Have state funded oil clubs ruined football?

[JPRouve]

I conceded my choice of words was harsh, that doesn't mean you can totally make up what you think my point was, when the crux of my point was about competitiveness between PSG and the others in the league... a gap that's become a chasm this transfer window.

I won't pay to watch Messi and the Harlem globe trotters at PSG hammer clubs in the French league the same way I wouldn't pay to watch Mike Tyson fight Mr Bean. That's my point.

I do in fact have a modicum of respect for teams in a league trying to overcome a state backed sports-washing club like PSG, a team that will hoover up 99% of trophies in said league. I would loathe taking part in a league that is pretty much decided before a ball is kicked (unless Poch is in town.) Does it keep me up at night? No it doesn't.

Do I think the standard in French football is much lower than you would expect from a nation with a conveyor belt of top level talent? Yes. I think it's probably the lowest standard of the top European leagues. Doesn't mean it's not competitive if the teams are all the same standard with the exception of one. They are competitively shite. Again I'm being harsh now but you've poked the bear

No one asked you to pay anything and there is more games that do not involve PSG than games that involves them, similarly there are more games not involving Tyson than games involving him, fans of Boxing enjoy a range of fighters and aren't solely interested in title fights or even just the main card. You are demonstrating what has ruined Football, people that care more about someone else's silverware and media narratives than the game itself.

As for the bolded question, surely you realize that being conveyor belt of top level talent for other leagues means that the league continuously has to replace talent? The reason the league isn't better is because teams from other leagues are buying success with Ligue 1 talent.

 

[Winzaghi]

What difference does it make where the financial disparity is coming from? As long as the paradigm revolves around the teams with the most money invariably being the most successful, you can't really claim that certain teams are ruining it when they aren't doing anything out of the ordinary to achieve success (apart from maybe scale).

 

[Bole Top]

No, the financial disparity between clubs has ruined the competitiveness of European football decades ago. At least the oil money has created a few new clubs at the top that are able to compete with old money clubs. So if anything it's making it slightly more interesting.

completely agree.

 

[RUCK4444]

PSG aren't the main problem there in terms of the standard being lower than you expect. It's other richer leagues poaching young french players all the time, creating greater instability than in the leagues rated above.

This whole discussion is also really euro-centric. i don't think many South American football fans that lament the significant decline in their best leagues and constant poaching of talent by often less talented, richer European countries will be thinking it's suddenly PSG or City that have been the cause.

Yeah but this problem of players being poached has been around forever and will be around forever.

They can’t sit still and say ‘ah well we’ve got PSG and Messi in the country.’

They have to make the league more attractive. Right now there is no balance, it’s PSG or move abroad.

 

[tomaldinho1]

For me the issue isn’t oil or state it’s the human rights side. I don’t care if sugar daddies come into every single team as long as they follow the rules and the money doesn’t come from a country who aren’t in the 21st century.

PL would be epic if we had 20 sugar daddy clubs who all just ploughed money into the stadiums, academies and players.

 

[RUCK4444]

No one asked you to pay anything and there is more games that do not involve PSG than games that involves them, similarly there are more games not involving Tyson than games involving him, fans of Boxing enjoy a range of fighters and aren't solely interested in title fights or even just the main card. You are demonstrating what has ruined Football, people that care more about someone else's silverware and media narratives than the game itself.

As for the bolded question, surely you realize that being conveyor belt of top level talent for other leagues means that the league continuously has to replace talent? The reason the league isn't better is because teams from other leagues are buying success with Ligue 1 talent.

God you like to overanalyse every word don’t you, I’m not talking literally about Mike Tyson boxing Mr Bean Yet you go off on a tangent about boxing.

On the bolded, that’s exactly the point I made, you have a nation of super talented players that you need to keep within the national league, the challenge is to make your league a place they want to stay.

It’s not the premier leagues fault they want to leave and a fair chunk will be plying their trade at these State funded clubs the OP is referring to.

 

[JPRouve]

God you like to overanalyse every word don’t you, I’m not talking literally about Mike Tyson boxing Mr Bean Yet you go off on a tangent about boxing.

