No, the financial disparity between clubs has ruined the competitiveness of European football decades ago. At least the oil money has created a few new clubs at the top that are able to compete with old money clubs. So if anything it's making it slightly more interesting.
Have state funded oil clubs ruined football?
- Thread starter Schmeichel's Cartwheel
- Start date
Wages is not accounted for here.
We did well bringing through a ton of youth, but their quality would have been reflected in their wages.
I would say it is a continuation of football ruining itself. You cannot just pinpoint one aspect. It's very convenient to have City and PSG as the pinup boys, and they certainly fit the bill, however you cannot look beyond the structure of football and the lack of strong governance and direction.
It has essentially been open to anybody doing what the hell they want. Until a system is in place that restricts spending and wages and brings other teams closer to parity then you can't really blame sides that operate within parameters that are allowed.
At the moment you have those that have endless pits of money, those like ourselves that are revenue rich and protectionist in our outlook and the have nots that have virtually no chance of doing anything. That is the brutal truth that needs to be faced.
Money and greed ruined football, on a sporting level the closer matched more teams are the better but we have gone down this road for so long that it is probably irredeemable.
It has essentially been open to anybody doing what the hell they want. Until a system is in place that restricts spending and wages and brings other teams closer to parity then you can't really blame sides that operate within parameters that are allowed.
At the moment you have those that have endless pits of money, those like ourselves that are revenue rich and protectionist in our outlook and the have nots that have virtually no chance of doing anything. That is the brutal truth that needs to be faced.
Money and greed ruined football, on a sporting level the closer matched more teams are the better but we have gone down this road for so long that it is probably irredeemable.
Money ruined football
I think one could argue that its gotten better, overall. Rather than the same 2 or 3 clubs being at the top, we have moved from a 'big two' to a 'big four' and now it's all about 'the big 6' and that doesn't include Leicester or anyone else. The top half of the league is all pretty strong, we have had a good representation in Europe over the last few years and that's not all City. United have reached a final, Liverpool won the CL and beat City to the league.
The coming season could be one of the most exciting we've had. 4 clubs who will all feel they can challenge for the title, 7 or 8 clubs who will feel they can finish in the top 6 and even push for top 4 as well.
I think a large part of this argument comes from people who just a bit jealous to be honest. If we spent £300 million in a window and brought in N'didi and Haaland to go with Sancho and Varane, I don't imagine many of our fans would be kicking off over concern about ruining football. "But we make our own money", no club can hope to get remotely close to the top and earn the revenie necessary to be self funded unless they get an injection. The gap is just way too big. Burnley simply won't reach anywhere close to our revenues etc without an initial (and significant investment) and support for at least a period.
It's shit from a United perspective but from a football perspective, trying to look at it as a neutral and be objective, we should be treated to a great season.
The coming season could be one of the most exciting we've had. 4 clubs who will all feel they can challenge for the title, 7 or 8 clubs who will feel they can finish in the top 6 and even push for top 4 as well.
I think a large part of this argument comes from people who just a bit jealous to be honest. If we spent £300 million in a window and brought in N'didi and Haaland to go with Sancho and Varane, I don't imagine many of our fans would be kicking off over concern about ruining football. "But we make our own money", no club can hope to get remotely close to the top and earn the revenie necessary to be self funded unless they get an injection. The gap is just way too big. Burnley simply won't reach anywhere close to our revenues etc without an initial (and significant investment) and support for at least a period.
It's shit from a United perspective but from a football perspective, trying to look at it as a neutral and be objective, we should be treated to a great season.
To highlight your point.
Serie A: Juventus 36 titles.
Eredivisie: Ajax 35 titles.
Primeira Liga: Benfica 37 titles.
Bundesliga: Bayern 30 titles.
La Liga : Real Madrid 34 titles.
Premier League: Manchester United 13 titles.(out of 29)
Ligue 1: Saint Etienne 10 titles.
