You can buy a team, but we spent our money on dross and that's what's costing us. Of all the players we bought this summer, no one would be in Barca's first team, (maybe ADM because of the status he carries), we invest wrongly on players who dont bring us to a higher level. Look at the signings of Fabregas/Matic/Costa and what they did for Chelsea, their impact and compare it to the impact our new signings have had. Or look how Sanchez massively improved Arsenal and even carried them for a while. Almost all of our transfers in the past year, havent been succesful bar de Gea, and I'd now say Young who is putting a shift for us. (Rvp for that first season ofcourse too). Look at Juventus team and what they've spent, that's buying and building wisely.
Great Teams are Built, not Bought.
- Thread starter Walrus
- Start date
What a glorious lineup. 6 out of 11 were English as well!
I can see what the OP is saying though I actually think we will sign around 4 players this window. Those players along with the ones who have put in an honest shift this season will form the basis of our building exercise. So it requires a bit of both I'd say.
I get your point but not much point comparing a Champions League final line up with a line up where we were already through and only played a couple of our actual starting line up.Not just that, up until 5 years ago we were on the same level as Barcelona and Real Madrid. Arguably even better with 3 champions league finals in the space of 5 years then suddenly our level just went down when we started signing these kind of players.
It's quite amusing how in the space of 4 years you go from this
To this
Rant over.
I'm quite annoyed by the seemingly lack of maintenance to our squad during the last few years of Sir Alex.
What about is exactly the thread? to develop the academy or trust a squad during 4/5 years and expect results ?
The idea is quite charming and has a sense of classic aura around it, to build a team that can reach the ultimate heights. However, we now live in a football era whereby the commerce around it is from such calibre that managers dont receive the same mercy from the boards in comparison to the past. Apart from Wenger, i can not name another long serving manager at a top club. Is that a coincidence ? I beg to differ. Times have changed influenced by the relentless commercialisation. The latest tv deal was the last step into a whole new format of the game started by the people, developing to a business prone to elite investors. Sure the FFP system is an instrument introducted to slow the sharks down, but one can not prevent clubs like Madrid paying a stunning 100 milion for Bale. The thread are teams build or bought. Well, Ronaldo was bought to eventually build a team which for a couple of years could only be stopped by Barcelona and was dominating the domestic league. Personally, it’s all about the right balance. Invest in those positions where there is a need for and if that offer can only be met by a big offer one should not shy away to close the deal. With LVG we have a thinker who puts a lot of of value in laying a fundament for teams to grow in the coming seasons. Yes, we have broken the british record with Di Maria, but if the man of the match of a CL final becomes available and you have the resources, why not. To keep this short, im in the middle. I think it has a moralistic value for the younger generation to see players from the academy making the step into the infamous first team, but at the same time if the likes of Pogba, Veratti become available and they could fill the gap for the coming years i would not hesitate to support such deal.
Apart from Barcelona getting lucky with great players coming through around the same time (like our class of 92) they've spent feck loads for that current team. Also Madrids success in the last 20 years is down to money.
What makes it easier for the Spainish duo is they are the only top-top clubs in a country that dwarfs England in terms of youth talent so they have first pick of all the best youth players at very young age or wait until they reach a top level with another club and buy them, the same with Bayern and who are the three best teams in the world now? Madrid, Barca and Bayern.
We need to lift the laws on youth training in England if they want to compete at club and international level.
What makes it easier for the Spainish duo is they are the only top-top clubs in a country that dwarfs England in terms of youth talent so they have first pick of all the best youth players at very young age or wait until they reach a top level with another club and buy them, the same with Bayern and who are the three best teams in the world now? Madrid, Barca and Bayern.
We need to lift the laws on youth training in England if they want to compete at club and international level.
You can buy players. You must then train and develop those players in order for them to become a good team.
Regarding all the Barcelona comments - obviously they had a very talented bunch of players come through. But how much of that is truly freakish luck, and how much of it is the fact that they had a bunch of players who grew up together and understood each other's style of play perfectly?
The latter is a big factor. If a Xavi or Iniesta had come through an academy without the rest, I doubt they would be considered as good a player now. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts for me, and that is the mark of a great team with a good and distinct playing style, and years of development and growth in the right environment, together.
