Great Teams are Built, not Bought.

[GlastonSpur]

Tottenham have spent over 300 million Euros in the past 4 seasons. Even Leicester have spent more than 70 million Euros in the past 2 seasons. Just saying.

Without checking I don't know if this figure is accurate or not, but in any event it's highly misleading because in net spend terms I'd guess the spend is close to zero, if not actually in the black. It's net spend that counts: i.e. not just money going out, but also money coming in from player sales.

 

[Moriarty]

Sir Matt, one of the greatest team builders in the history of the English game, spent big when he needed to. He splashed £30,000 on Tommy Taylor in 1953 to add to his team of home-grown stars. He carried on after Munich by spending big money on Albert Quixall and Denis Law, to name but two. But for Sir Matt, buying stars from other clubs never took precence over bringing our own kids through. Tommy Doc spent like a drunken sailor to keep us in the 1st Division in 1973 but, after relegation, he built a side capable of bouncing back, although a number of his players, Hill, Pearson, Coppell, Macari, Forsyth, and Holton came from other teams, but (with the exception of Macari) for modest fees.

Bill Shankly's great Liverpool sides were built on the same lines as ours. Leeds had a similar philosophy as did Derby under Clough, and City under Mercer and Allison. It was a successful formula.

Real Madrid, going back to the 1950s, have had a policy of buying established, big-name players. This 'galactico'
thing isn't new and it has worked for them.

 

[Speak]

So... if you ignore examples of clubs succeeding with that strategy, there is no proof that the strategy works.

Well done, I'm gonna use this train of thought going forward

Fair enough - I worded that last sentence poorly. Should have been: They aren't an example of anything, with regard to 'you don't need to spend big to build a great side'

Because they aren't a 'great' team, as the title mentions. Winning one league title doesn't make a team great.
People keep on harping on about Leicester, when all they prove is that a team can overachieve hugely and win a trophy if things go perfectly for them.

Do they prove that anything about 'great' teams? No. And the only way they'll be one is by buying in better quality. Because this over-achievement will eventually stop.

People would actually have a point if Leicester built a great side and had been this successful for longer than 2/3s of one season.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Walrus

I agree with your argument whole heartedly. Out of interest how many first team signings would you make in the summer? I reckon a striker, RW and another creative CM would really lift us to another level (I'd play 433 pivot backwards).

 

[entropy]

Without checking I don't know if this figure is accurate or not, but in any event it's highly misleading because in net spend terms I'd guess the spend is close to zero, if not actually in the black. It's net spend that counts: i.e. not just money going out, but also money coming in from player sales.

I think the bottom line he is trying to get at, is that spurs haven't won anything.

 

[togg]

Leicester have done it the hard way and if they win it, then for sure it means you can buy relatively cheap and have a manager that creates the right spirit, determination and ability to gel the strengths of each individual player to mould a very good team. Let's remember also that Leicester certainly don't have the same strength in depth of most top clubs. However, that is certainly not the norm. I reckon you can buy top players in every position, but if you don't harness it, tame the egos, and stop individuals wanting to arrogantly be a one man show, then you are buggered. Ferguson always always knew that as soon as the arrogance and self importance of a player started to pervade the harmony of a team and challenge his authority...he got rid of them..quite rightly.

 

[Vilev]

None of the great teams are built, they all bought, even the Munich and Barcelona sides that had a lot of youngsters from the club paid millions to assemble their squads.
The key thing is that if you have to buy the whole squad of top-quality players, that's basically not doable. Some squad players for rotation have to be home-grown, you also need a couple of smart buys, a players who can perform way above their transfer fee so to say. Otherwise it's just too damn expensive, even Real could not afford it. Not sure about City, maybe only PSG can pull it off. I mean buying 12-13 top players and at least 7-8 good ones.

 

[Walrus]

@Walrus

I agree with your argument whole heartedly. Out of interest how many first team signings would you make in the summer? I reckon a striker, RW and another creative CM would really lift us to another level (I'd play 433 pivot backwards).

It is a difficult one at this moment in time because we have quite a few "stick or twist" situations with players; do we reinforce the wings or do we give Januzaj a chance to rekindle his form/career? Do we ship off Rooney or keep him (whilst most fans may sway for the former, I suspect the club would go for the latter)?

If it were up to me I would be looking for an experienced CB who can slot in next to Smalling, allowing Blind to cover at DM or LB - where I think he has played well for us.
I would ship out Rooney and look to build the team around Martial up front, however we would need some competition/backup for the striker position, so I would try to sign a top quality striker with the knowledge that Martial can also do a good job on the wings.

In midfield I dont think too much change is needed and we would be better off sticking with the options we already have (with the reintroduction of Blind); Blind, Herrera, Scheiderlin, Schweinsteiger, Carrick and Fellaini is more than enough options there.