In the PL they've caused a massive improvement to, say, twenty years ago, when there was really only one or two clubs who were ever in the running for the title.
Look at the most boring leagues: Serie A and Bundesliga, with 9 out of 10 wins for Juve/Bayern in the last decade. They could do with some competition, I would say.
Preferably these super clubs don't get their money from gruesome state governments, but then again, is a Chinese owner so much better?
Look at the most boring leagues: Serie A and Bundesliga, with 9 out of 10 wins for Juve/Bayern in the last decade. They could do with some competition, I would say.
Preferably these super clubs don't get their money from gruesome state governments, but then again, is a Chinese owner so much better?
In a world where anyone really gave a feck about the League Cup this might indeed be an issue..
The point is, very few clubs (or the fans, for that matter) want actual parity. United fans moaning on here much preferred the days when United could spend a £28 million British record fee on Juan Veron and have him sitting on the bench, whilst Arsenal, as nearest challenger had a club record of less than half. That was the position pre-Abramovich and it'd be the same now but for investment by various rich owners of various clubs.
What many actually want is someone to stop City and PSG doing what United did for years in outspending rivals. They can hide behind "it's for the good of the game" but that's rubbish.
The football you refer to still exists outside of the top leagues, certainly in England, below the Championship. I suspect very few of the people seemingly so disenchanted with the big spenders will venture down to their local club although i suspect they'd be welcomed with open arms.
The Bundesliga doesn't have oil clubs and most of their clubs are run in a sustainable, self-sufficient way.
And the biggest club absolutely dominates it, maintaining a seemingly unbreakable stranglehold over the entire competition. One might even say that, were it allowed, a second Bayern rising up via massive outside investment might do some good for the competitiveness of the league.
So yeah, as others said, it's massive financial disparity that is ruining football, not oil money per se. Bayern dominating Germany isn't any less detrimental to football than PSG dominating France.
And the biggest club absolutely dominates it, maintaining a seemingly unbreakable stranglehold over the entire competition. One might even say that, were it allowed, a second Bayern rising up via massive outside investment might do some good for the competitiveness of the league.
So yeah, as others said, it's massive financial disparity that is ruining football, not oil money per se. Bayern dominating Germany isn't any less detrimental to football than PSG dominating France.
No but anyone who thinks it isn't trending in that way is completely delusional. PSG and City are only going to get worse. COVID should have taught everyone this. Real clubs had to operate differently while these clubs+Chelsea just spent more money. Just because financial disparity existed 20 years ago, doesn't make it okay now. Would you rather european football evolve in a more level playing field or just continue to get worse? Personally not a fan of all the best players in the world going to some random league I don't care about to play for some team that barely existed before some shitty human beings wanted to chance perception about themselves.
That's not the point though is it. While City can rest their best 10/11 players in the league cup and still get to the latter stages with ease, other teams generally play more of their starters, denying them the freshness afforded to City's. This leads to a fit and fresh City team in the next league game.
You do realise this year United has the highest net spend in Europe right?
I’m not bothered about City spending whatever they want on players, I mean Grealish is no better than what they already have, if they want to spend a Billion building a team I say let them do it as They aren’t unbeatable as shown by spurs at the weekend.
as for PSG they can do whatever they want as they are completely irrelevant and always will be, if a player wants to go there you know it’s pure greed as the footballing side offers nothing, literally nobody cares about the french league.
as for PSG they can do whatever they want as they are completely irrelevant and always will be, if a player wants to go there you know it’s pure greed as the footballing side offers nothing, literally nobody cares about the french league.
They sure have. Just because there were financial disparities in football beforehand doesn’t mean it’s hypocritical to call out these cancerous clubs for making said disparities infinitely worse.
This is the type of attitude that ruins football, no actual respect for other leagues, teams or fans.
Yes teams won league Cup mostly had the best squad in the league nowadays. For FA Cup most teams play their best teams as much as they could so why it's not dominated like league cups like city did in recent times some thing like 6 titles in 8 years.