On the bolded, that’s exactly the point I made, you have a nation of super talented players that you need to keep within the national league, the challenge is to make your league a place they want to stay.

It’s not the premier leagues fault they want to leave and a fair chunk will be plying their trade at these State funded clubs the OP is referring to.

I simply used your analogy as a crutch to make a point about what interest football or boxing fans, I thought that it was fairly obvious but my bad.

As for the rest I don't know if you are purposely obtuse or if you genuinely struggle with the fact that they move for money, the challenge has been lost a long time ago, the average wage in Ligue 1 is less than half of the average wage in the PL. One of the way to keep players or attract them in Ligue 1 is wealthy owners like QSI or Rybolovlev.

 

[Kentonio]

It was exactly your point, you have no respect for other clubs or fans. Also you don't feel for teams in Ligue 1, you don't care nor knows the reality of the league, you don't care about the fact that the concern for LIgue 1 is money from other leagues, that Ligue 1 players leave the league mainly to the PL because they will earn a lot more money even if it's to a mid to lower table team. And when the league was more competitive none of you were watching it and the league being competitive didn't help create more consistent top teams, on the contrary.

If PSG wasn't around the only difference would be that Ligue 1 wouldn't have a competitive CL caliber team and no superstars. Players would still leave for more money and most likely at a higher rate.

And the main reason there isn't a lot of money is that the French don't particularly care about football generally, other than major international tournaments..

Too easy..

 

[ariveded]

I couldn't care about the competitiveness or the transfer fees. My issue is always been me vs the club/players.

As fans, the gap is surreal now, and so what's the point of even supporting the teams? Players lack loyalty and will look to be on the move. And clubs excessively charging fans. And these clubs keep a lot of their non-playing staff at low wages. So the wealth is always in the hand of the top 10%, and they continue exploit the fans with money and emotions.

 

[JPRouve]

And the main reason there isn't a lot of money is that the French don't particularly care about football generally, other than major international tournaments..

They do care but not as a business or something they will pay a fortune for. They play football and enjoy local games, the other thing is that in France people rarely support an other team than their local team, so for example a club like Lyon has fans in Lyon and Rhone Alpes but not beyond that, historically the exceptions are ASSE and Marseille.

 

[Kentonio]

They do care but not as a business or something they will pay a fortune for. They play football and enjoy local games, the other thing is that in France people rarely support an other team than their local team, so for example a club like Lyon has fans in Lyon and Rhone Alpes but not beyond that, historically the exceptions are ASSE and Marseille.

I wish there were less PSG fans here in Lyon..

 

[JPRouve]

I wish there were less PSG fans here in Lyon..

PSG are gaining a lot of new fans or at least lots of people have their shirts which is a strange sight. It used to be rare when I was a teenager, you would see a lot of people wearing their shirt in Paris but not so much outside of it, Marseille was the only club with a large national fanbase.

 

[Winzaghi]

PSG are gaining a lot of new fans or at least lots of people have their shirts which is a strange sight. It used to be rare when I was a teenager, you would see a lot of people wearing their shirt in Paris but not so much outside of it, Marseille was the only club with a large national fanbase.

It's because their shirts are usually so good. It's more of a fashion thing than anything to do with football really.

 

[Stookie]

Yes. More or less killed my love for football especially as they seem to do what they want.

 

[JPRouve]

It's because their shirts are usually so good. It's more of a fashion thing than anything to do with football really.

That's my suspicion and why I only mentioned ASSE and Marseille. Now kids will most likely start supporting them if they have some of their idols.

 

[Oly Francis]

Yeah but this problem of players being poached has been around forever and will be around forever.

They can’t sit still and say ‘ah well we’ve got PSG and Messi in the country.’

They have to make the league more attractive. Right now there is no balance, it’s PSG or move abroad.

It got far worse after the Bosman ruling though, that's what reallly killed diversity throughout Europe. You'll never see a club like Red Star Belgrade win a CL ever again.

For me the issue isn’t oil or state it’s the human rights side. I don’t care if sugar daddies come into every single team as long as they follow the rules and the money doesn’t come from a country who aren’t in the 21st century.

