Great Teams are Built, not Bought.

[Walrus]

Right, but I'm not saying we need to buy loads of players either. We do need to buy some great ones, though. We should be doing what Real and Barca do, spend big to get the best. We're supposed to be the biggest club in the world, aren't we?

Unfortunately due to under investment, poor academy output, and poor recent spending, we DO currently need to spend big and buy big to get back where we want to be. It's unavoidable. When we get there, that's when we can start doing what you're suggesting. But doing it right now would be silly.

With regard to the bolded part, a lot of people are saying that, and it is them who this thread is primarily aimed at. I agree with you regarding transfer policy - I would like to see 2-3 top class players brought in this summer (including Depay).

I should have perhaps been more explicit in the original post, that it is the notion that we need to go out and buy 6+ players and change half of the first team squad that I disagree with strongly. I think that the most important thing right now for us is to have some continuity, get the same players playing week in, week out for two or three years and start to develop a more advanced understanding of each other, as well as of LVGs desired system.

 

[hbgreg]

If you're not capable of building a beautiful house you buy one.

 

[jem]

With regard to the bolded part, a lot of people are saying that, and it is them who this thread is primarily aimed at. I agree with you regarding transfer policy - I would like to see 2-3 top class players brought in this summer (including Depay).

I should have perhaps been more explicit in the original post, that it is the notion that we need to go out and buy 6+ players and change half of the first team squad that I disagree with strongly. I think that the most important thing right now for us is to have some continuity, get the same players playing week in, week out for two or three years and start to develop a more advanced understanding of each other, as well as of LVGs desired system.

I agree with this, and it's why part of me would love to see Jones and Smalling given the chance to form a lasting partnership that could be a foundation of our future success, rather than spend silly money on Hummels. It's the same with Mata and Herrera, who have shown signs of forming a great understanding, despite underwhelming at times.

The areas where we really need to spend, in my opinion, are at RB - where Valencia has no business being a starter, midfield - where Carrick is aging, and possibly at striker - where we have 3 strikers (including Falcao,) who appear to be on a downward trajectory. I'd be happy with Coleman, Schneiderlin and Benteke as candidates to fill those positions.

 

[jb8521]

Im not sure why people still use Barcelona as the shining example of a club who build from their academy as if they are bringing through a constant stream of academy players into their first team every season. Of course they've had huge success from it in the past 15 years but the last player to come through it and really establish himself as a first team regular starter was Busquets who is 27 now. The Barcelona team which started the game the other night cost around £220million. Im all for building a young team through the use of the academy but you also need to spend money where there is obvious deficiencies or as is the case at the moment some of the better prospects in the academy are still a bit too young to step up.

 

[RedStarUnited]

No patience these days im afraid. Luis enrique was close to be sacked in January, yet now he could win a treble.

 

[psychdelicblues]

Don't know. City and Chelsea have purchased a few titles. United are going same route.

They are not even remotely great teams.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Im not sure why people still use Barcelona as the shining example of a club who build from their academy as if they are bringing through a constant stream of academy players into their first team every season. Of course they've had huge success from it in the past 15 years but the last player to come through it and really establish himself as a first team regular starter was Busquets who is 27 now. The Barcelona team which started the game the other night cost around £220million. Im all for building a young team through the use of the academy but you also need to spend money where there is obvious deficiencies or as is the case at the moment some of the better prospects in the academy are still a bit too young to step up.

That 220 million is largely offset by 2 players, Suarez and Neymar. They cost about 150m combined!

 

[TheSamulator]

Shit lads, i'll get all my Lego out.

 

[Lynk]

Yeah, use Barcelona as an example why don't you.

Neymar - 90 million euros
Suarez - 60 Million euros

 

[Skills]

You build them by buying the players over a couple of seasons. We've already done chunk of the work last summer.

 

[Walrus]

Yeah, use Barcelona as an example why don't you.

Neymar - 90 million euros
Suarez - 60 Million euros

Please read the post a bit more carefully before making silly comments. As I have repeatedly said, I am talking more about volume of players than simple gross spend. I would be delighted if we spent that sort of money on two players this summer and it was the only business we did (of course with Depay already confirmed, that is unlikely).

