I am not sure what your point is. I already wrote a post about why I think this is an extreme over simplification. The principle itself is not wrong per se but it is extremely vague. What kind of spending? Over how long? How are other aspects of the club working like continuity, stability, philosophy and so on. Real Madrid are a prime example of what is good about spending but also what is less good when spending is your main approach; a competitive team that is not quite there. Barcelona do spend indeed but it is on top of other things going for them like the continuity of their squad and the philosophy of the team that has been built and developed over many years. My problem with your post is that you were just lumping every team together as though they all have the exact the same approach and have all reached the exact same return.
Great Teams are Built, not Bought.
- Thread starter Walrus
- Start date
Spot on, this is the point I was trying to make here. Its not about having X amount of academy players or spending Y amount on players - it is about continuity.
The class of 92 is underrated in terms of its influence.
The backbone of that team, and the style of play that they play are ingrained and the effect lasted more than 10 years. Having Keane / Scholes / Giggs / Beckham pretty much ironed out how we play even long after their gone, and so will barcelona's golden generation tiki taka.
Without the class of 92, we'll be chopping changing and buying players like any other club. Fergie imho got the benefit of the class of 92, allowing him to develop youth that are not so good but does the job of plugging the gaps with utility player and workhorses that is good enough to rotate while having 1-2 stars in the game. O'shea / Wes Brown / Welbeck are an example, they're not good enough to be the first teamer of Manchester United, but when we have Ronaldo / Rooney to do the damage, their role becomes important, they fill out the gaps at various places, and it allows us to retain our warchest for when it matters.
The backbone of that team, and the style of play that they play are ingrained and the effect lasted more than 10 years. Having Keane / Scholes / Giggs / Beckham pretty much ironed out how we play even long after their gone, and so will barcelona's golden generation tiki taka.
Without the class of 92, we'll be chopping changing and buying players like any other club. Fergie imho got the benefit of the class of 92, allowing him to develop youth that are not so good but does the job of plugging the gaps with utility player and workhorses that is good enough to rotate while having 1-2 stars in the game. O'shea / Wes Brown / Welbeck are an example, they're not good enough to be the first teamer of Manchester United, but when we have Ronaldo / Rooney to do the damage, their role becomes important, they fill out the gaps at various places, and it allows us to retain our warchest for when it matters.
Great teams are built AND bought, a combination of both. One without the other is not enough these days. You live in the past if you think otherwise.
But they bought well and thus have not had to keep changing players. We have had some underwhelming purchases the last few years which is coming to bite us in the arse now. No one is saying to get rid of Herrera, Mata, Blind, Di Maria, DDG. All of these players have been bought but most know that we can build a team around them. People are looking for better options in positions where we are really not that good. A CB, a RB, a midfielder to take over Carrick's mantle and a striker if Falcao leaves and if RvP is not considered good enough. Once these acquisitions are made and the right players are brought in, then I doubt people will keep wanting new toys every summer.
Barca have also bought some duds and have had to replace them sooner rather than later when they knew it is not working. So have every club. The reason Barca did not have to make whole sale changes was because of some fantastic talent which came through their academy almost simultaneously. Something which was common to United with the class of '92.
You don't stick with poor players and hope that by continuously playing them they will become better and of the standard required. If that were the case, might as well bring back Bebe and let him play continuously in the hope that a team which plays together over the years will automatically become great.
So we basically wait till Carrick drops dead before we think about replacing him? That is not the model which Fergie followed. Just two experienced strikers, one of whom has been played all over the pitch the last two seasons and the other is on the wane and injury prone. You think that would be enough to cover for 4 competitions? Fellaini as a striker cover. Good lord! And then we cry hoarse when we play shit and lump the ball to him. He has no business playing as a striker/#10 if we want to compete with the likes of Madrid/Barca/Bayern in a CL semi/final.
Wingers, I can agree esp with Januzaj in the mix but we definitely need a CB as well. McNair is no where near ready (I feel he is not good enough for us but that is for another thread) and Jones is terribly injury prone.
