You're missing the point. Graeme Souness is talking to Paul Pogba the athlete from France, not Paul Pogba from Africa like the poster I replied to suggested.
Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”
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I definitely don't agree with that. We have been talking about why Souness treats a famous black athlete differently to a famous white athlete. It's clearly not ridiculous to say that it is connected to race.
Afraid it’s happened too long and too often not to warrant some kind of scrutiny. His actions are questionable and should be looked into. For the good of equally in the sport and the wider society.
What gets me about Souness’s “you expect that from a 100m player” is that only 7 players have had 4 assists in a PL match since the PL started. It’s bloody rare because it’s not expected.
Let's see if he jumps on Grealish for not scoring or assisting week in week out. I doubt he will
Racism is a touchy subject for a lot of people, usually because each person has their own opinion on what constitutes racist thoughts/actions, based on their life experience and whatever prior research they may have carried out.
In any case, I don't see any reason to defend Souness' words. Even if it's not racism per se, at this point it's looking likely that his attitude towards Pogba is borne of some form of prejudice, which is indefensible. The optics of that Micah Richards segment does look quite bad.
In any case, I don't see any reason to defend Souness' words. Even if it's not racism per se, at this point it's looking likely that his attitude towards Pogba is borne of some form of prejudice, which is indefensible. The optics of that Micah Richards segment does look quite bad.
Welcome to the club.. 1.Dennis Bergkamp, 2.Jose Antonio Reyes, 3.Cesc Fabregas, 4.Emmanuel Adebayor, 5.Santi Cazorla, 6.Dusan Tadic, 7.Harry Kane, 8.Paul Pogba
Not exactly difficult.
James, if you're reading this, you are a fat fecking wanker.
This thread used to be fun, now it's a bit boring.
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If that's your assumption. Id say you are missing the point.
Which other French athletes has Souness commented this negatively on?
Him and Sky have found something so that Souness can continue to be relevant and both of them keep on milking it. It's quite embarrassing to watch.
So your assumption is that Souness hates Pogba because he's a person of color?
Yeah, this.
I'd add that whether Souness himself is actually obsessed with criticizing Pogba/downplaying his achievements - or whether he's just assuming this role in order to keep the whole drama going - is almost irrelevant at this point. The bottom line is that this is a click generating spiel from Sky's perspective. People who keep reacting to whatever Souness says are very much a part of the problem. Pogba is extremely popular - he has a ton of followers on social media. If those people chose to ignore Souness, he'd fade into obscurity before long. The only "interesting" thing about him these days is this silly "feud" with Pogba.
Surprise not to see Beckham & Giggs on there, Dusan Tadic Really?
What dick Sourness is, Nev too!!
I haven't seen any real evidence of racism from Souness. Over the years he has regularly been progressive when it comes to equalities issues, not just in nodding along and saying the right things, but in actually leading change. We saw it when he powered past the controversy to sign and back Mo Johnston and Mark Walters in the 1980s. We saw it again a couple of years ago with his frank and brutal assessment of why gay players had not come out in the Premier League.
Where he is behind the curve is the same reason he cannot manage in the modern game. He cannot adapt how he relates to headstrong individuals within a team environment. He's had countless run-ins over his managerial career with players who share elements of Pogba's personality such as the confidence and individuality of Ally McCoist or Craig Bellamy, or for example turning down the opportunity to sign Cantona at Liverpool.
Alongside that, he, like every pundit, values different things on the pitch. Every pundit looks at the game through the eyes of how they played, where they played, what they enjoyed, what they understand as important to winning games. And those factors vary wildly across pundits. Souness is big on taking responsibility on and off the ball. As a manager he fell out repeatedly with creative players who did not pull their weight defensively or who could have been more consistent - see Ian Durrant, David Dunn or Peter Beardsley. He will always look at any game through those lens of a two-way central midfielder who was very consistent, covered his runs, was positionally aware and took pleasure in shutting out the main playmaker (the Pogba figure) in the opposition.
And yes it's blindingly obvious that he and Sky are acutely aware that the Souness/Pogba stuff generates them obscene amounts of social media traffic. So they'll keep flogging that for as long as it continues to make them money.
Where he is behind the curve is the same reason he cannot manage in the modern game. He cannot adapt how he relates to headstrong individuals within a team environment. He's had countless run-ins over his managerial career with players who share elements of Pogba's personality such as the confidence and individuality of Ally McCoist or Craig Bellamy, or for example turning down the opportunity to sign Cantona at Liverpool.
