German Football 23/24 |

[do.ob]

Today already feels like a very important game for Terzic's future:

Last game, against Stuttgart, was probably one of the worst game of his tenure, so since this is a home game and we had an international break in between, the expectation is to see a convincing win - a hard-fought win at worst.
Especially with Dortmund's (somehow) completely absurd home record against Gladbach:

These stats aren't a good indicator for the future, but nevertheless they would turn not winning into some low key historic incident. Even though Gladbach are hardly an automatic pushover.

And then there's the upcoming schedule:

Just about the worst time to be some distance from your best. Concentrated within 20 days we could see Dortmund throw away a decent starting position in the CL, exit the cup and fall behind a thought-provoking amount of points behind fourth place.

 

[Zehner]

Today already feels like a very important game for Terzic's future:

Last game, against Stuttgart, was probably one of the worst game of his tenure, so since this is a home game and we had an international break in between, the expectation is to see a convincing win - a hard-fought win at worst.
Especially with Dortmund's (somehow) completely absurd home record against Gladbach:

These stats aren't a good indicator for the future, but nevertheless they would turn not winning into some low key historic incident. Even though Gladbach are hardly an automatic pushover.

And then there's the upcoming schedule:

Just about the worst time to be some distance from your best. Concentrated within 20 days we could see Dortmund throw away a decent starting position in the CL, exit the cup and fall behind a thought-provoking amount of points behind fourth place.

That's a silly home record, especially considering that Gladbach was a very good team in the 10s and a great one in 70s/80s if I'm not mistaken

 

[B. Munich]

Today already feels like a very important game for Terzic's future:

Wouldn't been worried today. Gladbach always bends over when playing in Dortmund.
Little bit like Dortmund does when playing Bayern.

 

[Swarm]

Well then...

 

[Swarm]

Okay, that is better

 

[2ndTouch]

Just about the worst time to be some distance from your best. Concentrated within 20 days we could see Dortmund throw away a decent starting position in the CL, exit the cup and fall behind a thought-provoking amount of points behind fourth place.

Hey, I'm counting on you getting something out of the Glyphosate Palace next week. Heja BVB and all that

 

[GhastlyHun]

Oh wow, didn't pay attention for 20 minutes and instead of 0-2 it's suddenly 3-2

 

[kaiser1]

Leverkusen deserves to take something out of this season but with Bayern so close by they are likely to end up with nothing

 

[B. Munich]

Gladbach useless as usual. Even after Dortmund gifted them a 2:0 lead, they manage to feck it up in less than 15 min.

Typical Gladbach.

 

[Swarm]

That final goal by Malen brought up memories of Rosicky

 

[do.ob]

Gladbach useless as usual. Even after Dortmund gifted them a 2:0 lead, they manage to feck it up in less than 15 min.

Typical Gladbach.

It's like they are hard-wired to lose in Dortmund. Reminiscent of Kramer scoring an own goal from the halfway line, when it was necessary to "get the result". Still it was an appalling game by Dortmund and the end result shouldn't deceive the people in charge: this was a lot closer to a continuation of the Stuttgart game, than it was to being an answer.



I'm aware that this was likely written by an agency, but feck me that sounds delusional - I've rarely experienced a more indifferent atmosphere in Dortmund.

 

[do.ob]

It's a true tragedy that Braunschweig and Osnabrück are so useless.

 

[stefan92]

Stuttgart really are lucky. They have a striker who had the best goals per minute ratio in the league and can afford to bench him when he feels a bit tired, because his replacement is the third best in the league in that metric and scores twice. Only Kane sits between Guirassy and Undav in that record.

 

[do.ob]

So much support from the fans, so little performance from the team

edit:
Schalke's ultras have left the block according to Sky.

 

[do.ob]

2. Liga is awesome.

 

[uamini]

Looks like Raul is about to be Union's next head coach...would have taken me a lot of tries to guess that one correctly.
I mean hiring a former Real star worked well for another Bundesliga team so who knows..

 

[Zehner]

Looks like Raul is about to be Union's next head coach...would have taken me a lot of tries to guess that one correctly.
I mean hiring a former Real star worked well for another Bundesliga team so who knows..

That will be quite a big change in terms of style of play. From what I've read, Raul isn't really a possession oriented coach but very progressive and methodical in terms of build up, positional structure, etc. Very interesting appointment

 

[do.ob]

Looks like Raul is about to be Union's next head coach...would have taken me a lot of tries to guess that one correctly.
I mean hiring a former Real star worked well for another Bundesliga team so who knows..

Considering the other hot candidate is/was Schreuder and assuming that Raul - being at the start of his career - has some progressive ideas, it seems like Union are quite determined to force a philosophical change from Fischer's risk averse football.

