Is this a compliment or a diss to klopp? Wasn't Sir Alex also a project manager like klopp?
Guardiola vs Klopp
- Thread starter Infordin
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I get what he means tbh. Klopp's go to style is building not only a team but a culture (dare i say cult) within the club and fanbase where it's them vs the world, going on a unique adventure. Klopp see's his journey as more than just silverware, a philosophy the clubs Pep have managed don't buy into.
I don't feel Klopp will be remotely suited to a no grey area win or it's failure type of club (i feel he knows that aswell hence choosing an at the time broken Liverpool when he would have had the pick of jobs). However that's not a slight on him,every manager has strength's and weaknesses, he's perfectly suited to Liverpool and well and truly one of the best managers from this generation.
Managers better than Pep according to the logic some are using:
Rafa: underdog
Ranieri: Uber underdog
Big Sam: underdog (could Pep prevent relegation at Bolton? I think not)
Mourinho: could Pep win a CL with Inter and Porto (and also flirt with relegation)? Of course not
Rafa: underdog
Ranieri: Uber underdog
Big Sam: underdog (could Pep prevent relegation at Bolton? I think not)
Mourinho: could Pep win a CL with Inter and Porto (and also flirt with relegation)? Of course not
Klopp is significantly better coach and manager than pep IMHO. The evolution of Liverpool under him has been quite transformative and he could do it with with far less money compared to pep.
Pep is not proven outside of being a cheque book manager or one who has the cheat mode with messi
Pep is not proven outside of being a cheque book manager or one who has the cheat mode with messi
If Klopp was manager of anybody but Liverpool I suspect this poll would be much more heavily weighted in his favour (even if Pep wasn't at City)
Pep is maybe technically the more gifted coach in terms of the complexities of the game and has his teams probably playing the exquisite football when at their best, but Klopp's achievements are far more impressive and he has Liverpool playing football just as watchable if slightly less technically composed.
Pep has only ever managed the best team in the country with the biggest budget, Klopp has proved himself twice at clubs without that and playing the right way.
It's sickening to say it but Liverpool probably have the best manager in the world right now, even if he is a bit of weird whining cnut sometimes.
Pep is maybe technically the more gifted coach in terms of the complexities of the game and has his teams probably playing the exquisite football when at their best, but Klopp's achievements are far more impressive and he has Liverpool playing football just as watchable if slightly less technically composed.
Pep has only ever managed the best team in the country with the biggest budget, Klopp has proved himself twice at clubs without that and playing the right way.
It's sickening to say it but Liverpool probably have the best manager in the world right now, even if he is a bit of weird whining cnut sometimes.
Pep was a disappointment at Bayern, he wasn't brought to win their yearly Liga -they had just won the treble under Heynckes-, he got slapped in 3 CL semifinals in a row by 3 different Spanish oppositions. In other words he did feck all at Bayern.
Pep's possesion game has been read by a lot of teams and every half decent team will fancy their chances against this sorry defense and a keeper (both of them infact) of questionable quality. On the other hand the Dippers play great press and never stop with the momentum so the opposition is always on the back foot. Im really sorry to say but Klopp seems the better manager of the two and pretty much more suited for this league.
More suited than the coach who won back to back league titles each with record points never seen before
The management of Bayern think otherwise because they offered him an extension and will take him back in a heartbeat. The Bayern FO knew why they brought in Pep and why they offered him an extension not armchair internet analysts
Sam Allardyce wouldn't have lost a single game with the City squad. Not a big achievement
Bayern, according to the advice of this group, would be wise to go with a manager like Mourinho, who's demonstrated his genius over the years. Or probably Benitez. He did wonders with Newcastle, imagine how much of an improvement he would be over
I see a lot of Pep fans have become a lot more salty since CL final / August.
I do feel sorry for people who are adamant Pep isn't a great manager.
The sheer amount of mental gymnastics that must take.
The sheer amount of mental gymnastics that must take.
Pep is a great manager, but there is always going to be an asterisk by his name until he shows he can do it without being gifted best squad and most money in whichever league he is playing.
Indeed
Hes a great manager but theres doubt of how great he is when he hasnt got the best side in the league and can simply swamp sides / a league.
