Great Teams are Built, not Bought.

Walrus

Oppressed White Male
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
11,165
Edit: I have rewritten this post in order to clarify the point I am trying to make, since a lot of people have misunderstood it. The original post is contained in the spoiler tags at the end.

Continuity is key. We have seen teams try to buy instant success, and typically have failed to do so without long term investment/planning. My opinion and argument is that success is bred from having players with an understanding of both their role, and the roles of the other players in the team - and this comes from consistency and continuity.

The prevailing opinion on here seems to be that we need to go out and spend hundreds of millions of pounds overhauling the squad, and that by doing so, we will be challenging for the PL next year. I do not think this is the case at all.

Great teams are built, not bought. Please note, this does not mean we should be spending only x amount on players, or that we need to have y amount of academy players in our XI. What it means is that we need consistency, year on year, in the playing side.

Over the course of this season, we have seen - in my opinion - some really promising signs, as LVG's much-mentioned philosophy finally seems to have taken root. We dominated Chelsea at Stamford bridge (despite losing - I will get to that), we slaughtered City at Old Trafford, and when we have been on form, we have looked more or less unstoppable. This is after less than a year under LVG, and with definite room for improvement in the squad.
Based on the above, it seems to me that the best policy here is to stick with the majority of the current playing squad/first XI. Over time, as the players grow more used to each other and develop a better understanding, as well as mastering LVG's system, I would expect our quality of play to improve even further - look at what we did to some of the top teams this season, there is no reason why we cannot build on that and replicate it over the course of the season, if the players are given time.

As I said before, this does not mean we cant buy players. We should be looking to add 1-2 high quality additions in key areas. For me, that is the wings (Depay) and RB. We can add depth in other areas if we really want, but I would prefer seeing some of the youngsters be given a chance if injuries hit.

To illustrate my point, some examples;

  • Barcelona. A lot on this thread have argued against this one, but I think it is valid. Barcelona had a great crop of youth prospects it is true, but I would argue that the reason these players looked so good was because they had played together for years, under Guardiola, using his system. Their understanding was/is on another level to even the top teams, and it showed on the pitch. The players knew innately when to press, how to pass and move, and when another player would be making a run. This level of understanding and teamwork does not come overnight, regardless of how many superstar signings you make - it is developed over years of practice and playing with the same group of players.
  • Liverpool. Rodgers' first season started off pretty poorly, but as it went on there were clear signs of improvement. Over that summer (2013) they added a couple of key players, and then challenged for the league last year, for the first time in 20 years. They were of course helped by Suarez, but even without him they played some scintillating football. Fast-forward a year, they sold Suarez and reinvested the proceeds in 5-6 first team players, and have looked a shambles for a lot of the year as a result. The teamwork, the system and the understanding simply hasnt been there for them this year (especially at the start of the season).
  • Spurs. Similar story to Liverpool in that they sold a key player and tried to overhaul half of their squad in one summer. It didnt work, it never works.
  • Fergie's last season. We won the league comfortably, despite having arguably a weaker squad than a lot of the competition. Ferguson was lauded for 'getting the best out of the players' - which is true, but is basically another way of making my point, that it was the same core group of players that we had for years.
  • City/Chelsea. Neither of these clubs have been able to attain any sort of long term success, and neither have ever really invested in any sort of a long term plan, but rather went for instant success, year after year. Chelsea did enjoy a period of success under Mourinho, when he started to implement his own system and playing style at Chelsea - ironically this is probably what got him sacked the first time round. Now he is back and implementing his style again, and the result is that they strolled the league.
The overall theme here is that attaining long term success does not come through simply going out and buying a bunch of galacticos every summer (although Real are perhaps the exception to the rule, though it must be said that Ronaldo has carried them through rough patches more than once, and they are regarded as a bit of a circus due to their policies).

Long term success comes from consistency and continuity in the playing side. There have been enough promising signs over the course of this season that we should be prepared to stick with the current core group of players and see what they can do next season, having had further time to grow/develop under LVG, and with a couple of quality additions.


The 'Original' OP:
The prevailing opinion seems to be nowadays that we need to spend another few hundred mil this summer replacing most of the squad. We enjoyed the masterclass from Barcelona on Wednesday and sure enough, the caf was full of "look how far behind we are" type posts.