With Bayern and the CL matches I wouldn't expect some purple patch at the start, but Gladbach at home is an opponent, where they can get something and Bochum, Köln are two proper six pointers to end the year. Still .. the bottom third is so weak on points this season, they'd probably still have a decent-ish chance of survival, even if they don't win any of those games.


They also "used" the interim to write history:



It would be a big step in the right direction if she can hold on to the job.

And a couple of days ago Kevin Schade sacked his agent, because he made a Völler-esque tweet about the appointment.

 

[stefan92]

Considering the other hot candidate is/was Schreuder and assuming that Raul - being at the start of his career - has some progressive ideas, it seems like Union are quite determined to force a philosophical change from Fischer's risk averse football.

Which makes sense considering that their recruitment for this season already moved away from the principles of earlier seasons.

Seems a bit like the club knew they had to make a step towards a different approach but didn't realize that Fischer wasn't the right guy to manage that.

 

[do.ob]

Which makes sense considering that their recruitment for this season already moved away from the principles of earlier seasons.

Seems a bit like the club knew they had to make a step towards a different approach but didn't realize that Fischer wasn't the right guy to manage that.

I think that may be getting overstated a bit, based on their terrible results:

I mean which of these player really breaks with their previous transfer strategy?

Gosens stands out of course, but tactically he's a great fit for Fischer's football, because he's decidedly more on the direct/physical side than the technical and someone who all but locked them into playing a back 3/5. He's also arguably been the player that has been closest to doing okay offensively.

Volland is a bit like Max Kruse 2.0 gone wrong and not a very technical player anyway.

Tousart and Kral were opportunistic signings from relegated Bundesliga clubs.

Kaufmann and Hollerbach were Union's customary lower league gambles.

Bonucci stands out, because of his name, but in principle it's not so different from signing Gentner or even Subotic a couple of years ago and I doubt he was signed to play progressive football with a high line.

Fofana (Awoniyi 2.0?) and Aaronsen look like opportunistic loans and from what I can tell Aaronsen is your typical RB pressing player, too.

 

[Zehner]

I think that may be getting overstated a bit, based on their terrible results:

I mean which of these player really breaks with their previous transfer strategy?

Gosens stands out of course, but tactically he's a great fit for Fischer's football, because he's decidedly more on the direct/physical side than the technical and someone who all but locked them into playing a back 3/5. He's also arguably been the player that has been closest to doing okay offensively.

Volland is a bit like Max Kruse 2.0 gone wrong and not a very technical player anyway.

Tousart and Kral were opportunistic signings from relegated Bundesliga clubs.

Kaufmann and Hollerbach were Union's customary lower league gambles.

Bonucci stands out, because of his name, but in principle it's not so different from signing Gentner or even Subotic a couple of years ago and I doubt he was signed to play progressive football with a high line.

Fofana (Awoniyi 2.0?) and Aaronsen look like opportunistic loans and from what I can tell Aaronsen is your typical RB pressing player, too.

I would argue that Bonucci's outstanding quality has always been his build up play, he is essentially the Italian counterpart to Hummels. That speaks for a more progressive approach with the ball at least, IMO, even though you can't really play a high line with him. Same goes for the failed Isco signing. And Gosens had his best time in a very progressive Atalanta side as well.

Regarding Aaronson, as far as I know he's a technically strong attacking midfielder? Haven't seen much of them this season but from the little I've seen I think you could argue he's their best player from a purely technical point of view.

 

[do.ob]

I would argue that Bonucci's outstanding quality has always been his build up play, he is essentially the Italian counterpart to Hummels. That speaks for a more progressive approach with the ball at least, IMO, even though you can't really play a high line with him. Same goes for the failed Isco signing. And Gosens had his best time in a very progressive Atalanta side as well.

Regarding Aaronson, as far as I know he's a technically strong attacking midfielder? Haven't seen much of them this season but from the little I've seen I think you could argue he's their best player from a purely technical point of view.

I don't think any coach is ever not appreciative of good build up play: even the most negative teams can benefit greatly if their defenders can bypass midfield by playing accurate long balls. On the other hand I don't see a lot of "modern" football that doesn't expose its central defenders.

I think the idea behind Isco was similar to that behind Kruse: if the 10 other players are doing their job then the team could afford to have one "weak" player, who would in turn compensate for their other player's creative shortcomings.

In general I see nothing progressive about looking at ball-playing ability in isolation. If anything that's antiquated thinking, because modern football demands complete players, who are good at all phases of play and not just one.

Regarding Aaronson - I don't really know much about him, but this is from a tactical portrait:
With some talents, such as Karim Adeyemi, Vinícius Júnior, and Darwin Núñez, you clearly spot their good quality on the ball. However, Aaronson is a bit different, instead of scoring goals and assisting, so far, the most valuable trait of this player has been his pressing — that’s why Leeds are said to be crazy about him.

