German Football 22/23 | 2. Bundesliga returns | Hamburg vs Schalke 20:30 |

[Zehner]

Like I said there's also plenty of things I don't agree with and privilege and entitlement or emotion and excess are two sides of the the same respective coins.

But Pyro? Everyone seems more than happy to use the images for marketing, clubs seem happy to pay the fines, but during the live moment people act like someone got stabbed and of course there's the mandatory "terrible images.. these people are idiots .. not fans.." . I don't need it and I think the insistence on it is childish, but there is something very dishonest about how it gets discussed.

Violence? Police statistics put the number of injured people usually at around 1200 per year, that includes every game played in every competition by the 68 clubs of the first two divisions, plus Germany games. At the last Oktoberfest 6500 people needed medical attention.

And I don't know what goes on in Leverkusen, once the massive crowds really get cooking, but I see a ton of women and children at football games, I see old and young people and I've never had reason to fear for my safety. Would I take a kid into the ultra block? Definitely not, but there's still the entire rest of the stadium. According to Statista 50 million FIFTY MILLION consider themselves football fans in Germany and you write "unpopularity among huge parts of the society. The sport for everyone indeed".

So yes, I think the positives of organized fans, some of which I listed above, far outweigh the negatives.

If you think violence is no problem among ultras then I invite you to walk through Köln Müngersdorf or over the Jahnwiesen in a Gladbach shirt on match day

And it doesn't matter if pyro is good or bad or whether the clubs use the imagery. Fact of the matter, it is forbidden and dangerous in the wrong hands, so those people feel entitled to break the law because of some stupid tribalism. The same way they feel entitled to insult and threaten people they don't like - be it because they are wearing the wrong shirt at the wrong place or chose to spend their money on a football project they antagonize. That's completely against freedom of speech and - you know - integrity. And if you discuss such topics with ultras, most of them give you an answer like "well, you only have yourself to blame if you provoke them" - like what the feck? You think it's alright to assault somebody because he's wearing the wrong clothes or supporting the wrong club? The same you who just said moments before that you don't "choose" a club but "the club chooses you"? People like this are self entitled manchilds at best and straight out fascists at worst. So yeah, I don't give a feck if they are good at yelling. Get your priorities straight.

 

[do.ob]

If you think violence is no problem among ultras then I invite you to walk through Köln Müngersdorf or over the Jahnwiesen in a Gladbach shirt on match day

And it doesn't matter if pyro is good or bad or whether the clubs use the imagery. Fact of the matter, it is forbidden and dangerous in the wrong hands, so those people feel entitled to break the law because of some stupid tribalism. The same way they feel entitled to insult and threaten people they don't like - be it because they are wearing the wrong shirt at the wrong place or chose to spend their money on a football project they antagonize. That's completely against freedom of speech and - you know - integrity. And if you discuss such topics with ultras, most of them give you an answer like "well, you only have yourself to blame if you provoke them" - like what the feck? You think it's alright to assault somebody because he's wearing the wrong clothes or supporting the wrong club? The same you who just said moments before that you don't "choose" a club but "the club chooses you"? People like this are self entitled manchilds at best and straight out fascists at worst. So yeah, I don't give a feck if they are good at yelling. Get your priorities straight.

Sorry, I have to ask: walking around Köln's stadium in a Gladbach shirt interviewing ultras is a hobby of yours? Enjoying the atmosphere?

I think the number of around 1200 injured fans against against a combined attendance of probably well over 20,000,000 speaks for itself with regards to safety in stadiums. That doesn't mean there aren't problems or clubs and authorities shouldn't look into ways of improving things, but on the whole watching a football game is a pretty safe affair, especially considering the emotions and boozing involved.
Not to mention that not everyone who does something stupid at games does so because he's an ultra. Or is an ultra at all.

 

[Kasper]

Meanwhile Bobic seems to have given an absolute banger of an interview:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Public broadcast as "Compulsive pay TV" What a bellend

 

[Zehner]

Sorry, I have to ask: walking around Köln's stadium in a Gladbach shirt interviewing ultras is a hobby of yours? Enjoying the atmosphere?