The wings is the tricky spot. I feel Memphis and Januzaj deserve consistent gametime to show their worth, and Pereira is also ready to start being introduced to the first team more regularly. I am not a big fan of Lingard, nor of Mata in wide areas, so if the new striker we signed was (like Martial) able to play out wide as well then that would be ideal for creating a fluid front three with plenty of interchanging.


The situation is complicated by the amount of youngsters we have seen blooded in the last month or two, and their promising performances. We have several prospects who look like they are ready to make the step up, so I wouldnt want to fill the first team squad with average players to block their development. I think we need to sign one or two top quality players to fill the main gaps in the squad, not go overboard and buy half a dozen (again). Quality over quantity, and have some faith in the youngsters to step up when required.

 

[Speak]

Leicester have done it the hard way and if they win it, then for sure it means you can buy relatively cheap and have a manager that creates the right spirit, determination and ability to gel the strengths of each individual player to mould a very good team. Let's remember also that Leicester certainly don't have the same strength in depth of most top clubs. However, that is certainly not the norm. I reckon you can buy top players in every position, but if you don't harness it, tame the egos, and stop individuals wanting to arrogantly be a one man show, then you are buggered. Ferguson always always knew that as soon as the arrogance and self importance of a player started to pervade the harmony of a team and challenge his authority...he got rid of them..quite rightly.

Leicester haven't 'done it the hard way'. They haven't even done it.
They aren't a 'great' team. And can't be considered one until they win a few more trophies.

Once they do that then we can no longer chalk it down to huge huge levels of over-achievement.

 

[togg]

Leicester haven't 'done it the hard way'. They haven't even done it.
They aren't a 'great' team. And can't be considered one until they win a few more trophies.

Once they do that then we can no longer chalk it down to huge huge levels of over-achievement.

If you look at my post...I said 'if they win it'. I disagree. If they win this it will be a massive achievement considering the last team outside the usual top four (don't include city who spent bloody millions) was in the 94/95 season Blackburn. Have you seen them play? It's not over achievement, they are genuinely very good.

 

[entropy]

Leicester haven't 'done it the hard way'. They haven't even done it.
They aren't a 'great' team. And can't be considered one until they win a few more trophies.

Once they do that then we can no longer chalk it down to huge huge levels of over-achievement.

They are on track to win the title aren't they?

 

[ivaldo]

They're built, money just helps.

 

[nick2004]

It is great that some of you are giving examples from the past.

However, the situation today is very different from the 1980s.Back then, we had restrictions on how many foreigners you can buy, it was hard to buy the star players from other teams etc.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I think the bottom line he is trying to get at, is that spurs haven't won anything.

Regardless, within the thread context Spurs are showing, as are Leicester City, that the prime focus is best put on team building rather than big net spending.

 

[Oneunited26]

I apologise for bumping my thread as I hate it when people do that, but I think it is worth looking back on this season and revisiting it.

The point I was originally trying to make with this thread is that in my opinion, you cannot simply buy your way to consistent success in the PL. A team can be more than the sum of its parts if developed and managed correctly, and as this season has gone by, the likes of Leicester and Tottenham have been proof of this. Similarly, ourselves, City and Chelsea - three teams who have recently had a tendency to throw money at a problem and hope it goes away - have struggled.

My point is not that a top team should not/cannot spend money, or that we need x amount of academy youngsters in the first team this week. The point is simply that success does not come overnight. It is one thing to buy in half a dozen new players, but it is another to get them to actually play and succeed as a team. The best way to do this is by having a crop of players who have played together for years - whether at senior level or youth level. If you have two or three players who have played together since they were 14, by the time they reach 20 they will have a perfect and intuitive understanding of how to play with each other. This sort of understanding very rarely emerges between established, senior pros - Yorke and Cole being one of the examples of what happens when it does.

If you got the right manager, right setup, you are good at spending money on the right players, that club will be successful. The 2008 team was not exactly academy based, a combination of great coaching, good buying, and knowing what the team wanted, and it was successful. Buying players is a key ingredient in making the right team, currently when the club has a manager so out of touch with reality, a board has inept has they are, they cannot see the weight of their failure at which the manager needed changing. If the board, the manager and his setup are all wrong, the rest will collapse which is what has happened

 

[Roboc7]

Whether you want to build or buy a team it's irrelevant if you don't recruit the right manager and/or the right players. Who we recruit and who is responsible for recruiting is the problem we have and until we get better at it we aren't going to be able to build or buy a good team.

You can't build a team if you have a clueless manager or one who can't accept his philosophy is a failure, you also can't buy success when you waste time and money on inferior players like fellaini, a player like di Maria who doesn't want to play for the club, a crock like falcao etc etc.