Of course they have, decent authentic clubs like United, Bayern and (hate to say it) Liverpool are doing their bit to stave them off but they will eventually cheapen the sport beyond recognition.
It's why I loathe 'clubs' like City and PSG in particular. Would much rather be competing with legit authentic clubs steeped in tradition who have earned it the hard way.
Anybody watching PSG just to see Messi and the 'petrol globe trotters' they've put together over there destroy bang average teams in a farmers league need to realise that isn't football.
It's why I loathe 'clubs' like City and PSG in particular. Would much rather be competing with legit authentic clubs steeped in tradition who have earned it the hard way.
Anybody watching PSG just to see Messi and the 'petrol globe trotters' they've put together over there destroy bang average teams in a farmers league need to realise that isn't football.
Calling a league a farmers league is significantly less football.
Yeah alright, bit disrespectful, but that wasn't my point. It's a lesser competitive league with what will be one of the most expensively assembled (at least in wages) teams in history, all in the face of FFP which has truly become a joke because of teams like PSG and City.
I actually feel for teams in Ligue 1 and hope they upset the applecart again by denying PSG another title this season. Surely Poch can't feck up this time, maybe once they have Ronaldo, Pogba and the rest of the goon squad from Space Jam they will finally win the CL.
It was exactly your point, you have no respect for other clubs or fans. Also you don't feel for teams in Ligue 1, you don't care nor knows the reality of the league, you don't care about the fact that the concern for LIgue 1 is money from other leagues, that Ligue 1 players leave the league mainly to the PL because they will earn a lot more money even if it's to a mid to lower table team. And when the league was more competitive none of you were watching it and the league being competitive didn't help create more consistent top teams, on the contrary.
If PSG wasn't around the only difference would be that Ligue 1 wouldn't have a competitive CL caliber team and no superstars. Players would still leave for more money and most likely at a higher rate.
I'm sorry pal, that isn't how it works, I tell you the point I was making not the other way around.
If the players want to leave and nobody wants to watch it then what does that tell you? It's a shite league. Who's faults that? Mine? Because I called a spade a spade.
But that's not the point you were making, I've hijacked your point now, and I'll tell you what point you were making. Eh Rouve?
My point was regarding who in their right minds wants to watch Messi and co tear apart a league that struggled to compete with PSG before their arrival. It's like a cat toying with a mouse. But go on, tell me what I really meant.
Yes, after not spending much money last year. If COVID was as influential as last year United wouldn't have spent as much either. Also you're making a completely flawed argument so you're being dishonest or just completely delusional. United's entire structure exists to make money and grow as a business. That's literally why fans hate the Glazers as much as they do. The club will NEVER spend money that it hasn't brought in through commercial revenue. Clubs like City and PSG literally sign fake sponsorship deals to circumvent this in order to spend money.
Also net spend is irrelevant when the clubs I've mentioned have literally been caught paying under the table.
I was going to say. If only there was a thread which was already pages long discussing the topic..
@Schmeichel's Cartwheel
You can‘t stop investors like that taking control of football clubs, it is to political, to big. But what‘s needed is a more strict regulation in the leagues they are competing in. Like FFP+ which actually works. Like a total wage cap for the squad. A balance in buys (money spent on players) and sales (money received from player sales). Buying based on yearly publicly announced financial results.
Here is the problem, you already said that you were being disrespectful, you also already told me that you weren't proud of using it in the past. There is no point pretending that you have respect for teams or fans when you repeatedly show disrespect.
And your point is interesting, you do realize that leagues around Europe aren't all that competitive and that Ligue 1 is one of the leagues that has had the most winners in the last decade? But most importantly most football fans wherever they are watch football games, they don't watch a league table, they like to watch actual games. Ligue 1 followers want to see how someone like Gouiri or David will play next week, they want to see the likes of Camavinga,Tchouaméni and Caqueret, they want to see their team perform well, their players develop and maybe fulfill their potential and they are also happy to see Messi, Neymar or Mbappé live in their local town.