Who knows? Fact of the matter, if that's want I want to do I have every fecking right to do it without having to fear being harmed since this is covered by my freedom of speech. Or do you think the victim of an assault is to blame because he/she provoked the attacker by his/her choice of clothing?

I think the number of around 1200 injured fans against against a combined attendance of probably well over 20,000,000 speaks for itself with regards to safety in stadiums. That doesn't mean there aren't problems or clubs and authorities shouldn't look into ways of improving things, but on the whole watching a football game is a pretty safe affair, especially considering the emotions and boozing involved.
Not to mention that not everyone who does something stupid at games does so because he's an ultra. Or is an ultra at all.

No, it doesn't speak for itself because it is only so low since reasonable people avoid conflicts with ultras - not always successfully. Not in a million years I'd even think about beating someone up because he expresses himself as a fan of a rival club. It's ridiculous that you have to follow the "rules" of some degenerated idiots who think you are in their "territory" when you visit a stadium.

 

[do.ob]

Who knows? Fact of the matter, if that's want I want to do I have every fecking right to do it without having to fear being harmed since this is covered by my freedom of speech. Or do you think the victim of an assault is to blame because he/she provoked the attacker by his/her choice of clothing?




No, it doesn't speak for itself because it is only so low since reasonable people avoid conflicts with ultras - not always successfully. Not in a million years I'd even think about beating someone up because he expresses himself as a fan of a rival club. It's ridiculous that you have to follow the "rules" of some degenerated idiots who think you are in their "territory" when you visit a stadium.

As opposed to seeking out conflicts? And these "rules" are they written down somewhere? They must be if everyone is following them?

 

[Zehner]

As opposed to seeking out conflicts? And these "rules" are they written down somewhere? They must be if everyone is following them?

Even if a Gladbach fan enters a FC pub to proclaim to everybody how much he dislikes there clubs and that goats are really ugly animals and smell terribly, that gives nobody the right to attack or intimidate him. That's how democracy works. As I said: Get your priorities straight. Football is a nice little hobby, nobody should fear to be beaten up because of it.

And yes, there are rules, written or unwritten. At this point I wonder if you ever had any contact with ultras

 

[strongwalker]

Even if a Gladbach fan enters a FC pub to proclaim to everybody how much he dislikes there clubs and that goats are really ugly animals and smell terribly, that gives nobody the right to attack or intimidate him.

i wonder in what Universe, behavior like this would not lead to getting your teeth fixed.. well maybe in Leverkusen

on unrelated news, Bayern extended the sponsorship deal with Telekom for another 4 years at improved payments, went up from 45/a to 50/a making it another 200Mio in the Festgeldkonto.

 

[Zehner]

i wonder in what Universe, behavior like this would not lead to getting your teeth fixed

Many manly men in here I see.

 

[do.ob]

Even if a Gladbach fan enters a FC pub to proclaim to everybody how much he dislikes there clubs and that goats are really ugly animals and smell terribly, that gives nobody the right to attack or intimidate him. That's how democracy works. As I said: Get your priorities straight. Football is a nice little hobby, nobody should fear to be beaten up because of it.

And yes, there are rules, written or unwritten. At this point I wonder if you ever had any contact with ultras

I think your argument is getting a bit weird: you're always putting yourself in (a bit of) danger if you actively try to provoke a group of men, no matter what context. It has nothing to do with ultras or even football, it's just how people generally behave. That doesn't mean anyone has the right to beat you up for it, but it's a foreseeable outcome and hence most people choose to avoid it. If you try to do that while police are around they would probably have a little chat with you and before nicely suggesting you to spend the rest of the day somewhere else.

And I'm asking you about specific rules, because in order to follow them people need to be actually aware of them and I think the vast majority of fans, who aren't part of that scene themselves, have no idea what some groups from other clubs may have come up with.