A lot of questions will be answered with how he approaches the Liverpool problem and his approach to CL.
Spending over 100m in January will hurt his legacy imo. He has more than enough to be doing better this season.
There's always an element to having the best team, how many title winners didn't have either the strongest squad or the second strongest? In PL history I can literally only think of Leicester and at a push Fergie's last title winning side.
Pep will always manage strong teams purely because he's earned the right, he created what many regard to be the greatest team of all time in his first job, unless he has a Jose/Wenger style fall from grace he will have the pick of top jobs until he retires.
Now you could say he was lucky to get such a job so early, but to keep getting these type of jobs is testiment to how good he's is, he wouldn't keep getting and keeping top jobs if he wasn't capable (for example as soon as Ole leaves United his top level career is over) or Barca was a fluke (see Di Matteo winning us the CL only to now be three years without a job).
Thankfully he to his own admission is only a four year cycle esque manager, because if he cracked the long term thing, we'd have all been in big trouble.
It just seems to me that hes become a league bully with his superior squads and is falling short time and time again against sides that narrows that gap.
Again, great manager but he was credited with revolutionising football despite no other top side mimicing his style nor the proof that its nothing but a short term gain.
Hes being overtook by a football throwback in Klopp with fixed positions, hard working midfielders and width from FBs on a third of the budget. Thats not taking into account shitting the bed in CL knockout games time and time again.
So many essays written about him and it already seems like his style of football is out of date at the elite level. His possession game has been lessened with more and more of the play coming from wide. I honestly dont think this is what Pep is aiming for but its how theyre playing.
Even during their run last season they tended to shut up shop after a goal or two, the control was gone and games were a lot more even instead of the 90 minutes slaughter.
They havent gotten out of that mindset as yet. Instead of watching KDB run midfields we are hearing how great he is at crosses because hes forced wide to get the ball in dangerous positions. He has trouble with his fullbacks because of it as well. Theyre no longer asked to privide extra passing lanes in midfield and are asked to do jobs that they werent bought for.
Pep really needs to address this and fast. He cant be giving the excuse of the end of a 2 (!) year cycle and run off to work with Neymar and Mbappe. He needs to show he can kick a team back into the elite again.
That's just the prominent German coaches I already knew about. I'm sure internationally there are loads more who were inspired by Guardiola or even try to emulate him. I wouldn't be surprised if ten Hag coached Bayern's second team because of him either.
Yeah Guardiola revolutionised football to argue he didn't is crazy, no other modern manager as had as much impact in terms of coaching and methods.
Quiqe Setien,Pablo Machin, Julen Lopetegui from Spain, Thomas Tuchel, Julian Nagelsmann from Germany, Erik Ten Hag, Peter Bosz from Holland, Paulo Fonseca from Portugal, Maurizo Sarri, Roberto De Zerbi and Thiago Motta in Italy, even Roberto Martinez and Brendan Rodgers - all of them are using most of the principles of Guardiola's positional play.. If you watched closely the Barca- Inter game from the last month it was fascinating how Conte's team played from the back and started it's attacks exactly in the way Pep's Barca did it 10 years ago..
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Klopp. He's out on his own as the world's best manager in this moment in time. I don't think any other manager comes close right now to be honest.
Pep is decent but a little overrated. Pep failed badly in the champions league with Bayern, and is repeating that failure at City.
I think if Pochettino went to Madrid or Bayern, then he'd be mentioned in the same breath as those two after a couple of years.
Pep is decent but a little overrated. Pep failed badly in the champions league with Bayern, and is repeating that failure at City.
I think if Pochettino went to Madrid or Bayern, then he'd be mentioned in the same breath as those two after a couple of years.
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In Germany I would say Klopp had a bigger influence (even if it may only be because his methods are extremely cost efficient and a blue print for weaker teams to overachieve), but internationally probably not so much I guess!?
For example, winning the CL with;
Valdes
Pique
Puyol
Alves
Yaya Toure
Busquets
Xavi
Iniesta
Eto
Henry
Messi
or to win the CL with;
Alison
Milner
Henderson
Shaquiri
Origi
Robertson
Trent
Fabinho
Wijnaldum
Salah
Mane
Which is more revolutionary?