However, as the title says, great teams are built, not bought. Barcelona are a great team, and guess what, the core of that team for the best part of the last decade has been a group of players from their academy, which was then complemented by key signings in certain positions.

You could make the same argument about United, where the class of '92 formed the core of our side for almost two decades, and was overseen by Ferguson, who was a master at continuing to build and evolving his teams.

Conversely, look at City, who spent obscene amounts of money year-on-year, but have never quite looked like a great team with any sort of consistency.

The only team which are something of an exception to the rule are Real Madrid, who are largely regarded as a bit of a circus, badly run, changing manager practically every season etc, and who have relied on Ronaldo to varying degrees over the last 7 or so years, to carry them through bad patches.


So where am I going with this? It should be pretty obvious. We dont need to go out and spend £200m this summer on another half dozen players, and nor will doing so actually guarantee us any real improvement in our play or success [compared with spending a more conservative figure on strengthening just a couple of key positions].

LVG has come in, and he has a clear philosophy and vision for how he wants us to play. We have seen first hand this season, that it took the players quite a while to really get familiar with this system, and that when it did, we have looked much better as a team, in the sense that we have a clear playing style and system to work with. Thus, even when the results are shite, there are still positives being gained such as our ball retention and pressing.

What we need, and what LVG needs, is a few years to work with this core group of players, and take them from "good" to "great". This doesnt mean we shouldnt strengthen at all, simply that overhauling the entire squad every 12 months is no way to build a successful, title winning team that can compete at the highest levels.
 
Last edited:

Cina

full member
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
50,911
You can't use Barcelona as an example. That was amongst the best set of academy players ever produced at one time. Not to mention Spanish football is light years ahead when it comes to talent right now.

It's pretty blatant our current squad isn't at a level to compete with the best in Europe, and will not be if we just give it time. Relying on our academy (which has produced bugger all of note in a long time) and our current set of players won't get us to that level.
 

Jaxa

Full Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
2,928
Location
Old Trafford
I agree on some parts, we have great players here but we also have a lot of starters who are not good enough, in the last few seasons Barca have bought around 10 Players and a lot of there core key players now are some of them, Neymar,Suarez,Rakitic and Jordi Alba and even Ter Stegan, plus Suarez and Neymar together cost the club around 140m or so and thats what you have to pay for these world class players.

I don't care about how much we spend and find these how much cash do we have threads stupid, but we are in real need of new players so LVG can build as he said a Balanced squad
 

Damien

Self-Aware RedCafe Database (and Admin)
Staff
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
97,267
Location
Also won Best Gif/Photoshop 2021
You can't use Barcelona as an example. That was amongst the best set of academy players ever produced at one time. Not to mention Spanish football is light years ahead when it comes to talent right now.

It's pretty blatant our current squad isn't at a level to compete with the best in Europe. Relying on our academy (which has produced bugger all of note in a long time) and our current set of players won't get us to that level.
and over the last few years they've strengthened by buying Suarez and Neymar for well over 100m
 

prarek

Full Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
8,636
Id say it has to be bought and built. Look at Chelsea, their youth academy is pointless.
 

Mojo_

its more fun being a feeder
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
4,016
You need at least a half great team/manager to begin with.
 

Cina

full member
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
50,911
and over the last few years they've strengthened by buying Suarez and Neymar for well over 100m
Yeah, exactly. Not to mention Real are pretty much entirely bought, and Bayern got back to the top by buying the most talented players from their main rivals (although they spent very wisely doing so).
 

Cina

full member
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
50,911
Also Mourinho in two years has almost completely ripped that Chelsea team apart too, and will probably keep doing so in order to get them to the top of Europe.
 

An Irish Red

New Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
6,294
Location
Ros Earcáin/Tuaim/an Baile Meánach
Barcelona had Messi, Iniesta, Busquets and Xavi all come through their youth set-up. That's a once in a lifetime group for them, we can't hope for that or plan for it here.

We have to spend money to build a squad capable of achieving our goals. Obviously it's important that we don't succumb to transfer market vanity; signing players based on name rather than compatibility, but we can't get to where we want to be without bringing in top quality players.
 