I get what you're saying but you have to buy to build. It's not lord of the rings, you don't just assemble an army of orcs from the turf at old Trafford ffs.
These 'poor players' have more or less matched any other team in the league. We outplayed Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, thrashed City 4-2, and when things were going well this season, we looked unstoppable and were playing excellent football as well.
So the players have clearly shown they have the potential to play as well as anyone else. Yet they are labelled as 'poor' and need replacing apparently, and that is the part that I find ludicrous. We have seen enough potential and enough good points this season that is it really so unbelievably unlikely that with more time working together and learning LVG's system, combined with a couple of quality additions like Depay, that we cant challenge for the league and CL?
That is the point of this thread, but of course there are so many people who refuse to see past "You wont with the league with player x starting", even though those very players have produced some excellent football over this season.
Carrick can comfortably play for another couple of years. His style of play is not workrate intensive, nor is he particularly pacey. In that time, I fully expect Blind to develop his game and improve as a player. Furthermore, we have Fosu-Mensah doing fantastically well in the academy, and I would be disappointed if he hadnt made his first team debut within a couple of years - with DM being perhaps the most likely position that he ends up playing.
Its funny that you mention Fergie, because perhaps his greatest failing in over the last 5-10 years was overreliance on ageing players such as Giggs and Scholes, and failing to adequately replace them.
Saying things like "McNair is nowhere near ready" is absurd. Personally, I dont want to see us turn into Chelsea, playing dour, defensive football and only fielding a youth player in the penultimate game of the season when the league is already won.
We have seen the damage it has done to both Smalling and Jones by having them both constantly played out of position and not being given gametime in previous years. McNair should be more than capable of being the #4 CB for us. Or are these youngsters just going to turn into readymade worldies overnight from sitting on the bench? (Same applies for Januzaj)
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I agree actually. I don't know why people think buying 6 first team players two years in a row is a good idea. We're obviously short of depth and signings will be made, I don't think as much money will, or needs to be spent as last summer
And yeah I agree with the post above, we haven't got nearly as much deadwood as before. Bebe, Obertan, Nani, Cleverley, Ando, Fletcher, Buttner have gone. Welbeck and Hernandez who were the another two that a lot of people wanted gone, have also gone.
It's only really Evans, Rafael, Valencia and Young left of that bunch and Young has been one of our best players this season. Evans and Rafael will probably go. Valencia divides opinion heavily. some people don't even want to buy a new right back and are fine with him starting. Most - and I'm in this camp - seem to think he's fine as a backup and then some don't even he's good enough for that. Either way, I only want 2 or 3 players to leave, everyone else has shown enough to warrant a place
And yeah I agree with the post above, we haven't got nearly as much deadwood as before. Bebe, Obertan, Nani, Cleverley, Ando, Fletcher, Buttner have gone. Welbeck and Hernandez who were the another two that a lot of people wanted gone, have also gone.
It's only really Evans, Rafael, Valencia and Young left of that bunch and Young has been one of our best players this season. Evans and Rafael will probably go. Valencia divides opinion heavily. some people don't even want to buy a new right back and are fine with him starting. Most - and I'm in this camp - seem to think he's fine as a backup and then some don't even he's good enough for that. Either way, I only want 2 or 3 players to leave, everyone else has shown enough to warrant a place
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So basically coming 4th is matching any other team in the league? Also, we outplayed Chelsea but got hammered by Everton the very next match. You would think that any person would agree that Young is far far below the likes of Robben/Ribery/Bale/Ronaldo/Neymar/Suarez/Hazard... But just because he played well a few matches, he should be a permanent fixture in our starting 11 the coming season? What are his goals+assists figures over the last 2 seasons again?
Valencia has been average at best in the RB position and our CBs are so injury prone that we have hardly had any sort of continuity there. Getting used to LVG's system suddenly won't make these players less injury prone.