Barcelona remain a valid example, because the core of their team has/had been together since a young age. A great team doesnt have to have played together in the club academy, but it needs a period of several years to properly gel and form an understanding and distinct style of play. If that happens straight from the academy then great, if not, then it isnt a big issue either, but people need to learn to have a little bit of patience, rather than expecting us to turn into a CL winning team overnight as long as we spunk enough money on enough players.
Barcelona had a consistent group of players that formed the core of their team for basically the last decade. They supplemented this with high quality additions in key positions. That is nothing like doing what we did last summer, and what people want us to do again this summer, in replacing half of the first team.

 

[legball]

Surely to build, you need to buy materials? It's not one or the other, the two go hand in hand. I don't believe we/anyone needs to spend X amount of money to be great, however, you need to have players of the high quality, so, if you can't produce them you buy them. The right players don't have to be super expensive.

 

[jb8521]

That 220 million is largely offset by 2 players, Suarez and Neymar. They cost about 150m combined!

8 of the players were still bought though

 

[Pentagruel]

I certainly agree with the OP that continuity is absolutely key to building a great team. Barcelona wouldn't be the same team if they hadn't worked together for such a long time. So in that sense, it needs to be built. You probably do however, need to buy a number of key talents as well. No club can produce so many incredible talents in one generation to field an entire squad from their own youth, outside of a few aberrations throughout history.

So when applied to United, I agree that overhauling the whole squad every year is not the way to go. Intelligent investment is required on a couple of key pieces that fit the future vision of the team. But hey, we knew that already. It's just easier said then done.

 

[Nighteyes]

All I want is to see us play good football again. We all love to laugh at Liverpool but I'd give anything to watch us play the kind of football they did towards the latter half of last season.

I just don't enjoy watching us anymore. Scraping into the top 4 playing utterly appalling football for the bulk of the season after spending 200m is an absolute disgrace to be honest.

 

[Sultan]

They are not even remotely great teams.

Did I say or even hint about them being great?

 

[legball]

All I want is to see us play good football again. We all love to laugh at Liverpool but I'd give anything to watch us play the kind of football they did towards the latter half of last season.

I just don't enjoy watching us anymore. Scraping into the top 4 playing utterly appalling football for the bulk of the season after spending 200m is an absolute disgrace to be honest.

It's not a disgrace to finish 4th in whatever fashion, after we finished 7th last season, it took Rodgers 18 months to get Liverpool playing well, but he hasn't won anything with it, Liverpool fans are not sitting there lauding him for playing great football. We are in a phase of transition [had to use that word] and every top club goes through it every now and then, we are addressing it though by targeting quality footballers to come into the squad. Context is everything.

 

[lysglimt]

Sure you can buy a great time - but that requires buying the right players. Something LvG clearly hasn't done - it's actually a bit ironic that what has more or less saved his season is the fact that he has managed to turn 3 of our potentially biggest flops into key-players (Mata, Young and Fellaini) - while 5 of the 7 players he signed himself - has been squad-players at best, Shaw has constantly been injured and only Herrera has established himself as a key-player.

So LvG deserves a 6/6 for squad-building, but 1/6 for his signings.

 

[Sam]

We have to spend, because there isn't enough quality in the team to ever win a title.

What we don't have to do is buy 10 £50 million players. Just the right players.

 

[psychdelicblues]

Don't know. City and Chelsea have purchased a few titles. United are going same route.

They are not even remotely great teams.

Did I say or even hint about them being great?

I presumed your post was a response to the actual title of the thread.

 

[Attila]

They are not even remotely great teams.

Chelsea were pretty great. Retained the league with a record amount of points and had a ridiculously strong defence I think. Also managed to get to the Semi-Finals of the champions very consistently. A Terry slip cost them in 08 and the year after they could(should?) have made the final again if it wasn't for some strange referee decisions by that danish referee.

Edit - Could have had another final in 07? if it wasn't for that Liverpool Ghost goal

 

[sun_tzu]

We enjoyed the masterclass from Barcelona on Wednesday

barcelona are a great team, and guess what, the core of that team for the best part of the last decade has been a group of players from their academy, which was then complemented by key signings in certain positions.

.

