Have the United States and the U.K. become too politically divided to govern?

[Raees]

Have we got to the point where the population of these nations which were the benchmarks for democracy are so at odds with each other that their population seems to contain different species of human which in essence are at civil war with each other?

Is the US too big to govern and too much of a straight split in terms of philosophies to be governable and keep everyone happy at the same time? Problem is that the liberal parts of the US seem to be on opposite coasts with a large swathe in the middle being republican.

U.K. would be a lot harder to split into separate nations if we were talking about just England but I guess Wales, Ireland and Scotland are well placed to go their own way if politically they were at total odds with what’s going on in England.

I think with England as crazy as the conservatives can get - you’d back them to not incite violence if they were out of power or in power (well unless Boris or JRM got into number 10) but the US - Jesus I don’t know how anyone can live there and feel safe in the current political climate.

Is this just a storm in a tea cup phase or are recent times exposing just how impossible it is to maintain a ‘nation’ of people with very different values and outlooks in life.

 

[CA_vampire]

No.

It may seem so in twitter or facebook, but actually it's a very thin slice of the population that is actively involved in politics or discussions about politics. The majority of the population doesn't even vote. And from those that do vote, few belong to the extremes.

 

[hobbers]

Small slices of angry idiots on twitter are hardly representative of the political landscape of the US or UK. The majority opinion on politics could still be summed up as "meh".

 

[Massive Spanner]

The only problem with the UK is that you're run by fecking idiots, and it all started with Pig-fecker Cameron. Giving the public a vote on whether to leave the EU is one of the most idiotic decisions ever by a leader.

 

[Honest John]

Social media has meant that minorities have a massively disproportionate loud voice.

However, social media can speed up events that may have otherwise taken decades to manifest - the Arab Spring being an example.

 

[sun_tzu]

brexit aside I think the UK has a bigger issue with political apathy than with division
the USA is a mess - I mean if trump was to loose the next election and it was close could you see him telling supporters to form free and organised militias to prevent the "lyin dems" from stealing power... and "thank god the reps protected the 2nd amendment rights so the good people of america can fight the dems"... i dread to think how bad that place could go

 

[Andrew~]

I don’t think the UK is divided at all - it’s just that we’ve had such a long period of political non-movement that anything that deviates from that concensus seems crazy.

In the case of the US, I think they have long running cultural issues that could potentially lead to violence but compare this to the 60s-70s there and it hasn’t got that bad... yet.

Brexit isn’t as big a deal as some people make it out to be, people are more bothered about what it says about Britain as a country than the tangible effects. The literal culture war going on in the US is on a whole other level though.

 

[Smores]

Not in the UK no, the right wing are dying off with every generation. They'll become more moderate over time as they scrape for votes.

 

[Adisa]

Disagree with people on about small slices on twitter etc.
The American Congress is a reflection of the country.
Politics has become about identity. Whether we like it or not, that's the truth.
I can tell a huge deal about you, and your way of thinking just by finding out the party you support.
How do you compromise on identity?
How do you compromise on Gay rights?
Similar with the US, the UK is heading in the same direction.
There are groups that feel things were much better in the past and would like to take us back into the 20th century. When the UK had an empire, when Blacks knew their place etc.
The UK for a while has been able to avoid this debates because for the past couple of decades both main parties have been fairly middle of the line centrist. Much to many's dismay. Brexit is the first major issue that has come up and the country is literally ungovernable.
America seems to be at a point of no return for reasons I mentioned earlier. Both groups feel the opposing party is a literal threat to the other's way of living.
As a Democrat, I cannot afford to accommodate a party I feel is a threat to my environment, LGBT community and minorities in general.
As a Republican, I cannot afford to accommodate a party I feel is a threat to my right to bear arms, wants to force me to serve homosexuals, and is a threat to my religion.
The more people get politically active the worse it is going to get.
Politics imo has become about winning and personally I don't see any choice but to fight the right at every turn. They are desperate to turn the clock back and we must never allow them.

 

[Barca84]

No.

It may seem so in twitter or facebook, but actually it's a very thin slice of the population that is actively involved in politics or discussions about politics. The majority of the population doesn't even vote. And from those that do vote, few belong to the extremes.

brexit aside I think the UK has a bigger issue with political apathy than with division

This is completely incorrect regarding the UK.