We need a manager with a plan, who can get the best out of players, play to individual and collective strengths, he can do that by building or buying as both can work but appoint another dud manager or continue our desperate and unrealistic transfer strategy and it will be more of the same.

 

[ADJUDICATOR]

Agreed. A spine of De Gea, Smalling, <insert>, Shaw, <insert>, <insert> and Martial should be groomed and built around.

 

[Im red2]

We had a great team and failed to invest to keep ourselves at the top, we said things like "no value in the market." While at the same time we played players like Cleverley ahead of future prospects like Pogba. Then Pogba left on a free, mistakes can be made by anyone. For me that is one of the biggest mistakes ever made by SAF, who no doubt was the best ever manager, not only for United but overall. His record proves it, without a doubt. I suspect the lack of investment had something to do with the takeover by the Glazers. And the debt the club had to pay back. I know the Glazers massively increased the intake that the club makes, but I also know that over 1 billion has left the club in order to finance that debt. I think we should have replaced like for like when we were at the top. Because getting there is much more difficult than staying there. The road back to the top will not be easy but United have the resources to get there if we really want to. I just hope we make the correct decisions, I would take Mourinho as manager from the start of next season and back him with the clubs finances. That will agitate Guardiola at City, those two have a past. I know Giggs is a popular choice, but we are not a best friends convention, we are a football club and he (Giggs) does not have the credentials (yet) to be made manager. We seriously cannot choose Giggs despite his past with the club. We are not in a situation to take a risk. Let Giggs go manage a smaller club and see what he has got. He could be a future option, but he is certainly not the best option available right now. When I looked at our midfield the other night and saw Carrick and Fellaini, I thought biggest club in the World my ass. It is time United grew a pair.

 

[pacifictheme]

CB, CM, CM, RW, Striker.

We're not close.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Edit: I have rewritten this post in order to clarify the point I am trying to make, since a lot of people have misunderstood it. The original post is contained in the spoiler tags at the end.

Continuity is key. We have seen teams try to buy instant success, and typically have failed to do so without long term investment/planning. My opinion and argument is that success is bred from having players with an understanding of both their role, and the roles of the other players in the team - and this comes from consistency and continuity.

The prevailing opinion on here seems to be that we need to go out and spend hundreds of millions of pounds overhauling the squad, and that by doing so, we will be challenging for the PL next year. I do not think this is the case at all.

Great teams are built, not bought. Please note, this does not mean we should be spending only x amount on players, or that we need to have y amount of academy players in our XI. What it means is that we need consistency, year on year, in the playing side.

Over the course of this season, we have seen - in my opinion - some really promising signs, as LVG's much-mentioned philosophy finally seems to have taken root. We dominated Chelsea at Stamford bridge (despite losing - I will get to that), we slaughtered City at Old Trafford, and when we have been on form, we have looked more or less unstoppable. This is after less than a year under LVG, and with definite room for improvement in the squad.
Based on the above, it seems to me that the best policy here is to stick with the majority of the current playing squad/first XI. Over time, as the players grow more used to each other and develop a better understanding, as well as mastering LVG's system, I would expect our quality of play to improve even further - look at what we did to some of the top teams this season, there is no reason why we cannot build on that and replicate it over the course of the season, if the players are given time.

As I said before, this does not mean we cant buy players. We should be looking to add 1-2 high quality additions in key areas. For me, that is the wings (Depay) and RB. We can add depth in other areas if we really want, but I would prefer seeing some of the youngsters be given a chance if injuries hit.

To illustrate my point, some examples;

• Barcelona. A lot on this thread have argued against this one, but I think it is valid. Barcelona had a great crop of youth prospects it is true, but I would argue that the reason these players looked so good was because they had played together for years, under Guardiola, using his system. Their understanding was/is on another level to even the top teams, and it showed on the pitch. The players knew innately when to press, how to pass and move, and when another player would be making a run. This level of understanding and teamwork does not come overnight, regardless of how many superstar signings you make - it is developed over years of practice and playing with the same group of players.
• Liverpool. Rodgers' first season started off pretty poorly, but as it went on there were clear signs of improvement. Over that summer (2013) they added a couple of key players, and then challenged for the league last year, for the first time in 20 years. They were of course helped by Suarez, but even without him they played some scintillating football. Fast-forward a year, they sold Suarez and reinvested the proceeds in 5-6 first team players, and have looked a shambles for a lot of the year as a result. The teamwork, the system and the understanding simply hasnt been there for them this year (especially at the start of the season).
• Spurs. Similar story to Liverpool in that they sold a key player and tried to overhaul half of their squad in one summer. It didnt work, it never works.
• Fergie's last season. We won the league comfortably, despite having arguably a weaker squad than a lot of the competition. Ferguson was lauded for 'getting the best out of the players' - which is true, but is basically another way of making my point, that it was the same core group of players that we had for years.
• City/Chelsea. Neither of these clubs have been able to attain any sort of long term success, and neither have ever really invested in any sort of a long term plan, but rather went for instant success, year after year. Chelsea did enjoy a period of success under Mourinho, when he started to implement his own system and playing style at Chelsea - ironically this is probably what got him sacked the first time round. Now he is back and implementing his style again, and the result is that they strolled the league.