Plenty of clubs have tried to simply buy a great team - City, PSG and to a lesser extent Chelsea. Hundreds of millions, but they are a mile off being considered truly great teams. Chelsea were the first to be bought out by a sugar daddy, and as such, now that we are 10 years on, so they are now at the stage where they have that core of players and can work on putting on the finishing touches - and it has shown by the fact that they comfortably won the league this year. We should be doing the same.
If the bit in bold is essentially the point of the thread, you're kind of just stating the obvious a bit, aren't you? It's easier said than done, and truly 'great' teams don't come around very often.
As for City, PSG and early Chelsea: True comparisons can't be made. City, PSG and early-Abramovich Chelsea were all about achieving success immediately, and at almost all costs. Their focus wasn't/isn't on 'building', so to speak.
@Speak the point of the thread is that I feel the fans don't have enough patience, that we expect instant results and instant success, and that throwing enough money at a problem will fix it.
It is a reaction to the cries for Smalling, Jones, Fellaini, Young, Valencia and others to all be shown the door because they are not readymade world class players. In my opinion we have a good set of players at the club already, which given a couple of years of growth and a couple of shrewd signings, could become a really successful team for us. But most I feel just want to try to go for some sort of quick fix because we didn't win the league this season.
Speaking of this season, we have seen a huge improvement, and a lot of it has come from players that are already at the club, not the superstars brought in over last summer. Again it is player growth. LVG has improved several players in the team by having faith in them, by giving them consistent gametime, and by introducing a new style of play compared to last year. We have seen substantial improvement on the pitch even though the results haven't always reflected that - but the point is that LVG must be given time to work, and this should be with the existing squad which has already shown very promising signs this season.
It is a reaction to the cries for Smalling, Jones, Fellaini, Young, Valencia and others to all be shown the door because they are not readymade world class players. In my opinion we have a good set of players at the club already, which given a couple of years of growth and a couple of shrewd signings, could become a really successful team for us. But most I feel just want to try to go for some sort of quick fix because we didn't win the league this season.
Speaking of this season, we have seen a huge improvement, and a lot of it has come from players that are already at the club, not the superstars brought in over last summer. Again it is player growth. LVG has improved several players in the team by having faith in them, by giving them consistent gametime, and by introducing a new style of play compared to last year. We have seen substantial improvement on the pitch even though the results haven't always reflected that - but the point is that LVG must be given time to work, and this should be with the existing squad which has already shown very promising signs this season.
I understand OP, but in reality, pretty much every top team is bought.
LvG cannot turn shit into gold, especially he's known for his " hard mode" possession football. Seriously with current players, I don't see how we gonna challenge for UCL and EPL.We have many average footballers in he team and LvG's philosophy actually confuses them more than it confuses oppositing teams.
I'm not a big fan of possession football but if we stick with LvG and believe in his idea then buying star players is the only way for it to work.
I'm not a big fan of possession football but if we stick with LvG and believe in his idea then buying star players is the only way for it to work.
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To build a team you need a manager who ain't expected to win trophies for a few years when building, he has to be in for the long term 10 years plus.
In this day and age where sponsorship revenue is huge, clubs are expected to win trophies and if they don't they need to bounce back quickly. So this will lead to spend big like we did on Di Maria.
I think what we need is a mix of both and that is the way forward. But at this present moment we can't afford to rely on youth which is a shame but we need a solid foundation again for us to introduce youth again!
LVG is the perfect manager to set this up for the future of the club!
In this day and age where sponsorship revenue is huge, clubs are expected to win trophies and if they don't they need to bounce back quickly. So this will lead to spend big like we did on Di Maria.
I think what we need is a mix of both and that is the way forward. But at this present moment we can't afford to rely on youth which is a shame but we need a solid foundation again for us to introduce youth again!
LVG is the perfect manager to set this up for the future of the club!
Chelsea bought a brilliant team back in 04/05, Man City bought a decent team recently that lead to them winning 2 titles in 3 years.
We haven't changed. Look at United in the past and the number of British transfer records we had broken or even the Scottish/Irish pipelines over the last 40 years. Class of 92 is an anomaly.
But things have been more more complex with that living within 45mins radius (or is it 90mins) rule and FFP.