 

[Zehner]

I think your argument is getting a bit weird: you're always putting yourself in (a bit of) danger if you actively try to provoke a group of men, no matter what context. It has nothing to do with ultras or even football, it's just how people generally behave. That doesn't mean anyone has the right to beat you up for it, but it's a foreseeable outcome and hence most people choose to avoid it. If you try to do that while police are around they would probably have a little chat with you and before nicely suggesting you to spend the rest of the day somewhere else.

And I'm asking you about specific rules, because in order to follow them people need to be actually aware of them and I think the vast majority of fans, who aren't part of that scene themselves, have no idea what some groups from other clubs may have come up with.

My argument is simply "everybody who is willing to hurt somebody because of some irrelevant thing like football is an asshole". I don't see how this is weird. And no, it is not how people generally behave. Yes, if you provoke a group of drunk males, chances are it escalates but still. I have no respect for anybody who hits somebody because of football, drunk or not.

"Rules" might have been the wrong wording. They definitely do have rules (for instance, I know a guy who wanted to found his own ultra group and asked a capo of a bigger group for his blessing, as if the guy was some sort of king) but I meant it more in the sense of "when you're in the stadium, you know not to cross them" because ultras perceive the stadium and "their" bars as their territory and expect you to submit to that. Remember how the, I believe, Roma ultras, bitch slapped pitch invaders?

 

[Cheimoon]

I think your argument is getting a bit weird: you're always putting yourself in (a bit of) danger if you actively try to provoke a group of men, no matter what context. It has nothing to do with ultras or even football, it's just how people generally behave. That doesn't mean anyone has the right to beat you up for it, but it's a foreseeable outcome and hence most people choose to avoid it. If you try to do that while police are around they would probably have a little chat with you and before nicely suggesting you to spend the rest of the day somewhere else.

And I'm asking you about specific rules, because in order to follow them people need to be actually aware of them and I think the vast majority of fans, who aren't part of that scene themselves, have no idea what some groups from other clubs may have come up with.

It feels like you're being thick on purpose here. Of course there are no written rules, but it definitely is common knowledge that you need to be particularly careful among groups of supporters of football clubs. And yes, this is very specific to football clubs; there is no similar rioting in other sports. (Or not that I'm aware of.)

In fact, it's very specific to European football. Hockey fans (ice hockey fans for you) are very passionate and loud, and there are numerous strong rivalries across the NHL. Yet there is no such thing as away sections in arenas; fans are sitting mixed everywhere. And while there may be spicy verbal exchanges when there's a Bruins fans in the middle of a group of Habs fans, there will be no sense of threat, and it would be all over the news if this got physical. Imagine that in European football. If a Schalke fan would sit in a Dortmund section and would get beaten up, everyone would blame the Schalke fan for being so stupid - which is basically exactly your line of reasoning here.

The acceptance in Europe of the physical threat that groups of football fans pose is absolutely ridiculous. Growing up in the Netherlands, I also was used to hooliganism as a simple fact of life, and assumed it's something that just comes with sports. But living in Canada, I have come to learn that that's actually nonsense, and I am now rather wondering how things turned out this way in Europe. Yet in Europe, that discussion doesn't seem to be had - and you're also basically laughing it away here.

In short, I know you mentioned the good things that Ultras have accomplished, but why would any of their engagement have to come with this ever-present sense of physical force?

Even if a Gladbach fan enters a FC pub to proclaim to everybody how much he dislikes there clubs and that goats are really ugly animals and smell terribly, that gives nobody the right to attack or intimidate him. That's how democracy works. As I said: Get your priorities straight. Football is a nice little hobby, nobody should fear to be beaten up because of it.

Because I'm a nitpicker and dislike how people misuse this particular word: it's got nothing to do with democracy (which is a sytem of political organization), but I otherwise fully agree with you.

 

[Zehner]

It feels like you're being thick on purpose here. Of course there are no written rules, but it definitely is common knowledge that you need to be particularly careful among groups of supporters of football clubs. And yes, this is very specific to football clubs; there is no similar rioting in other sports. (Or not that I'm aware of.)