PL would be epic if we had 20 sugar daddy clubs who all just ploughed money into the stadiums, academies and players.

That's what i'm struggling with on this forum as a 25+years PSG fan. The club is almost solely defined through its owner, which is absurd to fans like me or hundreds I know because I was at the Parc des Princes with my father when we were owned by Canal + and beat Cruyff's Barça in 1995 after beating Bayern or Spartak Moscow, i was at the Parc des Princes in 2008, owned by Colony Capital, when we were almost relegated. I mean this club is so much more than Qatar to a lot of us.

I couldn't care about the competitiveness or the transfer fees. My issue is always been me vs the club/players.

As fans, the gap is surreal now, and so what's the point of even supporting the teams? Players lack loyalty and will look to be on the move. And clubs excessively charging fans. And these clubs keep a lot of their non-playing staff at low wages. So the wealth is always in the hand of the top 10%, and they continue exploit the fans with money and emotions.

It's always something that makes me giggle a bit when I hear english fans very proud of their teams "deserving" their revenues. Money comes from somewhere, and english teams are wealthy in large part because clubs get a lot of money through excessive ticket prices or expensive tv subscription. Is it that righteous? More than Qatar money for sure but still, it's taking a lot from the fans pockets. From a very selfish point of view, i'm sometimes happy Qatar spends its money and not mine.

 

[Wolf1992]

The financial muscle in the EPL in general is good for European football.

The financial muscle of EPL teams,Barca,Bayern,Real Madrid,etc have literally screwed the dutch and portuguese league.

 

[Kentonio]

That's what i'm struggling with on this forum as a 25+years PSG fan. The club is almost solely defined through its owner, which is absurd to fans like me or hundreds I know because I was at the Parc des Princes with my father when we were owned by Canal + and beat Cruyff's Barça in 1995 after beating Bayern or Spartak Moscow, i was at the Parc des Princes in 2008, owned by Colony Capital, when we were almost relegated. I mean this club is so much more than Qatar to a lot of us.

It's just aristos turning their noses up at the nouveaux riche. Don't take it to heart.

 

[George the Cat]

Remind me how many Champions leagues they have won?

 

[Crustanoid]

They’ve ruined an entire sport! One which has been evolving since the mid 1800s. Just because of the whims of two oil states, a complete cvnt who capitalised on USSR capitulating and the fans of those three ‘clubs’, utter dickheads to a man, the sport that we all love is in its death throes.

Well done Plastics!

Thanks for completely fvcking football up forever! You are the sputum in the toilet bowl of humanity. The history of football, the social history which developed alongside it, the working class….you pissed all over it you self entitled cheating corrupt cnuts.

Nice one for taking that all away from the people.

 

[Oly Francis]

I wish there were less PSG fans here in Lyon


It's just aristos turning their noses up at the nouveaux riche. Don't take it to heart.

Yeah i know i'm kinda asking for it by coming here but it gets frustrating sometimes when you only read stuffs like "you have no history" "oil club", "plastic club" etc. I'm pretty sure that anyone here who attended a game against PSG either at home or away knows that they have a dedicated group of fans that are far from being "plastic".

 

[Rajiztar]

Messi went to psg the same reason Ronaldo went to real Madrid.Simply money. What should messi do keep his fingers crossed and reduce his pay because his childhood club became bankrupt. Footballers have very minimal window to earn as much as they can.

I will be happy if these players got more money than clubs and it's ceos. Because players entertained us not these stupid money grabbing clubs and it's overpaid ceos.

Players now has options to earn more and they should rightfully earn as much as they can. Oil clubs or traditional clubs they will goto highest bidder.

Of course if the player get career threatening injury nobody will look after them neither traditional club nor oil club.

I am happy because of oil clubs players have the leverage to negotiate better deal for their own good from their current employer.

As some one said many big teams poached talented youngsters from lesser leagues and luring players from even rivals. It's always happening nothing new here in football.

 

[Oly Francis]

Messi went to psg the same reason Ronaldo went to real Madrid.Simply money. What should messi do keep his fingers crossed and reduce his pay because his childhood club became bankrupt. Footballers have very minimal window to earn as much as they can.