Completely disagree with the OP. Look at Bayern, Real, Chelsea, PSG...great teams competing at the highest European levels...our current squad wouldn't weigh up to diddly-squat against these teams and if we insist on building and waiting for academy prospects, it won't be long before we'll become another Liverpool.
Good thing though is that our investors, our board, our coach everyone recognises this and is being pro-active.
We need the best to compete with the best. And as @Cina mentions, our academy has been pretty mediocre for a long time...
Good thing though is that our investors, our board, our coach everyone recognises this and is being pro-active.
We need the best to compete with the best. And as @Cina mentions, our academy has been pretty mediocre for a long time...
Give him a break. Based on his moniker, I suspect English isnt his lingua franca and is probably his 3rd language.I believe you mean...bought? 10th time lucky maybe
Can't really say where someone is from with that username. Sun Tzu is well famous. Wasn't being serious either...bought/brought is a very common mistake even with native speakers
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu
Arguments sound great.But how many in this thread actually know about the current situation of United's academy or England youth football before dismissing it as a whole because of "past records"?
Totally agree that the great teams are built not bought.By "built" doesn't mean you have to promote half of the team from the academy.It means having a core group of players who developed mutual understanding by playing together for a long time to go with their individual talents, preferably either from the academy or bought from a quite young age and developed.Buying 5-6 players every summer to "quick fix" the weak positions in the team and/or form the "galaticos" isn't the solution, unless you have Real's money to break the transfer record every year (and even if we have I don't think that's what our fans really want to see).We are talking about great teams not "good teams" like the current Man City or Chelsea.
Class of 92 is a perfect example.Not because they are bought through from the academy but more about Fergie's insistence to play and develop them when he could have keep or sign more established names.Later on he brought the "right" players in the likes of Keane and Stam who strengthen that core group of players to be a real intimidating team.
That saying I don't think there's ever been a great team that contains many injury-prone players as this United team.You can't be a core player if you're out for half of the number of games.
Totally agree that the great teams are built not bought.By "built" doesn't mean you have to promote half of the team from the academy.It means having a core group of players who developed mutual understanding by playing together for a long time to go with their individual talents, preferably either from the academy or bought from a quite young age and developed.Buying 5-6 players every summer to "quick fix" the weak positions in the team and/or form the "galaticos" isn't the solution, unless you have Real's money to break the transfer record every year (and even if we have I don't think that's what our fans really want to see).We are talking about great teams not "good teams" like the current Man City or Chelsea.
Class of 92 is a perfect example.Not because they are bought through from the academy but more about Fergie's insistence to play and develop them when he could have keep or sign more established names.Later on he brought the "right" players in the likes of Keane and Stam who strengthen that core group of players to be a real intimidating team.
That saying I don't think there's ever been a great team that contains many injury-prone players as this United team.You can't be a core player if you're out for half of the number of games.
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If you want to build something great, use great materials. You will never be able to build a magnificent structure using sands and stones.
chelsea failed at buying a team for years. The reason for chelsea's success is mourinho. If anyone thinks it's chiefly beause of the money they spend they have selective memory
Real Madrid bought success, Bayern bought success even Barcelona with Suarez and Neymar have bought success there is no shame in buying the right set of players to bring success to the club. Building up the academy is a completely different thing and you cant expect us to put forward a generation of players like Barcelona has we cant even replicate the class of 92. I would like for us to invest in youth but they have to be up to the standards there is no point of calling up young players if they are not good enough which should always be the bottom line.
Wanted to make a post here, but then read this (which is far better than whatever I planned to write), so just quoting it to the new page.
They would have been successful with or without Mourinho. It took Abramovich pretty much the same amount of time as City's owners to win the league after taking over.
It works? What world are you living in? I am not sure about your standards but Real Madrid's return since they started their new Galactico era is mediocre. I certainly would consider it a failure if our next 6 or 7 years yield the same return.
Reality is every successful team nowadays got there through investment.
Even when you look at the Era of Liverpool supremacy all their stars were bought. The period they relied on the spice boys they got found out. Teams like Palace, West ham and Southampton who are known for academy players just end up safe in the PL.
United have a very good PL academy, if we concentrated on that we would joint hose clubs. Very rare for a united academy player not to get another PL club or European top league club.