In fact, it's very specific to European football. Hockey fans (ice hockey fans for you) are very passionate and loud, and there are numerous strong rivalries across the NHL. Yet there is no such thing as away sections in arenas; fans are sitting mixed everywhere. And while there may be spicy verbal exchanges when there's a Bruins fans in the middle of a group of Habs fans, there will be no sense of threat, and it would be all over the news if this got physical. Imagine that in European football. If a Schalke fan would sit in a Dortmund section and would get beaten up, everyone would blame the Schalke fan for being so stupid - which is basically exactly your line of reasoning here.

The acceptance in Europe of the physical threat that groups of football fans pose is absolutely ridiculous. Growing up in the Netherlands, I also was used to hooliganism as a simple fact of life, and assumed it's something that just comes with sports. But living in Canada, I have come to learn that that's actually nonsense, and I am now rather wondering how things turned out this way in Europe. Yet in Europe, that discussion doesn't seem to be had - and you're also basically laughing it away here.

In short, I know you mentioned the good things that Ultras have accomplished, but why would any of their engagement have to come with this ever-present sense of physical force?

Because I'm a nitpicker and dislike how people misuse this particular word: it's got nothing to do with democracy (which is a sytem of political organization), but I otherwise fully agree with you.

Completely on point and very well worded

 

[do.ob]

It feels like you're being thick on purpose here. Of course there are no written rules, but it definitely is common knowledge that you need to be particularly careful among groups of supporters of football clubs. And yes, this is very specific to football clubs; there is no similar rioting in other sports. (Or not that I'm aware of.)

In fact, it's very specific to European football. Hockey fans (ice hockey fans for you) are very passionate and loud, and there are numerous strong rivalries across the NHL. Yet there is no such thing as away sections in arenas; fans are sitting mixed everywhere. And while there may be spicy verbal exchanges when there's a Bruins fans in the middle of a group of Habs fans, there will be no sense of threat, and it would be all over the news if this got physical. Imagine that in European football. If a Schalke fan would sit in a Dortmund section and would get beaten up, everyone would blame the Schalke fan for being so stupid - which is basically exactly your line of reasoning here.

The acceptance in Europe of the physical threat that groups of football fans pose is absolutely ridiculous. Growing up in the Netherlands, I also was used to hooliganism as a simple fact of life, and assumed it's something that just comes with sports. But living in Canada, I have come to learn that that's actually nonsense, and I am now rather wondering how things turned out this way in Europe. Yet in Europe, that discussion doesn't seem to be had - and you're also basically laughing it away here.

In short, I know you mentioned the good things that Ultras have accomplished, but why would any of their engagement have to come with this ever-present sense of physical force?

Because I'm a nitpicker and dislike how people misuse this particular word: it's got nothing to do with democracy (which is a sytem of political organization), but I otherwise fully agree with you.

I'm "laughing away" the notion that organized fans supposedly keep families away from stadiums and make the sport unpopular in society, because I regularly experience evidence to the contrary. I'm not saying there aren't issues to address and a certain "outlaw mentality" is chief among them, but I think if you stack up positives and negatives up against each other the former outweigh the latter. I also think that aggression and violence is not something that modern fan groups introduced into the game or exclusively propagate (see England fans, or the behavior of a few individual club fans towards the end of the PL season - despite the English having done their best to kill fan culture at club level, let alone any organized support groups on a German scale).

As for your comparison to other sports:
That's an interesting question, but I don't have enough knowledge of hockey to make a comparison - other than pointing out that it's a 34km drive from Schalke's to Dortmund's stadium, whereas 494km between the two hockey clubs you brought up. Which is about the same distance as Dortmund has to Berlin and on that scale you don't really have rivalries either, because the intensity in no small part stems from proximity.

 

[Cheimoon]

I'm "laughing away" the notion that organized fans supposedly keep families away from stadiums and make the sport unpopular in society, because I regularly experience evidence to the contrary. I'm not saying there aren't issues to address and a certain "outlaw mentality" is chief among them, but I think if you stack up positives and negatives up against each other the former outweigh the latter. I also think that aggression and violence is not something that modern fan groups introduced into the game or exclusively propagate (see England fans, or the behavior of a few individual club fans towards the end of the PL season - despite the English having done their best to kill fan culture at club level, let alone any organized support groups on a German scale).