Alongside that, he, like every pundit, values different things on the pitch. Every pundit looks at the game through the eyes of how they played, where they played, what they enjoyed, what they understand as important to winning games. And those factors vary wildly across pundits. Souness is big on taking responsibility on and off the ball. As a manager he fell out repeatedly with creative players who did not pull their weight defensively or who could have been more consistent - see Ian Durrant, David Dunn or Peter Beardsley. He will always look at any game through those lens of a two-way central midfielder who was very consistent, covered his runs, was positionally aware and took pleasure in shutting out the main playmaker (the Pogba figure) in the opposition.
And yes it's blindingly obvious that he and Sky are acutely aware that the Souness/Pogba stuff generates them obscene amounts of social media traffic. So they'll keep flogging that for as long as it continues to make them money.
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You are trying to give the benefit of a doubt and apply reason to a situation that has none.
Neville is no better by the way. OK, maybe slightly better.
Neville’s gripe with Pogba is less about it his behaviour and more about his agent’s. However misguided or not that may be.
Souness has issues with Pogba the player, the personality and all of it. He hates Pogba. That’s the difference and the reason he doesn’t hold a candle to Hansen as a pundit.
Souness has issues with Pogba the player, the personality and all of it. He hates Pogba. That’s the difference and the reason he doesn’t hold a candle to Hansen as a pundit.
Something like Jose has with Luke....I think some people just do not like certain people and it is more about characteristics than it is about colour.
Yeah I think you're right. Sky seem to be all about this kind of thing and you could easily say most of their panellists are there to generate some form of attention. G Nev is constantly put in the spotlight and told to express a strong opinion, which he duly obliges with every time. Keane is there to be a grumpy old man, and Micah there because his silly presence winds Keane up which makes people laugh merrily. Sounness is obvious. Tyler has ramped up the spectacular over the years and it's different to his commentary on other channels that it really sticks out like a sore thumb.
Redknapp and Carragher are probably the outliers.
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No, I simply would not assume, as you did, that race is not a factor in the extreme negative reaction and excessive criticism directed at him by Souness.
What other black players does Souness criticise excessively on such a regular basis that you think racism is possibly a factor?
He doesn't need to overly criticise other black players for race to be a factor in his excessive criticism of Pogba. This should be relatively easy to understand. I also don't think race is the ONLY possible factor which drives Souness and his criticism.
But if Pogba was a white Scotsman, with the same attitude and behaviour, would he have been so negative towards him?
As far as I remember him and Keane started going off on him hard during the end times of Mourinho. There are some crazy clips out there of Neville going all Souness with why he took a penalty, and a general focus on everything negative. They both calmed down a little as of late and I suspect it might have something to do with Ole.
Souness is the ring leader I'd say in irrational expectations and in not giving credit for anything, but he is not alone. Very rarely is the "gang" counterbalanced on sky, when people like Micah Richards, Evra, Viera, Ferdinand, etc are given space to talk.
It is going to be interesting to see those 3 react to Jack Grealish if he happens to have a bit of a meh season, especially if Pogba outperforms him.
Amen!
You are changing two factors there. I suspect he would be more positive if Pogba was a black Scotsman (equally to if he was a white Scotsman) but only as most commentators tend to be more positive about players from their own country - just as he would be more positive if he was a Liverpool player. That said, I would have thought he’d still raise the same criticisms, as they are things that Souness as a player is always going to call out - see Gio’s beautifully written post above.
I suspect he’d be equally critical of Pogba, white or black, if he was from anywhere else on the planet - I don’t think the fact he is French or black has anything to do with it.
We can't really know that can we. The only comparable options you have in real life is to compare Souness treatment of comparable players or ethnicities during commentary. You can make a real life comparison to yourself: Are you more positively inclined to athletes from your own country despite skincolor? Of course you are, we all cheer for our athletes, white, black, purple or pasta.
If his comments on players are not similar, reasonable people will judge that the reason Souness doesn't give Pogba praise, is because Souness doesn't like Paul Pogba. The only reason I'm ever entertaining this discussion is because the quetion of racism is an ever important one, but you're dilluting the issue by labeling any perceived issue between a white and a colored man as "possible racism". Graeme Souness is a man that plays favorites, because that's who he is. He's the farthest thing from a Manchester United fan that you can come, and along with it comes a lot of cognitive bias. He's Liverpool through and through.
For example, this is what he had to say after a match between Chelsea and Manchester United at Old Trafford in 2018: “Kante ran the midfield last week at Old Trafford,” Souness said on Sky Sports.
Chelsea lost 2-1. Pogba had a very good game. Even had a heel-tunnel on Kante.