72.21% turnout for the EU referendum

General election turnouts consistently above 70% for the majority of the last century and just under that in 2017..

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8060#fullreport

 

[sun_tzu]

This is completely incorrect regarding the UK.

72.21% turnout for the EU referendum

General election turnouts consistently above 70% for the majority of the last century and just under that in 2017..

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8060#fullreport

last cetury yes its been over 70%

We have not hit 70% in the last 5 elections with one as low as 59.4%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_general_elections

the last 5 elections (since the turn of the century) average turnout 64.14%

the 5 elections before that 74.62%

the only age groups with turnout over 70% has been the over 50's

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election/

so yeah I think the stats there are pretty incicative of a growing apathy.

for comparison over 85% turnout in belgium, over 70% in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Italy.

Perhaps a PR system would help us in this regard and also make politics in general a bit more collaberative and positive rather than the adversarial first past the post both us and America employ

 

[AltiUn]

Not in the UK no, the right wing are dying off with every generation. They'll become more moderate over time as they scrape for votes.

I've noticed that people my age tend to have left-leaning views that definitely align with Labour, yet a lot never end up voting. In my extended friendship group there isn't a single a single one who identifies as conservative yet less than half can ever be bothered to vote. Even though conservatism is a little less prevalent in the younger age groups it won't make a difference until we can convince those generations to actually get out there and vote.

 

[Adisa]

last cetury yes its been over 70%

We have not hit 70% in the last 5 elections with one as low as 59.4%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_general_elections

the last 5 elections (since the turn of the century) average turnout 64.14%

the 5 elections before that 74.62%

the only age groups with turnout over 70% has been the over 50's

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election/

so yeah I think the stats there are pretty incicative of a growing apathy.

What percentage of people under 40 consider themselves as conservative in both US and the UK?
I feel this number is underestimated.
Imo, there is this myth that if every American voted, the Dems would always win. From the documentaries I've seen, there tons of people in middle America, that live in those small towns. They are as conservative as feck but never vote .

 

[Smores]

I've noticed that people my age tend to have left-leaning views that definitely align with Labour, yet a lot never end up voting. In my extended friendship group there isn't a single a single one who identifies as conservative yet less than half can ever be bothered to vote. Even though conservatism is a little less prevalent in the younger age groups it won't make a difference until we can convince those generations to actually get out there and vote.

I noticed some of my apathetic friends were more interested by Corbyn and voted for the first time but that doesn't seem to be much of a trend.

The only way you're going to get significant numbers is to introduce e-voting but that won't be done by a Tory government

 

[Adisa]

I've noticed that people my age tend to have left-leaning views that definitely align with Labour, yet a lot never end up voting. In my extended friendship group there isn't a single a single one who identifies as conservative yet less than half can ever be bothered to vote. Even though conservatism is a little less prevalent in the younger age groups it won't make a difference until we can convince those generations to actually get out there and vote.

I don't think there is anything that can be done. Young people just don't care about that stuff.
Up until recently when I started professional work, I was seen as weird among my group of friends for watching the news every day.

 

[sun_tzu]

What percentage of people under 40 consider themselves as conservative in both US and the UK?
I feel this number is underestimated.
Imo, there is this myth that if every American voted, the Dems would always win. From the documentaries I've seen, there tons of people in middle America, that live in those small towns. They are as conservative as feck but never vote .

just from the last uk election we can see the following (based on % of people who voted either conservative or UKIP)
18-19 around 20%
20-24 around 23%
25-29 around 24%
30-30 around 30%
40-40 around 40%
50+ over 50%
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election/
I do think your right in saying a signigifant % of those that dont vote would arguably lean more to the traditional right wing spectrum

that said polling in the UK often underestimates the conservative vote in what is often termed the "shy conservative" effect - i.e. they might tell a pollster they are undecided but in truth they lean to voting conservative

 

[sun_tzu]

The only way you're going to get significant numbers is to introduce e-voting but that won't be done by a Tory government

I am a big advocate of that in combination with a fine for not voting and also the addition of "none of the above candidates represent my views"
and once parties see what a big % of people feel unrepresented with compulsary voting they will actually have to engage with that segment of society rather than simply trying to pinch a few % of people who vote already who are seen as floating voters

 

[Raees]

I've noticed that people my age tend to have left-leaning views that definitely align with Labour, yet a lot never end up voting. In my extended friendship group there isn't a single a single one who identifies as conservative yet less than half can ever be bothered to vote. Even though conservatism is a little less prevalent in the younger age groups it won't make a difference until we can convince those generations to actually get out there and vote.