Both can be true though: that families feel safe going to stadiums, as they know where to go/not go and hence won't run into issues; and also that it's weird/bad that you have to have that kind of knowledge.

I'm not saying that aggression and violence around football are new. If anything, certainly in the Netherlands and the UK (not sure about Germany), they are much less prevalent now than they were in, say, the 80s and 90s. That doesn't mean it's gone though, and I don't see why you have to take the positives with the negatives. Why can't we just get rid of the negatives? (Given that you don't have them the same way in other sports or in North America.)

The fan culture thing is a more complex point, yeah. Essentially, in the UK, it has been chased out of stadiums through all the stadium changes and accompanying price increases, which largely restricted being able to watch football in a stadium to the sedated middle classes. (Even if that's a simplification of hooliganism.) The fighting culture remains though, it's just not as focused on stadiums anymore. That's becoming a much wider point though.

As for your comparison to other sports:
That's an interesting question, but I don't have enough knowledge of hockey to make a comparison - other than pointing out that it's a 34km drive from Schalke's to Dortmund's stadium, whereas 494km between the two hockey clubs you brought up. Which is about the same distance as Dortmund has to Berlin and on that scale you don't really have rivalries either, because the intensity in no small part stems from proximity.

Yeah, I should have used another example - cause it's not limited to rivalries. Sitting a Rangers fan in the hardcore Frankfurt section at the Seville EC final (or the other way round) also likely wouldn't have ended well; and those clubs and their fan bases have absolutely no relationship. The geographical stuff or regional rivalry really isn't the point here, to my mind.

 

[strongwalker]

Many manly men in here I see.

you could try doing that kind of assholery in the weekly meeting of the feminist vegan group, go in there tell them they all suck etc, please report your test reults (with pictures)

 

[strongwalker]

Both can be true though: that families feel safe going to stadiums, as they know where to go/not go and hence won't run into issues; and also that it's weird/bad that you have to have that kind of knowledge.

This sound as if there were "no go" areas. Thing is, as a normal stadium goer you wont even come in close contact with the Ultra group. They are sticking to their blocks and you wont by chance get sold a ticket in there. Also, they usually gather outside the stadium and go in "en bloc". Ive held my season ticket since 1993 or so and i've never even first hand witnessed an Ultra vs Ultra escalation.
My own seat is in an area where many ex-Ultras or their predecessors ("Südkurve 72" people)went when they "retired" from the Kurve. In our block, we often have away supporters as some of the tickets are in open sales. Families etc. You see families there where every memember wears a jersey from a different team.
They are left alone, they can wear whatever jersey they want, they can cheer for their team all they want, no one cares. The line is drawn if someone tries to provoke, then he is told that he is in a Bayern block and should behave.

 

[Acrobat7]

My argument is simply "everybody who is willing to hurt somebody because of some irrelevant thing like football is an asshole". I don't see how this is weird. And no, it is not how people generally behave. Yes, if you provoke a group of drunk males, chances are it escalates but still. I have no respect for anybody who hits somebody because of football, drunk or not.

I absolutely co-sign this. "Shouldn't have worn the other team's colours" is victim blaming.

 

[do.ob]

Both can be true though: that families feel safe going to stadiums, as they know where to go/not go and hence won't run into issues; and also that it's weird/bad that you have to have that kind of knowledge.

I'm not saying that aggression and violence around football are new. If anything, certainly in the Netherlands and the UK (not sure about Germany), they are much less prevalent now than they were in, say, the 80s and 90s. That doesn't mean it's gone though, and I don't see why you have to take the positives with the negatives. Why can't we just get rid of the negatives? (Given that you don't have them the same way in other sports or in North America.)

The fan culture thing is a more complex point, yeah. Essentially, in the UK, it has been chased out of stadiums through all the stadium changes and accompanying price increases, which largely restricted being able to watch football in a stadium to the sedated middle classes. (Even if that's a simplification of hooliganism.) The fighting culture remains though, it's just not as focused on stadiums anymore. That's becoming a much wider point though.