We are stuck because as we have seen so often with technical players, they do not often deliver in PL. So we build PL players, unfortunately they usually can't make the UCL grade.
Even when you look at the Era of Liverpool supremacy all their stars were bought. The period they relied on the spice boys they got found out. Teams like Palace, West ham and Southampton who are known for academy players just end up safe in the PL.
United have a very good PL academy, if we concentrated on that we would joint hose clubs. Very rare for a united academy player not to get another PL club or European top league club.
We are stuck because as we have seen so often with technical players, they do not often deliver in PL. So we build PL players, unfortunately they usually can't make the UCL grade.
but they were successful with mourinho.... then he left and they weren't successful.... then hes back and they are again. Similarly city won some titles but now are left with an aging squad who've never made a dent in the CL. The model doesn't seem to bring success to me. Mourinho certainly brings success, that model is tried and test, he even won a CL with a pretty limited inter milan
It never stops to baffle how extremist opinions can be. It really is like there are no grey areas whatsoever for a lot of people. It's either we should buy, buy and buy and that it is the only road to success or the other extreme where we should solely rely on academy players. To be fair, the former is a much more popular view than the former and as far as I can tell, it is driven by the frustrations some people have about the way Fergie conducted our business and how it compared to the way other European teams have. First of all, the idea that there is a clear plan or formula that will ensure success is a ridiculous one. As much as it makes you feel in control and secure to identify a clear problem and solution, it really does not work like that in most things in life, let alone football. The other thing I do not understand is when people just throw in the names of certain clubs as if they conduct their business exactly the same and they all reach the same results. It really gives the impression that in European football, there are teams that spend a lot of money on the best players and therefore win trophies and others who do not and fail to win trophies. Whereas that is not strictly wrong, it is a very lazy over simplification of the situation that aims to make things easier to understand and therefore give us the illusion of knowing what on earth we are talking about.
If we are looking at a team of the standard of Barcelona 2009-2011, we are really dreaming if we believe any amount of investment is going to take us there. It simply won't happen as a team of that magnitude is the result of many factors falling together at exactly the right place and the right time. An incredible academy production blossoming at the same time, the best player in the world fulfilling his potential, the tactical vision and philosophy of visionaries from Michels, Cruyf and Van Gaal and finally the expertise and talent of Guardiola complimenting all of that to produce such a unique team. You take one piece of the puzzle and it is not the same as we can see now with Barcelona and Guardiola. If we are talking about "normal" top teams, my examples would be ours from 2007-09 and Bayern Munich in 2013 to now. Those two have dominated their league and had the best return in Europe bar Barcelona. If we look at these teams, there were very few big money signings but a lot of smart signings such as Evra, Vidic, Carrick, Dante, Boateng, Mandzukic, Martinez. A few signings with the eye for potential that paid dividends in the form of Rooney, Ronaldo and Ribéry and a the odd establish name in the form of Robben and maybe Rio? Both of those sides have also benefited extremely from continuity. They played together for years and developed their cohesion and understanding by going through thick and thin and experiencing failures over a number of years. The recruitment policy was balanced and not extravagant, there were certainly no head turner type of signings but a balanced approach between academy players, smart investment in quality but not flashy players and a sprinkle of the established world class talent.
Finally we have what I would call the third category which would include teams like Chelsea and Real Madrid. Teams that are always competitive but simply never won enough to justify belonging to the same category as the aforementioned teams. They are for me a clear example of why the money approach works but also why it fails. Those teams could afford to change managers at will, playing staff and generally had very little continuity but still remained competitive which shows that spending does work. However, the lack of continuity and short sighted approach with the aim to buy established to paper over the crack has also limited these teams to what I would call "almost there" level. The answer is really simply balance and patience but that is too boring, we like to think that there is the obvious limitation, we compare to whoever is doing well at the moment and think we should have whatever they're having and that we'll magically be successful over night.