At my previous firm, I was surrounded by conservative voters (and they were aged 20-25). Many of them have been brought up in conservative households and are very 'corporate' and despite being dismayed by Brexit... they weren't left leaning at all - so I wouldn't assume all young people are left leaning. Those who work in elite professional circles are most likely going to follow in their parents foot steps.

 

[CA_vampire]

In the USA, Presidential elections have 55% participation and midterm elections only 40%. Midterm elections (in two weeks) are very important since all the House seats are up.

Also, (in all countries) many families always vote for the same party as a tradition, no matter who the candidate is. Most of those people are not fanatics, they are not polarized, they don't even have strong political opinions, they just have a family "tradition".

The fanatics are a small percentage, but they make a lot of noise. Unfortunately, Trump has enabled a lot of idiots and racists to openly voice their excrement. Social media allow this, 20 years ago the newspapers would never publish any of that.

 

[Smores]

I am a big advocate of that in combination with a fine for not voting and also the addition of "none of the above candidates represent my views"
and once parties see what a big % of people feel unrepresented with compulsary voting they will actually have to engage with that segment of society rather than simply trying to pinch a few % of people who vote already who are seen as floating voters

Obviously one downside of that is when 80% do the protest vote and our new party gets elected with 8% of the vote

 

[Smores]

At my previous firm, I was surrounded by conservative voters (and they were aged 20-25). Many of them have been brought up in conservative households and are very 'corporate' and despite being dismayed by Brexit... they weren't left leaning at all - so I wouldn't assume all young people are left leaning. Those who work in elite professional circles are most likely going to follow in their parents foot steps.

Oddly enough in those circles I've tended to notice it depends on the size of their inheritance

 

[Raees]

Obviously one downside of that is when 80% do the protest vote and our new party gets elected with 8% of the vote

In that case, they should re-hold election but ban the previous nominees from standing for election again.

 

[Florida Man]

Most people behave in public but are a different creature when online. My dad is a perfect example. Well liked and charming when meeting in person but acts like a fecking moron on Facebook where literally 100% of his posts in the past year have been anti Democrat/Obama/Hillary. Another good friend of mine is pretty chill in person but online, he looks like someone who'd join a militia and try to shoot at politicians.

With many obvious exceptions, life is pretty okay for most people, and with no desperation. Wait till more people start going broke, hungry, disenfranchised as the division portrayed in media continues. Then we'll start seeing more unrest. It only takes a few idiots to tip things over in that case.

 

[sun_tzu]

Obviously one downside of that is when 80% do the protest vote and our new party gets elected with 8% of the vote

perhaps... but even now we had 68.7% turnout last time with the conservatives getting 36.95% of the vote... so getting elected with around 25% of the population voting for them...
personally id favour a move to PR so that you always have to have 50% of the votes cast to form a coalition but our current system is outdated and something needs to change to stop the apathy spreading

 

[Barca84]

last cetury yes its been over 70%

We have not hit 70% in the last 5 elections with one as low as 59.4%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_general_elections

the last 5 elections (since the turn of the century) average turnout 64.14%

the 5 elections before that 74.62%

the only age groups with turnout over 70% has been the over 50's

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election/

so yeah I think the stats there are pretty incicative of a growing apathy.

for comparison over 85% turnout in belgium, over 70% in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Italy.

Perhaps a PR system would help us in this regard and also make politics in general a bit more collaberative and positive rather than the adversarial first past the post both us and America employ

Agree re your last point but re apathy, and from my link, Turnout at the 2017 General Election was 68.8% and was the fourth successive election where turnout increased. Current trend is upwards.

 

[11101]

I completely disagree that there is a problem with political apathy in the UK. I've never seen the two sides so aggressive towards each other. I only have to get some of my younger friends started on Corbyn, or my parents' friends on Brexit, and I'm stuck there for hours.

I really do think it's because life is so easy in the UK right now. Look to decades past.