Raw

Full Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2013
Messages
25,433
Location
Manchester, UK
Barca and the Class of 92 were once in a generation things, you can't compare us to that. It's far too risky at this stage to put trust in some youngsters/current players and build a team with them. Football's changed, you'll get sacked before you even get the chance to develop that team. What if it doesn't work out? That's just another few years wasted trying to build something that didn't work as the team dwindles around 7th place, losing fans, sponsorships and income every year.

Buying players to improve the squad is just a much safer option, and one United can definitely afford.
 

El-Manos

Full Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
14,960
Location
Ireland
Today we lacked a cocky, confident player who raises his game in such situations. The likes of Depay can provide that, and even Januzaj I would say in the future.
 

United22

Full Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
2,802
Barcelona only have Busquets, Messi and Iniesta left from La Masia in their first XI. Bravo/Ter Stegen, Neymar, Suarez, Rakitic, Alba, Alves, Mathieu, Mascherano , Pique were all bought from other teams. You could say the same for Bayern too, with the exception of Lahm, Muller and Schweinsteiger, the rest of their first XI are players that they have bought. Even us at our very best in 2008 had probably one or two players at a push from our youth academy playing in the first XI.

The key to winning is buying smartly, and only that. Not spunking somewhere in the region of £150 million randomly and hoping for the best
 

Sultan

Gentleness adorns everything
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
48,569
Location
Redcafe
Don't know. City and Chelsea have purchased a few titles. United are going same route.
 

diarm

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
16,804
I agree with the OP that the greatest teams are built as opposed to bought. The great Barca, Milan, Bayern and United sides of the pro era prove that.
The problem is that those sort of cores tend to come along once in a generation, and that only if you're lucky and have an exceptional youth system.

You can't base your whole club around hoping a world class bunch of youngsters like Giggs, Scholes, Beckham and Neville, or Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and Puyol all break through at more or less the same time. Not if you want to compete year after year.

Milan and United fell into the trap of focusing too much on this ethos (Milan may have been financially constrained also) and we both spent a few years in the doldrums as a result. Barca and Bayern are better at recognising when to rely on their youth and when to insert major investments.
 

Attila

Full Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
11,062
Location
RIP Mino
Supports
Trad Bricks
What about Chelsea in 2004? That team was mainly bought and was pretty great. It's very rare to that teams get so many high quality youngsters at once and you basically have to just go out and buy good players to build a team. City just bought extremely poorly.

I hope we spend £150m+ this summer. Need a RB, CB, DM, cover for Herrera/Fellaini, Depay is coming and there are stories that RVP/Falcao will be off. You can't fix those issues without spending money.
 

bosnian_red

Worst scout to ever exist
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
58,077
Location
Canada
Its a combination. You can't buy a group of 26-27 year olds, all in their primes and expect sustained success. Has to be a mixture. All the signs point to us doing that, signing one of the brightest young players in Depay, going for clyne, gundogan and Hummels. All fairly young, and apart from Hummels, none with the world class reputation (even then, his is gone).

Then we also have McNair, januzaj, Wilson and Pereira who all look like very promising youngster coming through the youth, and Shaw, Smalling, Jones all still very young but first team players. Nobody is saying we'll but bale, Vidal, Hummels, and all our problems will suddenly be sorted. We'll definitely improve but it'll be the right types of players which is what is needed.
 

Lawman

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
10,639
Location
Scotland
Not sure Madrid or Barca or PSG or Chelsea agree with this!
 

Cina

full member
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
50,911
Don't know. City and Chelsea have purchased a few titles. United are going same route.
What choice do we have when our academy has produced the grand total of Danny Welbeck in the last number of years, who is now showing at Arsenal that he's not remotely up to the task.

It's not like Fergie never bought squads either.
 

BennyBlanco

fixated with Shaw's bum
Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Messages
5,803
I take what OP is saying, he has a point, but the comparisson with Barca isnt a great one, unless we're prepared to wait for our next 1992 youth team for upwards of 50 years.
Wenger is probably the closest to someone who builds a team over time rather than buys big every summer.
 

Walrus

Oppressed White Male
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
11,165
You can't use Barcelona as an example. That was amongst the best set of academy players ever produced at one time. Not to mention Spanish football is light years ahead when it comes to talent right now.

It's pretty blatant our current squad isn't at a level to compete with the best in Europe, and will not be if we just give it time. Relying on our academy (which has produced bugger all of note in a long time) and our current set of players won't get us to that level.
Its not solely about having x amount of academy players - it is about not changing half the squad every year.