Also, how many goals have our strikers scored, all combined? Check these stats and you will understand why we need a new striker. Using Fellaini as a cover for the striker position will not improve us one bit. We need a striker in his prime who we can depend on to score goals and stay injury free. None of our current set of strikers have shown both of those traits together together.
One injury to Carrick and we have been run over by the likes of Everton/Palace in midfield. Yet you think it is a smart idea to not try and get someone who can be his understudy and can be groomed to replace him in the long run?
Now you are just building a strawman. I have never claimed that we shouldnt be signing anyone. Nor have I ever said that Young is on a par with those players you mentioned, or that he should be a permanent fixture in our starting XI.
As I said, the players that we have, have shown over this season that we are capable of matching any other team in the league. Obviously we did not win the league, but this isnt Football Manager where you just replace half of the squad and get instant success.
We came into this season with a lot of new faces, with a team lacking any sort of unified playing style. We had a bad start, which given what I have just said, would be expected. As the season has progressed however, and the players have settled into LVG's system, we have seen enormous improvements in terms of our style of play. We have gone on great winning runs this season, and have outplayed the top teams in the league comfortably. To me, that says that wholesale changes are not what is needed. What is needed, is giving the players time to further understand LVG's system, to have more gametime playing with the same players so that they understand each other's games better, and a couple of quality additions in key positions to give us that extra cutting edge.
Since you (and others) dont seem to like the Barcelona example I originally gave, here are some others for context;
Liverpool - Rodgers arrived 3 seasons ago. In their first season they were fairly unspectacular, but grew stronger as the season went on (much like we did this season). In Rodgers' second season (13/14) they nearly won the league, despite having on paper a worse squad than United and several other teams. Taking the United-specs off for a minute, they played some absolutely scintillating football. Obviously they were helped by Suarez's exploits, but even without him they looked phenomenal. This was with the group of players that Rodgers had been working with for over a year, and imprinted his vision and philosophy on.
Then we come to this season - they did what people want us to do, and bought 5/6 players who were expected to go more or less straight into the first team. What has happened? They have failed to replicate last seasons form by a long shot.
Spurs - Another example of what happens when you try to sign half a team over one summer. They sold Bale and bought god knows how many players, and look a lot worse for it.
United under Ferguson - In Fergie's last year at the club, we won the league comfortably despite it being arguably one of Ferguson's weakest squads. Why? How could this be? Ferguson himself was of course a factor, and people talked about him "getting the most out of the players he had" - which ties in to my point. He had a group of players that he had been working with for years, who understood his system and how the team was meant to play. They understood their roles and duties. Result? We won the league.
If we're sticking with 4-3-3 then I think Wilson, RVP and Rooney is fine for just one position. Depay and Januzaj could probably play there too if things got THAT bad. We definitely do need a new CB though. McNair will probably still get some games as 5th choice, which is ideal.
Young and Fellaini have been one of the more permanent fixtures of our squad and many here want an upgrade on them while you said they should be enough for us in the long run. So I am pointing out that we need to replace them with better quality players. For that we need to buy. Maybe Depay is Young's replacement and that ties in with the fact that we needed to strengthen the wings.
Carrick is again a huge player for us and we need someone who can actually replace him properly. Blind has done OK so far in the DM role but we need someone better. You mentioned Fellaini as an option in midfield while he has hardly played as a proper midfielder for us during LVG's time here. Most of the times that he did play well was as a #10 who we used as a battering ram. Forgive me but I really don't want to see United employ long balls to Fellaini as a plan A this coming season and thus don't want him as a choice for #10 role except for when we are chasing games and need a plan B where he can be put up top.
Again, what do you mean by wholesale changes? If we buy 4 top players, would that mean wholesale changes? We need a RB, a CB and another midfielder of first team quality at the least even if we don't consider the striker position as a critical one to buy. That would still mean 4 first team players including Depay. I feel that is what we need and if that is seen as major changes, then so be it. We need this overhaul so that we don't have to go into every season with some of the mediocrity in these positions that we have seen.