Money played a role for sure but it's definitely not "simply money", he also joined a competitve team with a lot of friends and teamates in it, we know him and Neymar pushed for years to play together again, either for Barcelona or PSG. The city is also far more appealing for a family with kids than Manchester for exemple.

 

[Crustanoid]

Messi went to psg the same reason Ronaldo went to real Madrid.Simply money

Complete and utter bollocks. Ronaldo always wanted to play for Real. Stop peddling a false narrative to justify your plasticness

 

[Rajiztar]

Complete and utter bollocks. Ronaldo always wanted to play for Real. Stop peddling a false narrative to justify your plasticness

Oh seriously and he doubled tripled his wages after leaving Manchester. Then jumped juve for more money mate. It's not about Ronaldo moved to his dream real madrid for less money. It's always about money. Get on with it.

 

[Kentonio]

Yeah i know i'm kinda asking for it by coming here but it gets frustrating sometimes when you only read stuffs like "you have no history" "oil club", "plastic club" etc. I'm pretty sure that anyone here who attended a game against PSG either at home or away knows that they have a dedicated group of fans that are far from being "plastic".

As a Chelsea fan I can assure you that you get used to it..

 

[P-Ro]

Money played a role for sure but it's definitely not "simply money", he also joined a competitve team with a lot of friends and teamates in it, we know him and Neymar pushed for years to play together again, either for Barcelona or PSG. The city is also far more appealing for a family with kids than Manchester for exemple.

To be fair, you've run into the most mental person in @Crustanoid when it comes to Chelsea/PSG/City. Read his posts with a jug of salt.

 

[tomaldinho1]

That's what i'm struggling with on this forum as a 25+years PSG fan. The club is almost solely defined through its owner, which is absurd to fans like me or hundreds I know because I was at the Parc des Princes with my father when we were owned by Canal + and beat Cruyff's Barça in 1995 after beating Bayern or Spartak Moscow, i was at the Parc des Princes in 2008, owned by Colony Capital, when we were almost relegated. I mean this club is so much more than Qatar to a lot of us.

I do actually feel for you because, of course, if you had the option not to have an owner with links to human rights offences you’d choose not to but fans have so little power. Genuinely what can you do but stop watching the club you love and that’s unrealistic. Why shouldn’t you enjoy your football club being this new superpower?

In reality this is a government level problem, they are letting human rights down and sending a poor message. Fans are just caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Wolf1992]

And when the league was more competitive none of you were watching it and the league being competitive didn't help create more consistent top teams, on the contrary.

Most people in this forum are from anglo countries, they wouldn't watch the french league anyway if it was competitive(just one ir two matches at best).They already don't watch Bundesliga,Serie A, and La Liga unless Juventus/Inter,Barcelona/Real Madrid,Bayern Munich/Dortmund are playing.

People mostly watch what it's in their own language.... except for English, because is second most dominant language across the world, so people consider to adopt it as their second language over any other language.

This is why you see non-anglo people consuming movies in english, but you barely see anglo people consuming french,german,russian,italian,spanish,indian,brazilian,etc films, and the few who do are called "hipsters" in their own countries.

No need to worry much about anglo speaking people not wanting to see something that isn't not related to the english language, because that's the norm anyway due, also in other aspects not just football, due to cultural dominance.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Nope, the more rich clubs the merrier. It's not that traditional giants can't match up, they are wasting club resources. The vast amounts of money in football ensured that the competitveness disappeared long before the state owned clubs.

 

[Tincanalley]

Honestly? Look at the semi finals of the CL last year. Did anyone give a flying feck which one of those soulless orgs won?

They've not ruined football for me, at least not yet, and certain rules (squad sizes and homegrown player rules) mean that there is only so much they can do. But they've been an absolutely insidious influence everywhere - on the sporting bodies, on transfer fees and wages, on fans, and even on journalists who they pay off for positive coverage.

In many ways I tend to agree with you. Certainly an insidious influence. But the ‘who gives a feck about the triumphs of plastics’ has a whiff of self-comforting denial about it. It’s our game, we as fans support it. The cup of European champions should not be sold above our heads to non European oligarchs and civil rights abusers. It takes the joy out of it, and the competition. It dirties all by association. My wish is to see City forced to divorce from the fraudulent ‘sponsorship’ of a nation state. Let them stand on their own after being weaned off the black stuff, .