I don't know about everyone on here but I wouldn't see it as a success being at the level Chelsea or Real Madrid, it is better than where we are obviously but not satisfactory. I understand it is unrealistic to reach Barcelona standards but I think reaching our standard in 2008 or Bayern's later on is an achievable target is where we should be looking at. We did that through slowly building and developing a team, never destabilizing the harmony of the team and also having a stand out performer in Cristiano Ronaldo. Only having stand out performers like Real Madrid will take you close but not quite there just like not having outstanding performers will do the same at best like Borussia Dortmund. The key word though is patience and the right management, we have gone through 3 painful years by our standards at the time. Bayern have gone through the same pre Van Gaal and in both cases, it was followed by a sustained period of success without a magical overnight investment. The conclusion for me is that there is no way to know what exactly we need. We could easily have a team in our hands that will develop the same way our 2004-2006 team developed. In which case, heavy changes will only be a disruption. It could also be the case that the team does not have what it takes regardless of how much time it is given but only Van Gaal and the coaching staff will know that and I for one am willing to trust their judgment as I am in no position to make such a judgment. Two things I can assume with any degree of certainty are that we need time; almost there teams can be built within a season, great ones take longer. The second one is that we need a stand out performer, a game changer. We were lucky to have Ronaldo in that period, Bayern had Robben and Ribéry and I just feel that now we lack that. Would be great if Depay can reach that level but it is unrealistic which is why I think that this is the only type of signing I can safely assume that we need, the game changer type. Anything else in the back or middle or whatever is like I said impossible to tell as us fans simply do not have enough data and previous experience shows us that it could go either way.
If we are looking at a team of the standard of Barcelona 2009-2011, we are really dreaming if we believe any amount of investment is going to take us there. It simply won't happen as a team of that magnitude is the result of many factors falling together at exactly the right place and the right time. An incredible academy production blossoming at the same time, the best player in the world fulfilling his potential, the tactical vision and philosophy of visionaries from Michels, Cruyf and Van Gaal and finally the expertise and talent of Guardiola complimenting all of that to produce such a unique team. You take one piece of the puzzle and it is not the same as we can see now with Barcelona and Guardiola. If we are talking about "normal" top teams, my examples would be ours from 2007-09 and Bayern Munich in 2013 to now. Those two have dominated their league and had the best return in Europe bar Barcelona. If we look at these teams, there were very few big money signings but a lot of smart signings such as Evra, Vidic, Carrick, Dante, Boateng, Mandzukic, Martinez. A few signings with the eye for potential that paid dividends in the form of Rooney, Ronaldo and Ribéry and a the odd establish name in the form of Robben and maybe Rio? Both of those sides have also benefited extremely from continuity. They played together for years and developed their cohesion and understanding by going through thick and thin and experiencing failures over a number of years. The recruitment policy was balanced and not extravagant, there were certainly no head turner type of signings but a balanced approach between academy players, smart investment in quality but not flashy players and a sprinkle of the established world class talent.
Finally we have what I would call the third category which would include teams like Chelsea and Real Madrid. Teams that are always competitive but simply never won enough to justify belonging to the same category as the aforementioned teams. They are for me a clear example of why the money approach works but also why it fails. Those teams could afford to change managers at will, playing staff and generally had very little continuity but still remained competitive which shows that spending does work. However, the lack of continuity and short sighted approach with the aim to buy established to paper over the crack has also limited these teams to what I would call "almost there" level. The answer is really simply balance and patience but that is too boring, we like to think that there is the obvious limitation, we compare to whoever is doing well at the moment and think we should have whatever they're having and that we'll magically be successful over night.
I don't know about everyone on here but I wouldn't see it as a success being at the level Chelsea or Real Madrid, it is better than where we are obviously but not satisfactory. I understand it is unrealistic to reach Barcelona standards but I think reaching our standard in 2008 or Bayern's later on is an achievable target is where we should be looking at. We did that through slowly building and developing a team, never destabilizing the harmony of the team and also having a stand out performer in Cristiano Ronaldo. Only having stand out performers like Real Madrid will take you close but not quite there just like not having outstanding performers will do the same at best like Borussia Dortmund. The key word though is patience and the right management, we have gone through 3 painful years by our standards at the time. Bayern have gone through the same pre Van Gaal and in both cases, it was followed by a sustained period of success without a magical overnight investment. The conclusion for me is that there is no way to know what exactly we need. We could easily have a team in our hands that will develop the same way our 2004-2006 team developed. In which case, heavy changes will only be a disruption. It could also be the case that the team does not have what it takes regardless of how much time it is given but only Van Gaal and the coaching staff will know that and I for one am willing to trust their judgment as I am in no position to make such a judgment. Two things I can assume with any degree of certainty are that we need time; almost there teams can be built within a season, great ones take longer. The second one is that we need a stand out performer, a game changer. We were lucky to have Ronaldo in that period, Bayern had Robben and Ribéry and I just feel that now we lack that. Would be great if Depay can reach that level but it is unrealistic which is why I think that this is the only type of signing I can safely assume that we need, the game changer type. Anything else in the back or middle or whatever is like I said impossible to tell as us fans simply do not have enough data and previous experience shows us that it could go either way.