The overall theme here is that attaining long term success does not come through simply going out and buying a bunch of galacticos every summer (although Real are perhaps the exception to the rule, though it must be said that Ronaldo has carried them through rough patches more than once, and they are regarded as a bit of a circus due to their policies).

Long term success comes from consistency and continuity in the playing side. There have been enough promising signs over the course of this season that we should be prepared to stick with the current core group of players and see what they can do next season, having had further time to grow/develop under LVG, and with a couple of quality additions.


The 'Original' OP:

Spoiler

The prevailing opinion seems to be nowadays that we need to spend another few hundred mil this summer replacing most of the squad. We enjoyed the masterclass from Barcelona on Wednesday and sure enough, the caf was full of "look how far behind we are" type posts.

However, as the title says, great teams are built, not bought. Barcelona are a great team, and guess what, the core of that team for the best part of the last decade has been a group of players from their academy, which was then complemented by key signings in certain positions.

You could make the same argument about United, where the class of '92 formed the core of our side for almost two decades, and was overseen by Ferguson, who was a master at continuing to build and evolving his teams.

Conversely, look at City, who spent obscene amounts of money year-on-year, but have never quite looked like a great team with any sort of consistency.

The only team which are something of an exception to the rule are Real Madrid, who are largely regarded as a bit of a circus, badly run, changing manager practically every season etc, and who have relied on Ronaldo to varying degrees over the last 7 or so years, to carry them through bad patches.


So where am I going with this? It should be pretty obvious. We dont need to go out and spend £200m this summer on another half dozen players, and nor will doing so actually guarantee us any real improvement in our play or success [compared with spending a more conservative figure on strengthening just a couple of key positions].

LVG has come in, and he has a clear philosophy and vision for how he wants us to play. We have seen first hand this season, that it took the players quite a while to really get familiar with this system, and that when it did, we have looked much better as a team, in the sense that we have a clear playing style and system to work with. Thus, even when the results are shite, there are still positives being gained such as our ball retention and pressing.

What we need, and what LVG needs, is a few years to work with this core group of players, and take them from "good" to "great". This doesnt mean we shouldnt strengthen at all, simply that overhauling the entire squad every 12 months is no way to build a successful, title winning team that can compete at the highest levels.

Spot on

 

[Billy Blaggs]

Regardless, within the thread context Spurs are showing, as are Leicester City, that the prime focus is best put on team building rather than big net spending.

Neither one would beat Real Madrid.

 

[Jig1234]

I don't think it is a case of either or. For success domestically and on a European level. You need to build a team with current group of players but you can buy someone who can add to what you have. Barcelona brought Neymar, Saurez & Rakitić. They identified a few players who could improve their team. So, I think both are sometimes needed it simply depends on the chemistry of the team and players.

This current Man Utd is tedious. No verve, zero balance or chemistry anywhere on the pitch. You need little partnerships everywhere. LB & LW, the two central midfielders. We simply pass into feet with no creative passing or movement, It's like watching strangers discovering football for the first time. I don't think we have players that compliment each other. I also think there is a lack of genuine quality. I struggle to look beyond De Gea & Martial in terms of world class or potentially world class ability. I think the rest look below par. I do think we could get more from this current group with a more attacking philosophy or style of play. It also depends on whether the manager is willing to stop favouring the likes of Rooney and Carrick. Who I feel just hinder the team and shape.

I think it is very important to want to win things on a European level. We risk losing our 4th place to Serie A. If we continue to struggle and also look down at the Europa League like it's poverty. We look down at the Europa League and I don't understand why, It's like saying if we wanted to win it we could easily do it.

We aren't above the Europa League. English teams should take it more seriously.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Neither one would beat Real Madrid.

Nor would the current United squad - on which bucket loads has been spent in net terms.

 

[Cassidy]

Regardless, within the thread context Spurs are showing, as are Leicester City, that the prime focus is best put on team building rather than big net spending.

Isn't it true that in most cases the biggest spenders finish higher up the league? This season is a bit of a one off, although I do agree that building a team is more important.

 

[nick2004]

For how many years are you prepared to stay out of CL while Lingard and Varela develop?

Can you predict for sure that they will ever develop?

What if they never amount to anything? Are you prepared to wait for the next crop to develop?

And so on...

 

[Classical Mechanic]

They are not built with Rojo and Varela shaped bricks, that is for sure.