 

[Wolf1992]

And the main reason there isn't a lot of money is that the French don't particularly care about football generally, other than major international tournaments..

Too easy..

French do care about Football, especially their own.I would say more than the UCL, unless it's PSG(for obvious reasons)
But caring about football doesn't equal to big money, Germany has a bit more football fans in the stadiums than England, still Bayern dominates the whole league, and the rest of the league are just mere providers of players/managers for EPL teams and Bayern Munich.

There are many other factors that attract big money, which is why England is still better for foreign investors than any other big country, probably only contested by America...but that can be a curse in the future too, so it's a double edge sword.

 

[Oly Francis]

I do actually feel for you because, of course, if you had the option not to have an owner with links to human rights offences you’d choose not to but fans have so little power. Genuinely what can you do but stop watching the club you love and that’s unrealistic. Why shouldn’t you enjoy your football club being this new superpower?

In reality this is a government level problem, they are letting human rights down and sending a poor message. Fans are just caught between a rock and a hard place.

Thanks for actually trying to see things from another fan's perspective.

Yeah that the thing, i'm not going stop supporting PSG because of the 4th owner i've known in my lifetime. Yes it has deep pockets but we didn't chose it and it'll go eventually, and we'll still be here (some supporters actually stopped going to the Parc des Princes just before Qatar took over but it was for the wrong reasons).

I've been in favor of FFP for years now, i've always thought UEFA should allow new investors but also should ask them to build a sustainable business plan after a couple of years. It took longer than expected with PSG because we did have too much leeway for 5 years or so but fortunately we don't rely as much on the owner anymore (in 2015 had Qatar left, we'd gone belly up).

 

[Crustanoid]

To be fair, you've run into the most mental person in @Crustanoid when it comes to Chelsea/PSG/City. Read his posts with a jug of salt.

You’re enabling the shitshow, on a daily basis. Nice one for being part of fvcking up a century and a half of probably the most important sport, socially on the planet. Please desist from shallow sweeping statements on mental health too.

 

[P-Ro]

You’re enabling the shitshow, on a daily basis. Nice one for being part of fvcking up a century and a half of probably the most important sport, socially on the planet. Please desist from shallow sweeping statements on mental health too.

 

[Infordin]

How about putting in some transfer fee caps and wage caps. Take severe action if clubs violate (pay players secretly). Then have release clauses in contracts so players can move if they want to.

Also cap agent fee.

This, this and this.

 

[Oly Francis]

This, this and this.

It's actually not that great an idea, too many caps will result in clubs making too much profits, meaning it'll attract predotary investors only here to profit as much as they can before ditching the club.

I still think the original FFP was a good idea and only needed a couple of improvements to really be efficient (it actually was, the overall debt in europe before COVID was far lower than it used to be).

 

[Winzaghi]

It's actually not that great an idea, too many caps will result in clubs making too much profits, meaning it'll attract predotary investors only here to profit as much as they can before ditching the club.

I still think the original FFP was a good idea and only needed a couple of improvements to really be efficient (it actually was, the overall debt in europe before COVID was far lower than it used to be).

All the original FFP did was put up the drawbridge behind the original top 4 + City (and Spurs who squeaked through at the death). It prevented smaller clubs from ever competing as there is this insurmountably tall glass ceiling that FFP introduced. The ceiling was there before but it could be breached by extremely wealthy owners willing to bankroll the clubs, aka City.

 

[RC89]

No, PSG despite being in a one horse race have been less dominant in their league than Lyon were immediately before their cash injection. Since City's money there have been 3 teams outside of them to win the league. Sadly we weren't one of them. Neither have won the CL in that time either. Although City have absolutely dominated the league cup whatever that's worth.

 

[Tyrion]

You can only field 11 players.

Which is another problem. It means that the brilliant players these clubs buy spend a lot of time on the bench rather than starting for a poorer club. We do this too. DVDB is sitting on the bench for us rather than excelling somewhere else.