Barcas team wednesday
Ter Stengen - brought
Alves - brought
Alba - brought
Pique - brought
Mascherano - brought
Busquets -academy
Raticik - brought
Iniesta - academy
Neymar - brought
Messi - academy
Suarez - brought

So that's the example of a not brought team???

 

[Offside]

Maybe great teams are first bought and then built.

This.

 

[Oneunited26]

Players are bought, the best teams are worked on. City maybe the acception where they bought players and never were quiet a team, an ok team but more individual than a team

 

[Attila]

Barcas team wednesday
Ter Stengen - brought
Alves - brought
Alba - brought
Pique - brought
Mascherano - brought
Busquets -academy
Raticik - brought
Iniesta - academy
Neymar - brought
Messi - academy
Suarez - brought

So that's the example of a not brought team???

I believe you mean...bought? 10th time lucky maybe

 

[manutddjw]

The game and players have changed where it's difficult to build a team the way the examples used have.

For top clubs, the pressure on managers to win is so high that it's no wonder they don't want to risk playing an academy player and dealing with the growing pains that come with it. Especially when they can buy an experienced player with relative ease.

On top of that young players aren't willing to be patient with clubs and will leave if they can get playing time elsewhere. Even Barcelona can't stop that and a talented player like Thiago willingly left a great team because of playing time. I'm actually shocked Pereira signed a new deal here.

 

[Walrus]

Barcas team wednesday
Ter Stengen - brought
Alves - brought
Alba - brought
Pique - brought
Mascherano - brought
Busquets -academy
Raticik - brought
Iniesta - academy
Neymar - brought
Messi - academy
Suarez - brought

So that's the example of a not brought team???

This is just bizarre logic. Most of those players - bought or not - have been at the club for years. Barcelona have typically bought 1-2 players each summer so as to ensure a fluid transition and to avoid having the new signings disrupt the style of football or understanding that they have. Obviously if we are comparing this team to the one from say 2009, it has changed, it is stupid to expect otherwise.

 

[MoskvaRed]

United won't get anywhere without spending large sums of money. Rather than discussing to spend or not to spend, the issue is, firstly, identifying and landing targets (easier said than done in the highly competitive modern football environment) and, secondly, moulding them into a coherent, motivated team (which is where selecting the manager is paramount). If we get a genuine top player coming up from the academy, I'd view it as a very unexpected bonus since we haven't produced any for 20 years.

 

[Attila]

This is just bizarre logic. Most of those players - bought or not - have been at the club for years. Barcelona have typically bought 1-2 players each summer so as to ensure a fluid transition and to avoid having the new signings disrupt the style of football or understanding that they have. Obviously if we are comparing this team to the one from say 2009, it has changed, it is stupid to expect otherwise.

Barcelona are adding to one of the best batches of academy players ever. Of course they would only buy 1-2 players a summer. If we had such quality to work with right now we could do the same. Instead we have a squad that finished 7th and is going to scrape into the top 4. It needs a big overhaul.

 

[Walrus]

Barcelona are adding to one of the best batches of academy players ever. Of course they would only buy 1-2 players a summer. If we had such quality to work with right now we could do the same. Instead we have a squad that finished 7th and is going to scrape into the top 4. It needs a big overhaul.

I think that the current squad of players is adequate for us to compete for the PL and CL with one or two quality additions, and some time to gel together and develop an understanding.

GK - De Gea (hopefully)
RB - Need a new one.
CBs - Smalling, Jones, Rojo, McNair (again, given time to develop, this is a very solid set of defenders)
LB - Shaw (Blind as cover)

CMs - Carrick, Herrera, Fellaini, Blind (I think that given time, Blind can develop his game to become an effective replacement for Carrick, and the combination of holding midfielder - herrera - fellaini has shown itself to have a lot of potential)
Wings - Mata, Di Maria, Young, Depay
ST - Rooney, RVP (with cover from Depay/Fellaini and others, and Wilson/Henriquez coming through).

So in addition to Depay, I think we need a new RB and that is mostly 'it'. We can strengthen other areas depending on circumstances if we want to, but for me that group of players is as good as anyone else in the league, the players just need time to develop their abilities and their understanding.