I agree on some parts, we have great players here but we also have a lot of starters who are not good enough, in the last few seasons Barca have bought around 10 Players and a lot of there core key players now are some of them, Neymar,Suarez,Rakitic and Jordi Alba and even Ter Stegan, plus Suarez and Neymar together cost the club around 140m or so and thats what you have to pay for these world class players.

I don't care about how much we spend and find these how much cash do we have threads stupid, but we are in real need of new players so LVG can build as he said a Balanced squad
and over the last few years they've strengthened by buying Suarez and Neymar for well over 100m
Barca have spent money of course, but they have done so to build on their original core of players, and to replace aging players who were in decline.

Id say it has to be bought and built. Look at Chelsea, their youth academy is pointless.
Would you regard any of the Chelsea teams of the last decade as really great though? They have certainly been effective at times, but so have plenty of Allardyce and Pulis teams.

Also Mourinho in two years has almost completely ripped that Chelsea team apart too, and will probably keep doing so in order to get them to the top of Europe.
I disagree with this - what Mourinho has done is implement a specific style of play that he wants to use, and moulded his players to fit that. The likes of Hazard and Oscar have changed dramatically as players in the last couple of years at Chelsea, in their work rate and defensive contributions. Its actually a good example of what I am talking about when I say building a team.
 

Devil may care

New Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
35,976
You buy the material needed and hire the engineers required to build a Rolls Royce, right now we have thew parts for an upper level Audi.
 

Cina

full member
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
50,911
Its not solely about having x amount of academy players - it is about not changing half the squad every year.





Barca have spent money of course, but they have done so to build on their original core of players, and to replace aging players who were in decline.



Would you regard any of the Chelsea teams of the last decade as really great though? They have certainly been effective at times, but so have plenty of Allardyce and Pulis teams.



I disagree with this - what Mourinho has done is implement a specific style of play that he wants to use, and moulded his players to fit that. The likes of Hazard and Oscar have changed dramatically as players in the last couple of years at Chelsea, in their work rate and defensive contributions. Its actually a good example of what I am talking about when I say building a team.
Right, but I'm not saying we need to buy loads of players either. We do need to buy some great ones, though. We should be doing what Real and Barca do, spend big to get the best. We're supposed to be the biggest club in the world, aren't we?

Unfortunately due to under investment, poor academy output, and poor recent spending, we DO currently need to spend big and buy big to get back where we want to be. It's unavoidable. When we get there, that's when we can start doing what you're suggesting. But doing it right now would be silly.
 

Stretford End Phil

New Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
2,323
Location
Still laughing at Scousers.
We have always bought top players - Law, Morgan, Robbo, Eric, and the rest. What we used to have was a block of home grown and few bargain basement players but that's getting harder in a world full of scouts. Sadly the modern game is about buying the players and building a squad. It's a crazy game because the cost comes out of our pockets as we demand success.
 

Sultan

Gentleness adorns everything
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
48,569
Location
Redcafe
What choice do we have when our academy has produced the grand total of Danny Welbeck in the last number of years, who is now showing at Arsenal that he's not remotely up to the task.

It's not like Fergie never bought squads either.
I was answering the thread starters question. We actually don't have a choice but buy. Buying is the only way to stay ahead unless we produce something like the class of 92, or find a genius of a manager.
 

Cina

full member
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
50,911
I was answering the thread starters question. We actually don't have a choice but buy. Buying is the only way to stay ahead unless we produce something like the class of 92, or find a genius of a manager.
oh yeah I know Sults, I was agreeing with you, sorry if it didn't come across that way!
 

ZIDANE

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
7,540
Location
Manchester
Supports
The Philosophy.
Every top club fights for the next young talent these days and they are often bought for millions. Under investment means you aren't keeping up, Arsenal and United have found that out in recent seasons. Clubs need to perform to keep the money coming in - buying is one way to ensure that you can compete.

I do agree that we shouldn't be chopping and changing most players every year but seriously as you said it is only Madrid who do that at such a scale. City have had the same key players for the past few seasons (Silva, Yaya, Hart, Kompany). Chelsea had the same spine for a long time and have now built a new team. The rest like PSG are starting a journey to buy the best which always means a big influx of players.