That Liverpool side had an absolutely brilliant Suarez firing on all cylinders and he formed an incredible partnership with yet another Rodgers buy, Sturridge. Add this to the fact that they solely concentrated on the league and had no other competitions to worry about. Much like us this season and they were shown up without Suarez big time.
Spurs bought a lot of mediocrity with Bale's money. That is why they have struggled. Not because they bought so many players.
And Fergie's last few years in the CL clearly showed how far behind we had fallen compared to teams like Barca/Madrid/Bayern. If we are to reach their levels, we need to improve a lot of our personnel. Seeing Bale/Isco/Ronaldo/Rodriguez in Madrid's wide areas and seeing Young as a permanent fixture in our starting 11 should be enough for anyone to realize how much catching up we have to do.
I agree with this, or certainly the last para. Refreshing is important, buying is important, but if you do ignore youth, it costs an inordinate amount to buy in the players and there's huge risk they'll never gel. 50% of all transfers fail. Continuity is important.
Don't forget that we have Henriquez, who has been scoring goals for fun in Croatia, to come back. Might be better to put Wilson out on loan and use Henriquez as striker back up (or a starter if he turns out to be good enough.
Come to think of it, we've also got Varela coming back from RM Castilla - might be a solution to the RB problem. Although he is in the SAF mould of small full backs which is not ideal - better might be a tall right back/centre back (more like Ivanovic).
United needed a massive rebuild, that is why we are seeing so many players coming and going. We will not see 5-6 players coming in every season once the team is back to the standard it should be at. Class of 92 or Barcelona is not going to happen very often, if at all. Reason is money, there is too much at stake now for managers to consider bringing in so many young players through at the same time, and that is if they are even good enough. I would be happy if we can manage to bring through 1 youth player a season, no need to bring in players who are not good enough just for the sake of promoting from the youth team.
In saying all that, Chelsea have some fantastic young players in their youth teams and reserve, let's see if Moureen starts giving them a chance.
In saying all that, Chelsea have some fantastic young players in their youth teams and reserve, let's see if Moureen starts giving them a chance.
The sentiment is noble but the reality is quite different. The OP isn't suggesting we don't spend money on players, though. The overall point seems to be that we shouldn't throw money at the wall in the hope that it sticks, which is somewhat true.
However, what we have seen since that dismal summer under Moyes, as well as Ferguson's prior inability to successfully rejuvenate the squad, is a club that have put itself into a the mire and getting out has cost an arm and a leg.
Observers are often quick to criticise the club for the money it has spent, but I maintain that every signing we made last summer was sensible and appropriate given the gaps in the squad. The fees were high, but that was the price we had to pay for finishing outside of the top four. This summer, I expect more heavy spending. But, again, I think those signings will be necessary in our quest to get back to the top.
After this transfer window you would expect our transfer business to return to some kind of normality. This is when the core players in the first team can work together to make for a successful side. We need the players first. To steal a phrase from the first page, we aren't building anything with sand on top of sand.
However, what we have seen since that dismal summer under Moyes, as well as Ferguson's prior inability to successfully rejuvenate the squad, is a club that have put itself into a the mire and getting out has cost an arm and a leg.
Observers are often quick to criticise the club for the money it has spent, but I maintain that every signing we made last summer was sensible and appropriate given the gaps in the squad. The fees were high, but that was the price we had to pay for finishing outside of the top four. This summer, I expect more heavy spending. But, again, I think those signings will be necessary in our quest to get back to the top.
After this transfer window you would expect our transfer business to return to some kind of normality. This is when the core players in the first team can work together to make for a successful side. We need the players first. To steal a phrase from the first page, we aren't building anything with sand on top of sand.
I haven't read the thread but I think OP's view is too clouded by English examples. The reason why English teams don't get a lot out of their money is because their appears to be bad and they seem to be behind in terms of tactics.