 

[Attila]

I think that the current squad of players is adequate for us to compete for the PL and CL with one or two quality additions, and some time to gel together and develop an understanding.

GK - De Gea (hopefully)
RB - Need a new one.
CBs - Smalling, Jones, Rojo, McNair (again, given time to develop, this is a very solid set of defenders)
LB - Shaw (Blind as cover)

CMs - Carrick, Herrera, Fellaini, Blind (I think that given time, Blind can develop his game to become an effective replacement for Carrick, and the combination of holding midfielder - herrera - fellaini has shown itself to have a lot of potential)
Wings - Mata, Di Maria, Young, Depay
ST - Rooney, RVP (with cover from Depay/Fellaini and others, and Wilson/Henriquez coming through).

So in addition to Depay, I think we need a new RB and that is mostly 'it'. We can strengthen other areas depending on circumstances if we want to, but for me that group of players is as good as anyone else in the league, the players just need time to develop their abilities and their understanding.

We've had one injury to Carrick and have largely fallen apart. Blind has looked pretty bad in his away games as DM. Carrick also has a horrible injury record this season and is now 34.

You have two midfield positions ahead of that holding role and you are proposing that we just have 2 players (Herrera, Fellaini) there. Considering we may be playing around 50 games a season it seems a bit ridiculous to not have at least some form of back up.

Also the CB pair looks a bit poor really. It seems to be very rare for us to have Smalling and Jones fit at the same time. So it could end up being Smalling-Rojo with Mcnair back up for large parts of the season. Will you feel comfortable with Smalling-Mcnair and Mcnair-Rojo for a team that is looking to go for the title and a good champions league run? McNair looks promising and could certainly develop into a decent defender but I wouldn't say he's covered himself in glory in our recent games and I don't think he is ready yet. Would be a massive risk.

In strike you have RVP who has been pretty poor for nearly 2 full seasons now. If he is poor again is our backup really going to be Fellaini up front or Depay who I'm not even sure has played their before? Think Henriquez is leaving and haven't seen enough of Wilson to know what his ability is at.

Either way that squad you have made is way behind the better european teams and even behind Chelsea/Arsenal.

 

[Attila]

Barcelona in 2009
Puyol - 30
Xavi - 28
Abidal - 28
Eto - 27
Valdes - 26
Alves - 25
Toure - 25
Iniesta - 24
Messi - 21
Pique - 21
Pedro - 20
Busquets - 19

It's pretty obvious why Barcelona were only adding a couple of players every Summer. They had a ridiculously strong core/spine with a fantastic age profile. We have nothing like that right now.

Edit - Jesus that is some squad looking back. Unreal

 

[Kill 'em all]

This is just bizarre logic. Most of those players - bought or not - have been at the club for years. Barcelona have typically bought 1-2 players each summer so as to ensure a fluid transition and to avoid having the new signings disrupt the style of football or understanding that they have. Obviously if we are comparing this team to the one from say 2009, it has changed, it is stupid to expect otherwise.

We replaced the likes of Ronaldo and Giggs in his prime with Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia. Scholes with Cleverley and Anderson. We replaced world class players with average players and this is why we're currently in a situation of needing a massive rebuild.

Barcelona replaced quality with quality and that is why they can just sign 1 or 2 to players each transfer window and stay competitive.

 

[Sam]

I think that the current squad of players is adequate for us to compete for the PL and CL with one or two quality additions, and some time to gel together and develop an understanding.

GK - De Gea (hopefully)
RB - Need a new one.
CBs - Smalling, Jones, Rojo, McNair (again, given time to develop, this is a very solid set of defenders)
LB - Shaw (Blind as cover)

CMs - Carrick, Herrera, Fellaini, Blind (I think that given time, Blind can develop his game to become an effective replacement for Carrick, and the combination of holding midfielder - herrera - fellaini has shown itself to have a lot of potential)
Wings - Mata, Di Maria, Young, Depay
ST - Rooney, RVP (with cover from Depay/Fellaini and others, and Wilson/Henriquez coming through).

So in addition to Depay, I think we need a new RB and that is mostly 'it'. We can strengthen other areas depending on circumstances if we want to, but for me that group of players is as good as anyone else in the league, the players just need time to develop their abilities and their understanding.