Yeah, I should have used another example - cause it's not limited to rivalries. Sitting a Rangers fan in the hardcore Frankfurt section at the Seville EC final (or the other way round) also likely wouldn't have ended well; and those clubs and their fan bases have absolutely no relationship. The geographical stuff or regional rivalry really isn't the point here, to my mind.

First of all what @strongwalker said: it's not like there are huge no-go areas. And I think we need to specify what we're talking about, because I don't think anyone would disagree with the notion that we should work towards making football culture a bit less aggressive (though you can't expect that to happen over night).
However I can't agree with the "organized fans are fascists" point made in this thread.

 

[Zehner]

you could try doing that kind of assholery in the weekly meeting of the feminist vegan group, go in there tell them they all suck etc, please report your test reults (with pictures)

I think most "feminist vegan group" members will be fine when somebody belittles the FC. They may find calling goats ugly a bit offensive, though, but I'm optimistic they won't punch me for it. Anyhow, if one of them does, that makes her just as much of an asshole.

Jokes aside, I find it "less reprehensible" to hit somebody because of topics such as equality and environmental protection than football because those are actually relevant and important topics that affect society as a whole. Still reprehensible but at least there's a valid motivation behind it, not something secondary such as support of a football club.

 

[stefan92]

Guys please... this discussion strays too far away from football now

 

[Zehner]

First of all what @strongwalker said: it's not like there are huge no-go areas. And I think we need to specify what we're talking about, because I don't think anyone would disagree with the notion that we should work towards making football culture a bit less aggressive (though you can't expect that to happen over night).
However I can't agree with the "organized fans are fascists" point made in this thread.

The wording was "self-entitlted man childs at best and fascists at worst". Not every ultra is a fascist, but ultra groups definitely follow certain fascist patterns. Strict hierarchies, common enemies and allies, "local nationalism", identification with a faceless collective, and so forth. The more extreme it gets (and some ultras are really extreme), the more fascist it becomes. I don't think that there's much to argue. I even know ultras who ironically called ultra support "everyday fascism".

 

[uamini]

Meanwhile in the lower leagues, Hamburg's favorite billionaire is offering HSV a well-needed 120 million €. Of course this generous offer comes with a list of 10 very small demands:

https://www.ndr.de/sport/fussball/hsvangebotkuehne100.pdf

Only 85 years old and still as power hungry as ever ^^

 

[Zehner]

Meanwhile in the lower leagues, Hamburg's favorite billionaire is offering HSV a well-needed 120 million €. Of course this generous offer comes with a list of 10 very small demands:

https://www.ndr.de/sport/fussball/hsvangebotkuehne100.pdf

Only 85 years old and still as power hungry as ever ^^

If I were to spend 120m € on a football club, I'd also want to make sure it is spent in a way I find reasonable. I see nothing wrong with that in general, though I imagine those 10 points mean more than it looks like superficially.

 

[stefan92]

If I were to spend 120m € on a football club, I'd also want to make sure it is spent in a way I find reasonable. I see nothing wrong with that in general, though I imagine those 10 points mean more than it looks like superficially.

Well the offer obviously means that Kühne's influence would increase a bit and immediately getting rid of some members of the board he doesn't like. Looking at his ideas and interviews in the last years I think it is questionable if this can be the way forward for HSV.

But I also don't think there is much wrong with this, it is a quite open and reasonable offer and the club members have to decide if they'll take it and further align with Kühne's vision for the club. I probably wouldn't, but I don't doubt that he loves the club and really wants to get it out of the current mess, so I inderstand every fan who wants to accept this offer

 

[Zehner]

Well the offer obviously means that Kühne's influence would increase a bit and immediately getting rid of some members of the board he doesn't like. Looking at his ideas and interviews in the last years I think it is questionable if this can be the way forward for HSV.