Ancelotti won the league with the same aging squad. Di Matteo won the CL with the same squad that Mourinho couldn't. Inter Milan had veteran players all in their prime years. Mourinho may be the best but Chelsea would have won titles under any good manager.
times have changed...if you want to be at the top you 'buy'... the difference is Manchester United have earned the money to buy who they want.
I agree with the notion. The best teams, such as us, Barca, and even the successful Bayern team of a few years ago, did have a core of youth players in it.
However you're talking about the best teams in the last 3 decades. And it's only once a decade if not less that you're going to get such a great youth crop.
And it's not like it's easy to do. You kind of fall into a situation like that. Yes you can scout and develop the best youth players but it doesn't just happen easily. Else it wouldn't be so rare.
So whilst you're right, you will rarely make it happen. The best alternative is to buy quality players to build a team. So until you find that amazing youth crop what alternative do you have?
However you're talking about the best teams in the last 3 decades. And it's only once a decade if not less that you're going to get such a great youth crop.
And it's not like it's easy to do. You kind of fall into a situation like that. Yes you can scout and develop the best youth players but it doesn't just happen easily. Else it wouldn't be so rare.
So whilst you're right, you will rarely make it happen. The best alternative is to buy quality players to build a team. So until you find that amazing youth crop what alternative do you have?
Very aptly put. I'd say 7 of the 11 that finished the game yesterday are sand.
I agree perfectly with the reasoning but not quite with the conclusion. Mainly because first, how do we know the quality of the youth crop is any good from our position as fans? We are simply not qualified enough, nor do we have enough data to know something like that. Second, you make it sound like it's something that just happens out of thin air whereas it is something that requires a lot of work, strategy and most importantly patience. Patience to let those players fail and succeed. Of course they might just keep failing but that is why managers and coaches are paid so much money, it is to make those predictions. One thing I would accept though is that we are disadvantaged on the patience front. Whereas Bayern and Barcelona could afford to wait because they would still guarantee CL football every regardless, we do not have that luxury. It is a balancing act at the end of the day and I feel big clubs have a duty to aim that high and work towards achieving it. Chelsea, Man City and PSG have an excuse, they did not have the status or the name to be able to afford to build, I don't begrudge them, in fact I think they are perfectly justified. Real Madrid are a brand name club, Perez made it clear he is more interested in the status than actual trophies. Good luck to them but that is not how I want Man United to be. We on the other hand have no excuse to pursue the easy low risk/low reward route. We can't risk too much that we drop out of the CL, but it would be bland to build a "normal" great team over night just because we can't wait a bit for a proper great one.
The notion is completely wrong, because 'built' and 'bought' aren't antagonistic. Even if you buy you will need to build and you can't build without apt material, yes it his financially best to produce your own material but if you don't have it, you will need to buy.
I was going to write a lot of what has already been put forward.
Injury proneness holding us back, need to be solid before introducing youth etc.
However, I decided to throw another idea forward. More of a suggestion based on taking an interest in our youth teams, ever since the days of needing those special tokens for cup matches.
Our youth players are very good at their level, and the development they get is some of the best. Technically they are sound and some have that inner spark that excites you about their potential.
However, to replicate the great academy teams of 92 or Barca, they need to fully understand each other's games, in a particular system, week in week out.
We can't do that in our current setup.
Why?
Because the level they play at is not good enough.
We have to send our brightest out on loan to stretch them further. They play in a different system, with unfamiliar players, and while it is beneficial to the individual to a point, it affects their team chemistry (sorry, a bit fifa) negatively.
The other downside is that those who don't get loans are left in a weakened, unbalanced team, struggling to function.