When you are at the very top of European football it's obvious that you don't need a lot of transfers since your team is working well and your players are obviously good, so you mostly just replace the ones who are getting too old. Still Barca have been spending obscene amounts on Suarez and Neymar for their offense, brought in Rakitic for midfield, Varmaelen and Mathieu for their defence, ter Stegen/Bravo for ther GK position and from the looks of it would've liked to replace D. Alves as well, that's about half their first XI in two years, despite still being quite successful.
And don't forget PSG who bought together a respectable team over 2 or 3 seasons.
Mourinho is also someone who seems to be able to simply buy a certain amount of success.
If you're a true top club you look at the squad and you either have the individual quality or you don't if you have it fine, where you don't have it you buy. Thus it's only natural for a club like United to keep spending in areas where there appears to be a lack of quality.
When you are at the very top of European football it's obvious that you don't need a lot of transfers since your team is working well and your players are obviously good, so you mostly just replace the ones who are getting too old. Still Barca have been spending obscene amounts on Suarez and Neymar for their offense, brought in Rakitic for midfield, Varmaelen and Mathieu for their defence, ter Stegen/Bravo for ther GK position and from the looks of it would've liked to replace D. Alves as well, that's about half their first XI in two years, despite still being quite successful.
And don't forget PSG who bought together a respectable team over 2 or 3 seasons.
Mourinho is also someone who seems to be able to simply buy a certain amount of success.
If you're a true top club you look at the squad and you either have the individual quality or you don't if you have it fine, where you don't have it you buy. Thus it's only natural for a club like United to keep spending in areas where there appears to be a lack of quality.
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VDS - Bought
Brown - Acadamy
Vidic - Bought
Rio - Bought
Evra - Bought
Scholes - Academy
Carrick - Bought
Hargreaves - Bought
Ronaldo - Bought
Rooney - Bought
Tevez - Bought
Unless I've missed the point
Brown - Acadamy
Vidic - Bought
Rio - Bought
Evra - Bought
Scholes - Academy
Carrick - Bought
Hargreaves - Bought
Ronaldo - Bought
Rooney - Bought
Tevez - Bought
Unless I've missed the point
Real would say otherwise... Or quite frankly any team that has won trophies consistently. So yeah I disagree wholeheartedly. Nice little thought though.
Our utterly superb and great team of 2004-2005 we had, that was was most bought but it wasnt buying superstars of the time, Jose gelled together everything superbly.you cant bring through an entire team anymore parts of it have to be bought. But buying huge superstars for record amounts rarely works out. Shevva, Torres, ADM were all records and either flops or underperformed.
You and your ongoing claim how that Chelsea team was utterly superb. Only you with your whole delusion could call a team utterly superb which neither managed to win the CL nor even the League & FA Cup double (which is not impossible you know, Ancelotti won it in his first season, Wenger won it twice, SAF 3 times), but keep on convincing yourself how that team was the best ever.
It was a superb team that there is no debate, we got 95 points lost once and conceded 15 goals all season, anyone who doesnt think it was a superb team is insane. I dont mind debating if it was the best in the PL era but there is no debate about the former. Just because it didnt win this or that doesnt change that after all Uniteds great team of 07-09 never won a fa cup double either.
As I said only you could call it like that, it was a very good team, nothing more. But someone should give you a medal for your extraordinary work for praising that team as if it had won a treble!
No not only I would call it that. Theres been an awful lot of Chelsea bashing and underrating in the last few weeks.
Would you not call the 07-09 United team superb then(i would)? Because that team never won the double either, and the CL win hardly makes the difference as the difference was a penalty miss.
It still won the CL and went unbeaten in the whole CL campaign. And the penalty win in the CL (a win is a win after all, or does that only count when Jose marginally wins something) if you don't see it as deserved can easily be replaced by the horror refreeing show and bad luck we had in the FA Cup game against Portsmouth. No matter which way you want to paint it you can't argue against the facts/trophies (and for Chelsea fans after all as we have learnt here trophies are the only thing which count, no?).