That's Football at all levels. Football fans like football games and they like to watch good players, not all football fans lose interest because their team isn't successful, not all football fans gained interest because their team was successful. Many people just love football regardless of the level of competitivity.
well it is the truth, Messi will bring more viewers/media attention to PSG games this season I’m sure but generally apart from when PSG progress to knockout stages in the champions league nobody outside France really cares about them up until that point.
I wasn’t directing anything towards the fans as I know many french clubs have great, loyal support and as for players there’s obviously a lot of talented youngsters in the french league too which is brilliant It’s just a shame they all want to leave as soon as possible and move to Spain, Italy, England.
Real Madrid did all of this around 12 years ago, they literally bought all star players from around European clubs, I have no idea why are people just insisting City and PSG are doing it like no one has before. This is probably bit worse, but not that much, I am pretty sure Real Madrid was breaking all kind of records back then, and they were hardly earning big money themselves back then, they had problems reaching quarterfinals of CL for 6-7 years if I remember well.
Its not what has happened so far that is the biggest concern. Its what is likely to happen in the future. Clubs have been stretching themselves trying to keep pace, and there is a sense the state funded clubs have many more gears they can go through if that is what is required in order to achieve what they want to achieve.
Ruined football though? No. Its always been dominated by the few.
Ruined football though? No. Its always been dominated by the few.
I agree. There is certainly a large element of hypocrisy present within certain fans. Let's be honest, we blow 99% of clubs out of the water ourselves, regardless of where the funds are coming from.
You are right in that lower leagues do have some degree of equality, but it is on a lower level. When I go to watch a local team I'm not necessarily seeing the quality of football I enjoy at the higher levels, or at least, it is quite different. I'm certainly not seeing the best players. In a very idealistic world I would be able to see top level football where it's not just about the same faces every year, but it's not likely.
But you do realize that these talented players leave for money? They leave for the same reason some players join PSG, more money and titles but mainly more money. An other thing that is very strange, a footballer shouldn't care about whether casual fans are going to watch him on TV or not, he shouldn't choose his destination based on that, I have seen many people make that suggestion regarding Messi and Neymar and it makes no sense to me. If we take PSG as an example, Messi will play infront of a crowd that loves the club, ultras that care about the club and have done it regardless of their level and he will earn a lot of money, those are real tangible things. If I ever hear a player talk about how he joined a club because x amount of people watch them on TV, it will be the death of Football as I know it, that's the most impersonal thing you could think outside of choosing the club with most Twitter followers.
But true talk that City have literally ruined the League cup. We could expect to see a few promising youth players in the past but that's a dead era since they have a second team that could take a CL place. No club run like an actual business with books to balance can afford to keep up.
I conceded my choice of words was harsh, that doesn't mean you can totally make up what you think my point was, when the crux of my point was about competitiveness between PSG and the others in the league... a gap that's become a chasm this transfer window.
I won't pay to watch Messi and the Harlem globe trotters at PSG hammer clubs in the French league the same way I wouldn't pay to watch Mike Tyson fight Mr Bean. That's my point.
I do in fact have a modicum of respect for teams in a league trying to overcome a state backed sports-washing club like PSG, a team that will hoover up 99% of trophies in said league. I would loathe taking part in a league that is pretty much decided before a ball is kicked (unless Poch is in town.) Does it keep me up at night? No it doesn't.
Do I think the standard in French football is much lower than you would expect from a nation with a conveyor belt of top level talent? Yes. I think it's probably the lowest standard of the top European leagues. Doesn't mean it's not competitive if the teams are all the same standard with the exception of one. They are competitively shite. Again I'm being harsh now but you've poked the bear
PSG aren't the main problem there in terms of the standard being lower than you expect. It's other richer leagues poaching young french players all the time, creating greater instability than in the leagues rated above.I conceded my choice of words was harsh, that doesn't mean you can totally make up what you think my point was, when the crux of my point was about competitiveness between PSG and the others in the league... a gap that's become a chasm this transfer window.