I would propose that we would be better served if our under 21 side played in the lower leagues. The may even end up in the higher ones.. Keep the under 18 team playing with the same age group.
This way we develop the team with more chance of breaking through to our first team, rather than develop individuals for league1, championship, or lower premium clubs.
Sorry for the long post.
Injury proneness holding us back, need to be solid before introducing youth etc.
However, I decided to throw another idea forward. More of a suggestion based on taking an interest in our youth teams, ever since the days of needing those special tokens for cup matches.
Our youth players are very good at their level, and the development they get is some of the best. Technically they are sound and some have that inner spark that excites you about their potential.
However, to replicate the great academy teams of 92 or Barca, they need to fully understand each other's games, in a particular system, week in week out.
We can't do that in our current setup.
Why?
Because the level they play at is not good enough.
We have to send our brightest out on loan to stretch them further. They play in a different system, with unfamiliar players, and while it is beneficial to the individual to a point, it affects their team chemistry (sorry, a bit fifa) negatively.
The other downside is that those who don't get loans are left in a weakened, unbalanced team, struggling to function.
I would propose that we would be better served if our under 21 side played in the lower leagues. The may even end up in the higher ones.. Keep the under 18 team playing with the same age group.
This way we develop the team with more chance of breaking through to our first team, rather than develop individuals for league1, championship, or lower premium clubs.
Sorry for the long post.
Maybe I came across wrong. I'm not saying it happens out of thin air. But, I would 100% say that to have 5 world class youth players if not more in the same crop at similar ages is extremely rare and, to a certain extent, luck.
You can do all the right things. Bring in the best youth. Build a rapport within them. Develop them. And give them all the opportunity to flourish. But, 99% of the time, not every single one of them will go on to maximise potential. It's extremely rare to get a big core of youth of top quality in one go. Regardless of whether you do everything right.
It's on that basis I'm saying that you cannot bank on building a team solely like that.
What should be done is continue developing youth every year and those who succeed you keep and those who don't you move on. And supplement your team with quality.
The big problem right now is that we don't have that crop right now and also, we are in need of a fast recovery. Which is what you correctly alluded to. But I don't think that means we shouldn't build a team through buying and just wait until we do have that core. The next best alternative is to buy. That doesn't mean you give up on youth. You continue developing continue providing opportunities. And when the balance swings and we have that great crop, you buy less. I don't think you just focus on youth and stop buying. Really the amount you buy is a factor of how much quality you have from your youth. The more you have the less you buy. It'd be incorrect to not buy and take a core of youth that don't have that quality.
VDS - De Gea
Brown - Rafael
Rio - Smalling
Vidic - Jones
Evra - Shaw
Carrick - ?
Scholes - Anderson
Hargreaves - ?
Ronaldo - Valencia
Tevez - Owen/berbatov
Rooney - Rooney
Is it fair to say the only equivalent quality replacement for that 2008 team has been De Gea?
Brown - Rafael
Rio - Smalling
Vidic - Jones
Evra - Shaw
Carrick - ?
Scholes - Anderson
Hargreaves - ?
Ronaldo - Valencia
Tevez - Owen/berbatov
Rooney - Rooney
Is it fair to say the only equivalent quality replacement for that 2008 team has been De Gea?
Fair enough! I honestly think that everyone has the same opinion in principle. The disagreement about to which extent are willing to risk. I may have been unclear in the previous post because I am not talking necessarily about academy players but about the general tendency to write off individuals and a team. I am about talking about our current team and I just do not understand how can a final judgment be made about their quality. Our team on paper was worse in 2006 for example especially after selling Van Nistelrooy and anyone who tells you they could predict their level of development is either lying or was in the minority. My point is that it surprises me how certain fans can be of the level of development or potential of a team. It would not surprise me if this team goes on to win the title next season just as it wouldn't if they drop out of the top 4 simply because I do not have the necessary skills or data to judge. Generally speaking, I feel fans give players a fixed grade if you will, labels like world class or average or whatever whereas modern football is moving more and more toward a direction of the whole team complimenting each other. A player can look a perfect fit in one system, league, position and so on and a totally average footballer in another set of conditions. In our case, it could easily be that the other factors have not clicked yet and it is only a matter of time and maybe 1 signing to tie everything together. Just as easily it could be that we need a complete overhaul and that this team is incapable of ever reaching the right level.