Valdes
Pique
Puyol
Alves
Yaya Toure
Busquets
Xavi
Iniesta
Eto
Henry
Messi
or to win the CL with;
Alison
Milner
Henderson
Shaquiri
Origi
Robertson
Trent
Fabinho
Wijnaldum
Salah
Mane
Which is more revolutionary?
All talk. Nobody out there tries to play like Pep. Hell even Pep needs the perfect squad to succeed.
The proof is in the pudding. Possession based teams are getting reemed by the high press and counter attack.
Im sure we could pick out a million quotes about Jose etc. Even the high press etc was lifted from our 08 side and the the EPL style at the time. The fundamentals that Pep brings in terms of possession play is beginning to already find itself outdated at the top level
Not really, all the top teams are possession teams.
Who? Madrid arent, Juve is laughably not, PSG and Bayern arent passing sides to death. Liverpool aren't. Madrid sat back and destroyed all of Europe for years. Even Barca get it forward from back to front as fast as they can.
Nobody really sets out to dominate possession. They just dont.
Pep is even shying away from that these days
All of them average more possession than all the other sides no? I mean Man City doesn't play like Barca do they?
Do you not think City press?
I'm sorry, but your argument is all over the place. (high) pressing wasnt invented by United or the EPL. It goes at least as far back as the 70s I believe and Sacchi is mostly credited with making it popular in the modern game. That's not what that particular quote is about though, it's Klopp basically describing how Guardiola's Barcelona was "the best example he has ever seen" for what is today called "Gegenpressing".
Teams don't need to play as good or as dominant as Pep's Barcelona to make use of his ideas. Klopp is the perfect example of this as his philosophy in possession is in stark contrast to Pep's. Nagelsmann for example uses positional play that's definitely inspired by Pep. Tuchel is probably the most obvious Guardiola disciple out there, if you don't see the similarities then I don't know what to tell you.
So, what you are basically saying is that Klopp is Guardiola´s copycat.
Guardiola;“ I learned a lot in Germany the first time I played his team. I was new and it was ‘wow’, what a good lesson. We lost 4-2. Afterwards in the league I learned a bit more about how to control those situations but it was never easy. When Klopp speaks about his football being heavy metal, I understand completely. It is so aggressive. For the fans it is really good.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...la-learned-from-jurgen-klopp-praise-attacking
I didn't make the Klopp quote up. Klopp being impressed, perhaps inspired, by the Gegenpressing of Guardiola's Barcelona doesn't mean he copied the entire style, I think the difference in both philosophes are obvious to anyone who has two eyes and half a brain, but that doesn't mean that they can't share certain aspects, so I don't know what that quote is supposed to tell me.
There are alot of coaches that are heavily inspired by Guardiola (Tuchel, Nagelsmann, EtH probably being the best of the lot) whilst there are likewise as many inspired by Klopp (Rose, also Nagelsmann, even Heynckes' Bayern was also heavily based on that Dortmund side).
All the top teams are possession teams against lesser league sides, yeah, that's simply because they have superior individuals and automatically see more of the ball. But when they are playing oppositions of similar quality, that's where a team's "true" style of play is exposed. Liverpool's game is still very similar against the top teams to what they were playing the first years when Klopp was appointed. They still are unrivalled when it comes to fast transitions and counter attacking and that's still their bread and butter, although most teams try to sit deep and park the bus against them and therefore we see way less of those insanely fast counters than we used to.
They are both great managers, but their remits are different, Pep is tasked with going into a club and winning straight away, whereas Klopp, is afforded the time to make gradual improvements, to get to the same outcome 'winning trophies'. The reason why Pep comes unstuck by Klopp, is because Klopp is about efficiency, whereas Pep is about asthtetic beauty.
Pep teams win the ball and the underlying idea is to recycle it from deep [pass, pass,pass] and thus domnate possession, when Klopp's team win the ball, it forms part of their make up to the team creating chances.
What Pep finds it hard to understand is how a team can have such few chances and produce end results, and especially against Liverpool as with Klopps Dortmond, Pep is extremely weary of Klopps teams abilty to transistion at speed.