Here's Souness after last weeks opener against Leeds:
Micah Richards: "Pogba had four assists"
Graeme Souness: "We expect that from a £100m man"
Or on Greenwood: "They have signed good players. For me, the star of the show was Greenwood. For a young boy, I thought he was sensational." - Greenwood, as you may have noticed, has an amazing natural tan.
There's even incidents where Souness has praised Pogba, but not without dropping some hints over why he might not actually like Paul Pogba.
''I thought he was really good. Apart from this [the penalty run-up]. This for me is 'look at me, look at me, I want to be in the spotlight'.
''I just don't get this penalty, but I think he's moved the ball quickly today, he's been uncomplicated... I think he's been really good today.''
Even more commentary in 2018 saw this praise/criticism in one:
"This boy has been blessed with the most wonderful athleticism, he's six foot four, I'm sure he can leap like a stag and run like the wind. He's got fabulous technique, he's got fabulous athleticism, but for me he just doesn't do the basics right.
"But there is a player there. I'm seen as his biggest critic but his manager is not happy with him. I've been a manager and I'm saying to myself, like Jose will be saying to himself, 'what a player this boy could be if you would just listen and learn.'
''He should be turning up every day listening to the manager, listening to the senior players and wanting to improve. I’m not sure if that is the case but I’ll come back to it, this boy could be a top, top player.''
In summary, and I'll keep it breif: Graeme Souness doesn't like Paul Pogbas personality and off field antics, and is unable to stop it from seeping into his commentary. He's not a racist, he's just a dick.
Please stop looking for reasons to bring race into discussions when there is none. Let's stop watering down a very important issue with imaginary reasons, and especially let's stop bringing speculation into what "may be the reason", it does no one any favors.
That last paragraph is a massive assumption.
I am not "changing factors" I'm saying there are a large number of factors which will contribute. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that race is one of those factors based on Souness extreme comments and reactions to Pogba.
5 Arsenal players. When they had a good team. Arsenal fans must be gutted how far they’ve dropped
Well what are Pogba’s ‘antics’ off field?
Exactly. There are none. He's a model professional. He's black though so obvioulsy not a saint.
Souness Is a miserable old jock who's has no place commenting on modern football anymore, its beyond him and like teams the pundits should be in transition.
Old-style football was beyond him too. He was a shit manager.
I really don't know why anyone would be interested in hearing his views. Seriously, it beggars belief that a man whose approach to transfers was such that he signed a useless senegalese sunday-leaguer because someone claiming to be George Weah called him and told him it was his cousin is allowed to pontificate on television about the transfer decisions of real managers.
Mental how there is a 76-page thread about this guy on here 
he really winds people up doesn't he?
he really winds people up doesn't he?It's not beyond the realms of possibility, but that doesn't seem to be what you're peddling... You seem to be peddling that he is racist...
I don't understand the criticism of Souness to be honest, I haven't seen anyone say he's had a brilliant Manchester United career. We have numerous posters in here who believe he can't shouldn't play in the centre of midfield because he a ) loses the ball relatively often and b) doesn't track runners very well. I believe that's all Souness has ever really said about Pogba, he's not world class because World class midfielders do those things better.
Sky are obviously playing up to it and constantly ask the questions, which I know some people believe he enjoys, but it's also quite possible that it grates on him how much criticism he gets for talking about Pogba.
I believe, that if Pogba had played in a better team and higher up the pitch (as he is doing both right now), then Souness would never have had the same criticism of him.
Completely agree. I don't think Souness' opionion on Pogba is racially driven he just thinks Pogba is a playboy and that goes against everything he stands for. I think Souness is a really crap pundit who is completely out of touch with the modern game tactically but I think he has shown himself to be a morally decent person through the years.
Premier league football is about 2 things. Top level sport and then the entertainment to promote it. He's getting people talking. Job done from Sky's point of view.
Really is mental. I don't mind him at all. Having said that, I can't stand Keown, Jenas and Neville when he's commentating on United games, so, massively hypocritical of me.Mental how there is a 76-page thread about this guy on here
76 pages on a dinosaur whose opinion no one cares aboutMental how there is a 76-page thread about this guy on here
His latest statement ps on Pogba really grated the Caf. Very rare this thread is still being heavily commented on a Tuesday after the weekend game.
I think that the reason it winds up people is because people like Souness heavily contribute and Sky promote a narrative that only really exists in the press. Overtime the circus that they created has become Pogba's circus and he has been blamed for it by fans.
Ahhh the old blessed with athleticism "complement" . Classic.
It isn't looking to bring race into. You deny it is a factor, probably because you have little to no experience of subtle or even direct racism. Again, it is only one factor, but "first impressions" count.