The one assumption I would say is a safe one is that every great team had two things; continuity and a stand out game changer. Those are the only two factors that can be seen consistently in every top team in the recent past. That is why whereas I am not necessarily keen on signing players left and right, I am definitely keen on signing a true game changer. By that I do not mean so called world class players, I mean guys who can pick up the ball and score on their own; Messi, Suarez, Ronaldo, Robben, Hazard and maybe maybe Bale as he shown he can do it at times. Other factors such as money, academy products big name signings and so on are arbitrary and are hit and miss which is why I prefer to leave those judgments to be made by the people in charge.
Personally, I think the phrase is somewhat misinterpreted.
You can still build a team through buying players. The way I see it, is that you build a team over time in order to achieve greatness. Buying many players in a short space of time and rushing the growth a side can be a detriment as much as it can be beneficial. Have a look at Spurs. Have a look at Liverpool. Both spent massive amounts of money from selling star players and tried to buy players all around the squad. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I think we'd be in agreement that spending a large chunk on replacing the loss, and then the rest on a couple more improvements would probably have benefitted them more.
To relate it to our team, I think you could easily make a case for making 6/7 more changes to our side this window. What benefit would this have though really? We've spent a year trying to build a philosophy and give the squad direction, and then replace most of it and we're back to square one.
For me, I'd only make 3 more signings this window; CB, RB, CM. Would these improve us? Yes. Would we do better than last year? Yes. Would we win the league/CL? I'd say it'd be unlikely but we'd make steps towards it. Why does everything have to be won next year? We could meet those objectives in 2/3 years whilst maintaining the long term stability of the club and putting ourselves in a better position to sustain success.
Outside the positions I mentioned we need to replace Carrick and we need to update our strike force. Will our current options significantly weaken us though? I'd say we can improve with these players in the side. Then we make 2/3 more signings to replace them. We blood in youth as and when they're ready into a stable system with established players to nurture them.
To build a side, you need sizeable progressions throughout the whole club. Have a philosophy, be sensible in the market and introduce youth when they're ready. Filling a team with academy players isn't going to win you titles if they aren't good enough but it seems like the right thing to do. Buying half a squad every window isn't going to sustain the long term stability of the club. Barcelona have a mixture of buying sensibly and implementing the best of their youth system alongside established players, that's how they've built what they have.
You can still build a team through buying players. The way I see it, is that you build a team over time in order to achieve greatness. Buying many players in a short space of time and rushing the growth a side can be a detriment as much as it can be beneficial. Have a look at Spurs. Have a look at Liverpool. Both spent massive amounts of money from selling star players and tried to buy players all around the squad. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I think we'd be in agreement that spending a large chunk on replacing the loss, and then the rest on a couple more improvements would probably have benefitted them more.
To relate it to our team, I think you could easily make a case for making 6/7 more changes to our side this window. What benefit would this have though really? We've spent a year trying to build a philosophy and give the squad direction, and then replace most of it and we're back to square one.
For me, I'd only make 3 more signings this window; CB, RB, CM. Would these improve us? Yes. Would we do better than last year? Yes. Would we win the league/CL? I'd say it'd be unlikely but we'd make steps towards it. Why does everything have to be won next year? We could meet those objectives in 2/3 years whilst maintaining the long term stability of the club and putting ourselves in a better position to sustain success.
Outside the positions I mentioned we need to replace Carrick and we need to update our strike force. Will our current options significantly weaken us though? I'd say we can improve with these players in the side. Then we make 2/3 more signings to replace them. We blood in youth as and when they're ready into a stable system with established players to nurture them.
To build a side, you need sizeable progressions throughout the whole club. Have a philosophy, be sensible in the market and introduce youth when they're ready. Filling a team with academy players isn't going to win you titles if they aren't good enough but it seems like the right thing to do. Buying half a squad every window isn't going to sustain the long term stability of the club. Barcelona have a mixture of buying sensibly and implementing the best of their youth system alongside established players, that's how they've built what they have.
You have to spend big in order to win titles and compete. There are very few exceptions in the last decade or more in every big European league. Same goes for smaller ones too.
Barcelona have beaten Real. Barcelona spend a lot of money.