Good lord.

We need a lot more then just a right back. A lot more.

 

[Attila]

We replaced the likes of Ronaldo and Giggs in his prime with Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia. Scholes with Cleverley and Anderson. We replaced world class players with average players and this is why we're currently in a situation of needing a massive rebuild.

Barcelona replaced quality with quality and that is why they can just sign 1 or 2 to players each transfer window and stay competitive.

We brought in Michael Owen when they bought Ibrahimovic, Bebe/Hernandez for David Villa/Mascherano, Jones/Young for Fabregas/Sanchez, Fellaini for Neymar The quality gap is quite staggering for two teams with near identical revenues. Those loan repayments hit us hard...

 

[Sam]

We brought in Michael Owen when they bought Ibrahimovic, Bebe/Hernandez for David Villa/Mascherano, Jones/Young for Fabregas/Sanchez, Fellaini for Neymar The quality gap is quite staggering for two teams with near identical revenues. Those loan repayments hit us hard...

Are you trying to make me cry?

 

[Kill 'em all]

We brought in Michael Owen when they bought Ibrahimovic, Bebe/Hernandez for David Villa/Mascherano, Jones/Young for Fabregas/Sanchez, Fellaini for Neymar The quality gap is quite staggering for two teams with near identical revenues. Those loan repayments hit us hard...

Not just that, up until 5 years ago we were on the same level as Barcelona and Real Madrid. Arguably even better with 3 champions league finals in the space of 5 years then suddenly our level just went down when we started signing these kind of players.

It's quite amusing how in the space of 4 years you go from this

To this

Rant over.

I'm quite annoyed by the seemingly lack of maintenance to our squad during the last few years of Sir Alex.

 

[Snow]

If you mean that you can't just in one season buy a bunch of players and win, you're right. You can however buy players every season and in 3 seasons time or so you win. That's the Real Madrid model and it works. Chelsea do the same thing, City have done the same. You don't win right away but it sure as hell didn't take them too long from being mid-table to being champions.

 

[Tyrion]

Great teams are built, the neccessary materials however are bought at ridiculously extravagant prices.

Yeah, use Barcelona as an example why don't you.

Neymar - 90 million euros
Suarez - 60 Million euros

Even at their peak when they were fielding all academy 11s, they bought Villa for 40m and Zlatan for 45 plus Eto iirc.

Not just that, up until 5 years ago we were on the same level as Barcelona and Real Madrid. Arguably even better with 3 champions league finals in the space of 5 years then suddenly our level just went down when we started signing these kind of players.

It's quite amusing how in the space of 4 years you go from this

To this

Rant over.

I'm quite annoyed by the seemingly lack of maintenance to our squad during the last few years of Sir Alex.

"I'm happy with what I've got."

 

[NotoriousISSY]

You build your core over time, to last a period of time and put pretty ornaments around it.

Our problem now:

De Gea - I don't think he's here in 2016. Whether we cash in and get something for him in 2015 is another matter.

CBs - An issue. I like all of Smalling, Jones and Rojo but all either are injury prone, or prone to stupid errors...usually in possession. Smalling has had a decent season, but not spectacular.

CM - More so the no.6 role. Only Carrick plays it well. Herrera has been fantastic for the most part as the primary No.8, but when Carrick is out and no one good enough to step into the tempo-setting role, it's a huge issue.

ST - I'm not convinced we have a forward who can guarantee 25 goals. I think all Rooney, RVP and Falcao are decent strikers but with age, Moyes, injuries and slowing down a bit, I don't think we can say any of the above are even in the top 10 forwards in Europe in 2015. Messi, Ronaldo, Costa, Suarez, Ibrahimovic, Lewandowski, Tevez, Aguero, Griezmann and perhaps Lacazette (although yes I know it's the French league and he's not done it consistently yet) have all had significantly better seasons than our lot, with most of the aforementioned scoring more goals alone than our lot combined. Many of those players score goals out of nothing, create their own chances and generally make an obvious difference.

If LVG can work on setting the foundations for a stronger core this summer, we'll be alright in good time. I still believe in 2 years time, when he is gone, we'll see the benefits of some patient work from him. I think it'll be the next manager who wins the trophies.