reliability both with and without the ball are out of Leverkusen's reach by several tens of millions.
They didn't come out of nowhere and the fact that elite clubs are willing to pay good money for them implies that they have genuine individual quality.
Brighton finishing 6th proves about as much as Union Berlin finishing 4th. Sweet nothing for bigger clubs. Ajax beating Real once means about as much as Mourinho beating Ajax with soul crushing hoofball.
Players, who are both highly reliable on the ball and during transitions are by definition very good and no one in Germany aside from Bayern can expect to straight up buy them. I mean look at the GK position, there it's clearest: You'll need someone, who is great at sweeping, so you can play a high line, he needs to be good with the ball, so you can methodically outplay teams during build up and I guess he shouldn't be bad as a shot stopper either. What room is left to not be a very good player, that's way out of Leverkusen's reach?
Those three cost €50m in fees combined. Is that out Leverkusen's reach? Is Brighton's team?
It proves that you don't need world class players in every position to play a positional play system. Honestly, watch a Brighton compilation or tactical analysis and see yourself how mediocre players can execute brillant build up patterns consisting of simple plays. That may not elevate them to EPL contenders but they punch above their weight in a way no other system could enable them to.
Can't you see how you contradict yourself? You claim that positional play systems are only suitable to top clubs like Bayern, yet I have given you examples of both worse and better teams that achieved big successes relative to their respective preconditions. So I guess now Leverkusen is both too bad and too good to implement one?
To be honest, I only think you argue this illogically because Dortmund has chosen a different approach so agreeing with me would imply your club was wrong in doing so.
Thats the thing, he expects us to play Guardiola-esque football but fails to see that we dont come close in terms of player quality. Every coach needs to adapt to the players he has and for us its just not possible to play this style of football consistently. Bosz tried it and failed miserably in the end, same thing that happened with him at Dortmund.
No, I don't fail to see that we don't come close in terms of player quality, I argue that you don't require world class players to play this style of football.
I also disagree with the notion that Bosz failed miserably.
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- "the possibility to grant benefactor exemptions will be deleted from the League Statutes"
- Moreover, with regard to the benefactor exemptions that DFL has already granted to the three football clubs TSG Hoffenheim, Bayer Leverkusen and VfL Wolfsburg, the status quo will be protected, on stricter conditions: the clubs will not only have to continue to comply with existing conditions but also be obliged to allow more members to participate and to share the benefits by paying a compensation amount
- Allowing members to participate in a way approximately similar to that of football clubs adhering to the 50+1 rule is to be achieved, according to the commitments suggested, by requiring the exempted clubs to allow members of their former parent clubs to participate and to offer them transparency through indirect co-decision rights. This firstly involves the right of the former parent clubs to appoint members to the decision-making bodies of the exempted clubs. Secondly, the former parent clubs are to be given veto rights regarding changes to characteristic features defining the relevant club’s identity or essence. Such changes include, for example, changes to the club’s crest, significant reductions of the standing capacities or the voluntary withdrawal from DFL competitions, namely Bundesliga and Bundesliga 2.
Not a lot changed, did it? Leipzig got away scot free, the other plastics have to loop in their many fans, which probably won't change a thing. No further execptions sounds nice, but what is that worth, when Leipzig's model got a pass? Financial compensation is definitely a step in the right direction, but I doubt it's going to come close to proper compensation for the continued presence of these clubs.
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There have been some curious reports in the media recently:
First they reported that Kehl, as the DoF, was very eager to sign Alvarez and put a lot of energy into that signing (e.g. meetings with the player), only to have Terzic veto it.
Now Bild are reporting that transfer decisions are complicated, because Terzic wants to sign physical players and Kehl wants to sign technical players.
Even if we believe Bild on this one, that things are so simple and polarized, it sounds a bit ironic, since as far as I'm aware Alvarez would decidedly fit into the physical, rather than the technical, category.
Still, there's no denying that it looks like the window hasn't gone fully according to plan thus far:
There seems to have been very concrete interest in signing Alvarez and Fresneda, which both appear to have fallen through. The club made about €110m upfront from selling Knauff and Bellingham and only spent €30m on Nmecha, so there should still be at least €30m to €40m left in the budget. Pre-season already begun and usually the business is mostly done by then, so by that standard things are already in delay.
I think in general Terzic is being set up with a target on his back at the moment. Things were going to be slightly tricky for him anyway, since I don't think it's realistic to expect the good run of 2023 to just carry over into the new season, yet that's what he will be measured against. But now the press is also starting to portrait him as responsible for a transfer window that doesn't seem to be going entirely well and with narratives that are easy to latch on to for your average pundit. For example the controversial Nmecha is now being called his transfer, according to some reports it's supposedly him alone, who canceled Alvarez and now there's this very simplistic Kehl = technical, Terzic = physical narrative.
So now most "analysis" will probably be "would this have happened if Kehl had his way?"-.
First they reported that Kehl, as the DoF, was very eager to sign Alvarez and put a lot of energy into that signing (e.g. meetings with the player), only to have Terzic veto it.
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Now Bild are reporting that transfer decisions are complicated, because Terzic wants to sign physical players and Kehl wants to sign technical players.
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Even if we believe Bild on this one, that things are so simple and polarized, it sounds a bit ironic, since as far as I'm aware Alvarez would decidedly fit into the physical, rather than the technical, category.
Still, there's no denying that it looks like the window hasn't gone fully according to plan thus far:
There seems to have been very concrete interest in signing Alvarez and Fresneda, which both appear to have fallen through. The club made about €110m upfront from selling Knauff and Bellingham and only spent €30m on Nmecha, so there should still be at least €30m to €40m left in the budget. Pre-season already begun and usually the business is mostly done by then, so by that standard things are already in delay.
I think in general Terzic is being set up with a target on his back at the moment. Things were going to be slightly tricky for him anyway, since I don't think it's realistic to expect the good run of 2023 to just carry over into the new season, yet that's what he will be measured against. But now the press is also starting to portrait him as responsible for a transfer window that doesn't seem to be going entirely well and with narratives that are easy to latch on to for your average pundit. For example the controversial Nmecha is now being called his transfer, according to some reports it's supposedly him alone, who canceled Alvarez and now there's this very simplistic Kehl = technical, Terzic = physical narrative.
So now most "analysis" will probably be "would this have happened if Kehl had his way?"-.
BVB Hollywood? Popcorn gif
Calm down, son. There hasn't even been a fist fight yet.
If there's one upcoming, it would explain why Terzic wants physical players, though.
I'd that was the strategy it would be pretty stupid to sign someone, who has the religious obligation to turn the other cheek.
Yeah, I guess Nmecha isn't really into spanking other men
Would doubt that. If I get it right he is more into evangelical religious believings - and they are more into "an eye for an eye - a tooth for a tooth"
Hope Terzic let's him man mark Mané, then
Who hopefully is already gone by that time...