I dont see why its a big argument really, the margins are so fine, we were a penalty away from it, you won it, that or an unbeaten CL campaign does not make the difference. We won the league cup and PL double, retained the league( which Arsenal have never done), and beat 2 of the best teams in europe (Barca and Bayern) in 2005. It was a superb team and thats that, so was the United team of 2007-2009, its really not complicated.
Arsenal 2003-4 Chelsea 04-06 United 07-09 and United 99 were the superb teams of the PL era, debate all you will about the best but dont talk nonsense about the 04-06 team being overrated.
Stop crying and you can print it on your wall and repeat it here endlessly if this makes you feel good, but the facts won't change. Noone outside of Chelsea when talking about past great teams mentions that Chelsea team, otherwise a lot of other teams across Europe should be mentioned, too.Ok, but um if you check here, people do actually mention it, maybe you dont however.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-best-team-in-premier-league-history.397679/
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=316176.0
In fact even the deluded bunch at RAWK are less deluded than you!
In fact almost all at rawk there choose Joses 04-06 team as the best ever let alone just a superb team.
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I do think that you need some players who have a special place for the club in their hearts.
Look at Lahm and Schweinsteiger, Scholes and Giggs or Iniesta and Xavi.
Some players take the best job and always look for their personal best. And that is fine. Most of us are similar in our daily jobs.
But every great team needs a heart, a soul, players who push on in the bad days, stay on the ship.
So yes, the truly great teams are built with bought players and such who grew up in the club imo.
Look at Lahm and Schweinsteiger, Scholes and Giggs or Iniesta and Xavi.
Some players take the best job and always look for their personal best. And that is fine. Most of us are similar in our daily jobs.
But every great team needs a heart, a soul, players who push on in the bad days, stay on the ship.
So yes, the truly great teams are built with bought players and such who grew up in the club imo.
Even @Mogget was on the case!
Not really, only if you talk about PL teams, but if you talk about great past teams in general ppl think about many teams who have won the treble, hell even our 2006/07 team which still needed to improve in Europe gets talked more than that Chelsea team because of our exciting football that season, Ronaldo/Rooney and the 7-1 against Roma. Your Chelsea team of that season was impressive in the PL the same way Bayern were last year in the Bundesliga. But I doubt you would class last year's Bayern a great team, same applies to Chelsea.
See my above post, enough said.
Contrary to popular belief we did not win a poor league in that period. Arsenal were the invincibles still in the same season Liverpool the champions of Europe and United coming into their dominance in the second half of the 05/06 season. Its very fine margins and I hate to talk in ifs and buts but if you are going to make out fine margins determine great from very good then they matter, we were unlucky in the semi final of the CL that season. If you are defining superb teams as ones that win the treble, or are the absolute top opf all time (like Barcas 09-12 team, then only the United 99 team would get a mention and neither Arsenals invincibles nor Uniteds 07-09 team would get a look in. My judgements arent so harsh. I would say Uniteds 07-09 and Arsenals teams were both superb as well.
Wow, just checked the poll and your team only got 12,9%. I already said earlier it was a very good team, but only because it had a dominant year in the PL doesn't make the team "utterly superb" which was my whole point. Because an utterly superb team wins more than just the PL. Small margins? Well yes, all aspects contribute to a team being utterly superb. Small details after all are the difference between a very good and a great team.Yeah Just me @united_99
As others have said, it isn't about having a certain amount of academy players, it is about continuity and development of players within a particular system. The current players have shown this seasons that they can go toe to toe with anyone else in the league, and with a couple of quality additions/more time to fully master LVGs system, things should only improve. It would only be detrimental to go out this summer and replace every player who is suddenly deemed 'not good enough' by the folks on here (even though two of those players have been two of our better outfield players this season).
Nice. Atletico Madrid is a surprise! Liverpool