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/a...021-22-scout-report-tactical-analysis-tactics

 

[Zehner]

I don't think any coach is ever not appreciative of good build up play: even the most negative teams can benefit greatly if their defenders can bypass midfield by playing accurate long balls. On the other hand I don't see a lot of "modern" football that doesn't expose its central defenders.

I think the idea behind Isco was similar to that behind Kruse: if the 10 other players are doing their job then the team could afford to have one "weak" player, who would in turn compensate for their other player's creative shortcomings.

In general I see nothing progressive about looking at ball-playing ability in isolation. If anything that's antiquated thinking, because modern football demands complete players, who are good at all three phases of play and not just one.

Regarding Aaronson - I don't really know much about him, but this is from a tactical portrait:
With some talents, such as Karim Adeyemi, Vinícius Júnior, and Darwin Núñez, you clearly spot their good quality on the ball. However, Aaronson is a bit different, instead of scoring goals and assisting, so far, the most valuable trait of this player has been his pressing — that’s why Leeds are said to be crazy about him.

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/a...021-22-scout-report-tactical-analysis-tactics

I generally agree on Isco. Back then I thought they had the "successfully negative" teams like Atletico, Inter, Juve, etc. in mind which always played one technically superb player like Dybala, Griezmann, Sneijder etc. Probably they last somewhat working systems in which traditional #10s still exist.

I'm a bit surlrised by the description of Aaronson. The one match I saw from him, he was technically strong in tight spaces and even showed a bit of flair with some nice backheel passes anf ball rolls. But even the description you quoted is a different profile than what Union stood for and generally indicates that they wanted to get to the front foot more. As said, Gosens is such a player as well and Volland, too. Those aren't your typical 'sit back and counter' type of players, even though not the most technically gifted. In a way a bit similar to what Dortmund tried to build I guess with tactically disciplined, hard working players who are still strong technically and overall balanced footballers with a tendency to play proactive football.

And from what I've read on Raul (did some research after somebody suggested him as Alonso's successor) that might fit Raul quite well. He's not really a possession oriented coach (his team averages around 54% or so) but somebody who has clear attacking patterns and ideas which zones to overload how, etc. Reads a little like your typical RB coach with a bit of a Spanish influence.

 

[do.ob]

I generally agree on Isco. Back then I thought they had the "successfully negative" teams like Atletico, Inter, Juve, etc. in mind which always played one technically superb player like Dybala, Griezmann, Sneijder etc. Probably they last somewhat working systems in which traditional #10s still exist.

I'm a bit surlrised by the description of Aaronson. The one match I saw from him, he was technically strong in tight spaces and even showed a bit of flair with some nice backheel passes anf ball rolls. But even the description you quoted is a different profile than what Union stood for and generally indicates that they wanted to get to the front foot more. As said, Gosens is such a player as well and Volland, too. Those aren't your typical 'sit back and counter' type of players, even though not the most technically gifted. In a way a bit similar to what Dortmund tried to build I guess with tactically disciplined, hard working players who are still strong technically and overall balanced footballers with a tendency to play proactive football.

And from what I've read on Raul (did some research after somebody suggested him as Alonso's successor) that might fit Raul quite well. He's not really a possession oriented coach (his team averages around 54% or so) but somebody who has clear attacking patterns and ideas which zones to overload how, etc. Reads a little like your typical RB coach with a bit of a Spanish influence.

It's not like Union made it a priority to have players, who have bad technique. So I don't think Gosens or Volland represent a huge shift in that regard. They just mean that Union can afford a (nominally) better class of player. And Aaronsen is a one year loanee, his signing tells us even less about strategy.

Anyway.. Looks like this was just another "almost signed that guy from Real" moment for Union:

 

[do.ob]

It's official now.

 

[do.ob]

"The [head] says: there are many genres of music, but only two genders!"

What the heck? How can Leverkusen haven "no" fans, yet still enough people to organize something like this? Considering where this was placed I assume this was supported by their ultras?

 

[Zehner]

"The [head] says: there are many genres of music, but only two genders!"

What the heck? How can Leverkusen haven "no" fans, yet still enough people to organize something like this? Considering where this was placed I assume this was supported by their ultras?

Around 30k people attend home games in general. While that's not a crazy figure, it is still decent in a European wide comparison. Even in the Bundesliga it is enough for 11th.

Anyway, that banner made me angry as well. I mean, it is also completely out of the blue, no societal or political context or anything. At least the club has already distanced itself from it. A reminder that many ultras are just degenerated idiots (not all of course).

 

[do.ob]

Around 30k people attend home games in general. While that's not a crazy figure, it is still decent in a European wide comparison. Even in the Bundesliga it is enough for 11th.

Anyway, that banner made me angry as well. I mean, it is also completely out of the blue, no societal or political context or anything. At least the club has already distanced itself from it. A reminder that many ultras are just degenerated idiots (not all of course).