But I also don't think there is much wrong with this, it is a quite open and reasonable offer and the club members have to decide if they'll take it and further align with Kühne's vision for the club. I probably wouldn't, but I don't doubt that he loves the club and really wants to get it out of the current mess, so I inderstand every fan who wants to accept this offer

I don't really know what's going on at the HSV. I know that they always had lots of internal conflicts between board members, managers, directors, investors, etc. but I must admit I have no idea what their respective visions for the club have been. So I also can't tell if I'd support Kühne as an HSV fan but as you said, I believe if you invest such a sum, it's understandable that you want to have a say how it is spent.

 

[uamini]

I don't really know what's going on at the HSV. I know that they always had lots of internal conflicts between board members, managers, directors, investors, etc. but I must admit I have no idea what their respective visions for the club have been. So I also can't tell if I'd support Kühne as an HSV fan but as you said, I believe if you invest such a sum, it's understandable that you want to have a say how it is spent.

Well from what I can tell it goes a little deeper than that. There's a power struggle between Kühne and chairman of the board Wüstefeld (who also owns 5% of the club). Not only does Kühne want to get rid of him, he also wants to take control of 40% of the club. Since their club rules only allow one entity to own 24.99% that would require some major changes. In order to get the fans on board he seems to try to play the Uwe-Seeler card by promising to rename the stadium in his name.
He also wants to form some sort of comittee that rules over who will be allowed to join important positions. If he really manages to get his deal through it sounds like almost nothing could get done without his approval.

 

[Zehner]

Well from what I can tell it goes a little deeper than that. There's a power struggle between Kühne and chairman of the board Wüstefeld (who also owns 5% of the club). Not only does Kühne want to get rid of him, he also wants to take control of 40% of the club. Since their club rules only allow one entity to own 24.99% that would require some major changes. In order to get the fans on board he seems to try to play the Uwe-Seeler card by promising to rename the stadium in his name.
He also wants to form some sort of comittee that rules over who will be allowed to join important positions. If he really manages to get his deal through it sounds like almost nothing could get done without his approval.

And would you say that the decision making which brought the HSV in the situation they are in came from Kühne? It's probably hard to isolate the blame but if I was an HSV fan, I'd probably be happy to see all responsibilities come together in one person who I trust to make good decisions.

 

[stefan92]

And would you say that the decision making which brought the HSV in the situation they are in came from Kühne? It's probably hard to isolate the blame but if I was an HSV fan, I'd probably be happy to see all responsibilities come together in one person who I trust to make good decisions.

Kühne is definitely responsible for creating noise and distractions in moments were it wasn't wise to do this (launching interviews about the quality of the team in the middle of tight relegation/promotion fights.

He also seems to have used his influence to sign some big name players who weren't ideal for the team at the time, so his track record is really not that great whenever he actively influenced something.

On the other hand he usually is on point when he criticises the board and the onternal structures and culture of the club.

So as a HSV Fan I would support his cause of getting rid of some people and restructuring the club, but I would have doubts if he is the right one to become the winner of the restructuring.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Freiburg clearly the better team so far. Terzic really is just a handsome Tedesco.

 

[Hansi Fick]

And there it is! 1-0 Gregoritsch. Well deserved.

 

[GhastlyHun]

That's Dortmund's title challenge finished.

 

[do.ob]

Dortmund win first game
Dortmund lose second game


It is known

 

[stefan92]

And now it looks quite different... Dortmund scores the 3-1.

Terzic really is on an impressive run of wins in the BL, how many is it now? 9 or 10 wins in a row for him? Just bad for Dortmund that during this run Rose took over for a season..

 

[do.ob]

Who could possibly dream of stopping this Dortmund side?

 

[GhastlyHun]

This year is Dortmund's year

 

[do.ob]

Start to finish. Never in doubt

 

[stefan92]

That's Dortmund's title challenge finished.

This year is Dortmund's year

 

[do.ob]

Terzic masterclass

 

[Sphaero]

Terzic masterclass

I mean he did sub in all of their goals so.. xD

Not too shabby for the "handsome Tedesco"

 

[BarstoolProphet]

That goalkeeping error really changed the game. Dortmund didn't really impress today but good subs.