Most teams buy big players to improve the starting 11 and then some young talent for the future; Oscar, Herrera, Hazard, Varrati, Depay, Shaw, etc. That's always been the way?
 

FromTheBench

Full Member
Joined
May 3, 2014
Messages
10,479
I agree with the sentiment of this thread.

The whole we need to spend Hundreds of million and our squad is shit and not upto the mark argument is done too much. Especially when our main problem has been injuries/fitness, and mainly not having a coherent team unit playing together in a patter and system.

Terry was being called on being past it under Benitez and AVB, Cahill was seen as average and nothing more. Ivanovic was okay utility player etc..

Mourinho came and turned that same into again much more higher rated and coherent defensive unit in 1 season carrying on till now without buying another 50 million defender. Infact the whole team structure became more coherent and with a pattern.

Edit -

Also to illustrate my point further by CAF's standards these days SAF's last season team was supposed to finish 6th/7th at most due to "lack of quality".

But they ran away with the league with almost a record points total and should have reached the CL Semi atleast if not for that Cakir.
 

Invictus

Poster of the Year 2015 & 2018
Staff
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
15,263
Supports
Piracy on the High Seas.
Not sure self-righteous condescension and snootily labeling people "armchair general" is the best opening sentence to a thread.

Anway, since the Barcelona example was used - to fully appreciate their success you have to consider the bigger picture and go all the way back to Cruyff's tenure, and his emphasis on totaalvoetbal as a cornerstone for the academy which had a trickle down effect after almost a decade. The likes of Messi, Xavi, Puyol, Iniesta, Cesc, Pique etc are the results of careful planning, and didn't just crop up overnight. We can't arbitrarily pluck this moment in time to further the argument. They produced major talents later on, but in the beginning the most decisive pieces for Cruyff's Barcelona (the spiritual ancestors of the current side) were the likes of Laudrup (one of the greatest #10s of all time - bought from Juventus), Romario (one of the greatest strikers of all time - bought from PSV Eindhoven), Ronald Koeman (one of the best defenders of the past 25 years - bought from PSV Eindhoven), Hristo Stochkov (one of the best strikers of the 90s - bought from Sofia), Miguel Nadal (bought from Espanyol) etc. for large amounts of money. One could argue that United doesn't have players of that caliber to be the building block of things to come.

You need a nucleus to build the team around first, and then start developing players, as Barcelona's history shows. Patience is a great virtue but you need the raw materials to mold. You look at our defense - and the have major problems staying fit - not a great starting place if you can't consistently rely on them, especially once get European football and the margins for error are reduced to a 10th. Our strikers are ageing, and the midfield seemingly crumbles without Carrick. That has to be addressed pronto with top notch additions. Since we don't have a good enough foundation right now, the squad has to fortified with quality players bought for large transfer fee. Also it's easy to forget, but Barcelona had a 6 year barren spell from the late 90s where they won nothing of substance. Until the arrival of the likes of Ronaldino, Eto'o, Davids (from other clubs) that is.

The motto "great teams are built, not bought" is great in theory but doesn't always translate in practice. If it was so simple to build great sides everyone would be doing so instead of hemorrhaging revenue on transfers. Ajax would still be developing Cruyff and Neeskens and Krol and Keizer; or Van der Sar and Seedorf and Kluivert - and dominating Europe. But they aren't because these things go on cycles and relying on an outdated notion will only set you back, as teams like them found out the hard wau. United could have a good core of academy players thus reducing the need for imports, but it will be a very long term project and until then it's imperative that we plug major deficiencies in the starting XI/ the squad in general. Objectively speaking we need to tweak the academy and the results will only be evident in 7-8 years at the very least. And even then, the mathematical odds are against a glut of high quality starters. Even Barcelona haven't produced players of significance since the emergence of Busquets and Thiago almost half a decade ago and have spent Top-5 all time transfer money on two separate players in consecutive windows.
 

VeevaVee

The worst "V"
Scout
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
46,262
Location
Manchester
It's both.

We need to spend to stay competing and at the top level. Hell, we need to spend to get back to the very top. There's no time to be fannying about nurturing young lads hoping they come good while knock about in 6th/5th/4th position. We'll end up stuck there.
When you have top quality and they are playing well, you can bring youth through properly in a controlled manner.