Where Pep's teams require players with high creativity, Klopp on the other hand require players who are highly analytical, where both share similarities is players they buy temd to be good decision makers and hard working.
Pep teams win the ball and the underlying idea is to recycle it from deep [pass, pass,pass] and thus domnate possession, when Klopp's team win the ball, it forms part of their make up to the team creating chances.
What Pep finds it hard to understand is how a team can have such few chances and produce end results, and especially against Liverpool as with Klopps Dortmond, Pep is extremely weary of Klopps teams abilty to transistion at speed.
Where Pep's teams require players with high creativity, Klopp on the other hand require players who are highly analytical, where both share similarities is players they buy temd to be good decision makers and hard working.
That Liverpool side need to sign a good CB to win anything
Cold hard fact is that Liverpool have more in their DNA than City. Guardiola would have won the CL with them.
I know alot of people talk about Pep failing at clubs where he should have done better due to size & money - but I wouldn't be surprised if Klopp sticks to this sleeping giant type management of clubs where he goes with the least pressure possible to wake that giant up.
I reckon his next job is AC Milan.
Guardiola needs to simplify his game more.
I reckon his next job is AC Milan.
Guardiola needs to simplify his game more.
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True
I'm a huge Klopp admirer even simce before his Dortmund days. However, the task of a coach is to maximize the likelihood of winning and at least for top clubs, Guardiola simply edges it for me. That is at least until recently.
Thing is, if you have the better team you'll naturaly end up with mlre of the ball because the opponent accepts his underdog role and use tactics that won't alow your players to utilize said quality advantage. The core of Pep's philosophy is actually not possession but creating clear cut chances through subtle passing, movement and dribbling instead of 'head through the wall' approaches like crossing and long shots which have very bad likelihoods of scoring. Klopp is different. His philosophy counts primarily on transitional moments after winning the ball high up the pitch. However, he relies on the opponent to actually try and play football, take risks in the build up etc. so this strategy is perfect for underdogs while Pep's is perfect for favourites. Klopp saw that and adapted his Liverpool and especially his Dortmund side, integrating elements of possession football in routine matches but never on the same level as Guardiola. That's why I prefer Pep ultimately. As the best coach in the world you'll naturally end up with the best players and I feel Guardiola is better at utilizing this advantage.
However, Klopp really stepped up last season aand that's primarily through the way he utilizes his fullbacks. The way Robertson and especially Alexander Arnold are playing is revolutionary and a great pattern to split up low blocks. It's also completely different to Guardiola's aproach but apparently similarly efficient. Which is remarkable since he ultimately made one of the least efficient attacking patterns (crossing) a true alternative.
So yeah, in the end it's still Guardiola for me but Klopp has really done his homework and is catching up rapidly.
Thing is, if you have the better team you'll naturaly end up with mlre of the ball because the opponent accepts his underdog role and use tactics that won't alow your players to utilize said quality advantage. The core of Pep's philosophy is actually not possession but creating clear cut chances through subtle passing, movement and dribbling instead of 'head through the wall' approaches like crossing and long shots which have very bad likelihoods of scoring. Klopp is different. His philosophy counts primarily on transitional moments after winning the ball high up the pitch. However, he relies on the opponent to actually try and play football, take risks in the build up etc. so this strategy is perfect for underdogs while Pep's is perfect for favourites. Klopp saw that and adapted his Liverpool and especially his Dortmund side, integrating elements of possession football in routine matches but never on the same level as Guardiola. That's why I prefer Pep ultimately. As the best coach in the world you'll naturally end up with the best players and I feel Guardiola is better at utilizing this advantage.
However, Klopp really stepped up last season aand that's primarily through the way he utilizes his fullbacks. The way Robertson and especially Alexander Arnold are playing is revolutionary and a great pattern to split up low blocks. It's also completely different to Guardiola's aproach but apparently similarly efficient. Which is remarkable since he ultimately made one of the least efficient attacking patterns (crossing) a true alternative.
So yeah, in the end it's still Guardiola for me but Klopp has really done his homework and is catching up rapidly.
Other managers have spent money and had Messi you know.
It's not an exclusive thing to Pep.