I think we both know you chose the word "people" for a good reason.

 

[Zehner]

I think we both know you chose the word "people" for a good reason.

Of course! In case of Dortmund for instance I wouldn't use "people" as this word is a far too complaisant to describe the average BVB fan

Maybe we can send the Leverkusen ultras who held that banner up to you guys, I bet they'd love themselves some Nmecha jerseys.

 

[HTG]

"The [head] says: there are many genres of music, but only two genders!"

What the heck? How can Leverkusen haven "no" fans, yet still enough people to organize something like this? Considering where this was placed I assume this was supported by their ultras?

Assholes.

 

[Swarm]

I think we both know you chose the word "people" for a good reason.

I don't really want to chime in on the feud you two are living out so publicly, but these jabs are getting really tiresome. We get it, you dislike the club and wish there was a club like HSV or Schalke with a bigger fanbase in the league, no need to spell it out every single day.

 

[Cheimoon]

I don't really want to chime in on the feud you two are living out so publicly, but these jabs are getting really tiresome. We get it, you dislike the club and wish there was a club like HSV or Schalke with a bigger fanbase in the league, no need to spell it out every single day.

Seconded. Even the initial post in this conversation was partly a jab at the size of Leverkusen's fanbase.

 

[do.ob]

Seconded. Even the initial post in this conversation was partly a jab at the size of Leverkusen's fanbase.

Okay, the second post wasn't exactly necessary .
But the size of the fan base does actually matter when looking at this in the sense that the smaller the away travelling section of the club is the more representative of their scene as a whole this picture looks.

 

[Swarm]

Our U17 boys win a nailbiter in the WC semifinal over Argentina. Argentina equalized in the 97th minute and Brunner, who had scored twice, also scored the decisive penalty in the shootout. Quite an entertaining match, looking forward to the final against France or Mali.

 

[stefan92]

Our U17 boys win a nailbiter in the WC semifinal over Argentina. Argentina equalized in the 97th minute and Brunner, who had scored twice, also scored the decisive penalty in the shootout. Quite an entertaining match, looking forward to the final against France or Mali.

Definitely, strong (mental) performance from both teams going behind, equalizing, taking the lead, fighting back again. That's how football is interesting, 3:3 after regular time and not a boring 3:0 whatever

 

[uamini]

A final against France would be a nice re-match after this summer's Euro finals and a chance to keep this year's remarkable run against French youth teams alive...

U16: Germany - France 5:1
U16: Germany - France 2:2
U16: Germany - France 4:2
U17: Germany - France 3:1
U17: Germany - France 5:4 on penalties
U18: Germany - France 3:0

Might of course be a a random streak but I don't remember German youth teams doing as well in those matchups in previous years.

 

[stefan92]

Hoffenheim now officially is a 50+1 club again - Dietmar Hopp officially gave back his vote/control over the club and this is now ratified by the DFL. So at the moment the only official exceptions in the league are Leverkusen and Wolfsburg, while Leipzig just cheated the rule and never officially was an exception.

Still nice to see this move, there still is little reason to like Hoffenheim, but a bit less reason to despise them.

 

[do.ob]

Hoffenheim now officially is a 50+1 club again - Dietmar Hopp officially gave back his vote/control over the club and this is now ratified by the DFL. So at the moment the only official exceptions in the league are Leverkusen and Wolfsburg, while Leipzig just cheated the rule and never officially was an exception.

Still nice to see this move, there still is little reason to like Hoffenheim, but a bit less reason to despise them.

I assume there is a catch buried somewhere - Hopp doesn't strike me as someone, who would do this, because he's suddenly seen the cultural importance of 50+1.

It's a step in the right direction regardless though. Leipzig passing under the radar in terms of 50+1 is the biggest joke of course. At least with the other clubs everyone spells out what they are.

On the other hand there is sadly no denying that, unlike the other plastic clubs, they may have some real growth potential as a club, so maybe they don't want to ruin that, seeing how volatile most of the big clubs have been in the past and how it's hurt the league at the top.

 

[stefan92]

I assume there is a catch buried somewhere - Hopp doesn't strike me as someone, who would do this, because he's suddenly seen the cultural importance of 50+1.

I believe he simply might have lost interest in being so involved with them on a daily base.

 

[Swarm]

Without being well informed about Hoffenheims finances I would assume the main catch is that Hopp or his businesses are still Hoffenheims main sponsors. So while I do believe he is fine with not being as involved in the clubs decisions I am pretty sure that they will not really be able to make decisions he fundamentally disagrees with because he could pretty much pull the plug on them.

But as much as I have disliked some of his behaviour (e.g. with respect to fan backlash that had to be expected) I have to say that he has been mostly prudent in his involvement and seemed to genuinely want the club to thrive without putting himself in the limelight too much (maybe in contrast to someone like Kühne, who I find mostly insufferable).