I won't pay to watch Messi and the Harlem globe trotters at PSG hammer clubs in the French league the same way I wouldn't pay to watch Mike Tyson fight Mr Bean. That's my point.
I do in fact have a modicum of respect for teams in a league trying to overcome a state backed sports-washing club like PSG, a team that will hoover up 99% of trophies in said league. I would loathe taking part in a league that is pretty much decided before a ball is kicked (unless Poch is in town.) Does it keep me up at night? No it doesn't.
Do I think the standard in French football is much lower than you would expect from a nation with a conveyor belt of top level talent? Yes. I think it's probably the lowest standard of the top European leagues. Doesn't mean it's not competitive if the teams are all the same standard with the exception of one. They are competitively shite. Again I'm being harsh now but you've poked the bear
This whole discussion is also really euro-centric. i don't think many South American football fans that lament the significant decline in their best leagues and constant poaching of talent by often less talented, richer European countries will be thinking it's suddenly PSG or City that have been the cause.
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That's absolutely true, although it has lots going for it as a matchday experience and I'd recommend it to anyone.
For me, football has never been a level playing field. Historically, a handful of sides have dominated either through enjoying political favour, or in more recent years from having more money. In the PL at least, I personally think that as a fan, the product is the best it's ever been, certainly since I've been watching it.
People need to put the rose tinted specs away, because the idea that the PL was better when it was United and one other at the top (with United either winning, or spending a fortune the next year to get the title back), was better either as a spectacle, or for football (whatever that might mean) just doesn't stand up to scrutiny in my opinion.
Fine by me.
However, you didn't get my point. It's not the owners that are problematic.
The issue will always remain the governing bodies. Just apply the rules. Look at what's happening to Barca. Tried to weasel their way out of the salary cap, by directly and indirectly threatning the league. But the league stuck to their guns, and now out Barca are desperately sorting their house out.
Unfortunately the governing bodies - domestic and European - have shown themselves to be impotent. Even in the case of Super League it was the pressure from the fans that resulted into the clubs rejecting the idea. Not the governing bodies.
City and PSG still haven’t won the CL. PSG didn’t win their league last season. City only won the league with 86pts last season, where Liverpool won it with 99pts the season before.
The level of domination the oil clubs have achieved over everyone else seems more theoretical than actual, with ‘effectively-unlimited spending’ only seeming to gain an incremental advantage over the ‘still-huge-but-not-unlimited spending’ of the traditional big clubs. There are enough great players that even when the oil clubs have had their pick of the bunch, those left over are still close enough in quality for at least a few more clubs to remain competitive with them.
Bundesliga, ironically, seems like the deadest major league in terms of one club being totally dominant.
The level of domination the oil clubs have achieved over everyone else seems more theoretical than actual, with ‘effectively-unlimited spending’ only seeming to gain an incremental advantage over the ‘still-huge-but-not-unlimited spending’ of the traditional big clubs. There are enough great players that even when the oil clubs have had their pick of the bunch, those left over are still close enough in quality for at least a few more clubs to remain competitive with them.
Bundesliga, ironically, seems like the deadest major league in terms of one club being totally dominant.
A country should never be able to own a private team. It's a quick way to destroy a league. I mean the government of Canada could just buy Swansea and give them unlimited funds because why not, £300M a year is nothing compared to how much tax payer money comes in.
Unless ffp is strict which it never will be
Unless ffp is strict which it never will be
How about putting in some transfer fee caps and wage caps. Take severe action if clubs violate (pay players secretly). Then have release clauses in contracts so players can move if they want to.
Also cap agent fee.
Also cap agent fee.