1910s - World War 1
1920s - recovery from WW1 and increasing economic struggles
1930s - Great Depression and the build up to war
1940s - World War 2
1950s - recovery from WW2 and beginning of the Cold War
1960s - the world on the brink of nuclear war
1970s - the oil crisis and the country crippled by union action
1980s - breaking of the unions and the end of the Cold War
1990s - European Union is created, countries are formed and half of Europe comes out from behind the Iron Curtain
2000s - September 11th

With the possible exception of the 2008 crash, there has been nothing in recent years to occupy people's minds. It's been getting easier since the 90s. There is no real threat to our way of life anymore and I think everyone is just trying to find something to identify with and feel they are a part of.

 

[MadMike]

@Raees you are focusing on America and US but if you see the divisions emergening in all of Europe you’ll realise it’s not an isolated phenomenon. In Italy, France, Austria and Germany politics have started to become bitterly divisive. Poland and Hungary have turned quite to the right already.

There’s multitudes of issues that are surfacing but immigration is at core of a lot of them. From building a wall, to Brexit to Le Pen’s rise to the massive losses and potential fall of Merkel. It’s at the heart of what’s driving conservativism and what makes the right more appealing to the previously middle ground people.

I think the governments, in Europe at least, heavily underestimated the amount of immigration that would happen 90s onwards and also how the conservative part of the populace would receive eventually receive it. They also lacked any semblance of control over it once the realised it was becoming divisive. Add in the financial crisis of 2008, the austerity that followed, the “lost decade” and you have a highly potent mix.

Some parts of the population have become highly progressive in that period while others have regressed into conservativism. Some people seem to think the majority is still in middle and is is simply silent. That nothing’s changed in that way and it’s just the Chihuahua effect of rather noisy but small extremes. I think these people got blinkers on and haven’t realised that the middle has actually shrunk and eroded as people side with either progressive or conservative ideologies.

 

[Raees]

@Raees you are focusing on America and US but if you see the divisions emergening in all of Europe you’ll realise it’s not an isolated phenomenon. In Italy, France, Austria and Germany politics have started to become bitterly divisive. Poland and Hungary have turned quite to the right already.

There’s multitudes of issues that are surfacing but immigration is at core of a lot of them. From building a wall, to Brexit to Le Pen’s rise to the massive losses and potential fall of Merkel. It’s at the heart of what’s driving conservativism and what makes the right more appealing to the previously middle ground people.

I think the governments, in Europe at least, heavily underestimated the amount of immigration that would happen 90s onwards and also how the conservative part of the populace would receive eventually receive it. They also lacked any semblance of control over it once the realised it was becoming divisive. Add in the financial crisis of 2008, the austerity that followed, the “lost decade” and you have a highly potent mix.

Some parts of the population have become highly progressive in that period while others have regressed into conservativism. Some people seem to think the majority is still in middle and is is simply silent. That nothing’s changed in that way and it’s just the Chihuahua effect of rather noisy but small extremes. I think these people got blinkers on and haven’t realised that the middle has actually shrunk and eroded as people side with either progressive or conservative ideologies.

Agree with all that - I thought I'd focus on the Anglo angle first as most of us I think have better knowledge and familiarity with the political parties/population of these two nations, but yes - I see it as a growing issue on an international scale. Populism is a global phenomenon.

 

[Andrew~]

There are groups that feel things were much better in the past and would like to take us back into the 20th century. When the UK had an empire, when Blacks knew their place etc.

Politics imo has become about winning and personally I don't see any choice but to fight the right at every turn. They are desperate to turn the clock back and we must never allow them.

And this is exactly the problem.

 

[Beachryan]

The only problem with the UK is that you're run by fecking idiots, and it all started with Pig-fecker Cameron. Giving the public a vote on whether to leave the EU is one of the most idiotic decisions ever by a leader.

Didn't the 'journalist' that printed that accusation admit to no fact checking or corroboration of any kind? Just pointing out the media are the real facilitators of this divide.

Worse in the states, where the media just constantly repeat whatever lie Trump says on an hourly basis.

Can't have an informed electorate anymore

 

[Adisa]

And this is exactly the problem.

The Republicans in America would like to repeal Roe v Wade, to repeal Gay marriage.
How can we not fight them?.
Politics in majority of the 20th century was fought, Marjory along economic lines.
You either wanted more government spending, higher taxes or not etc.
Politics is now much more than that and the stakes are now much higher imo.
The existence of entire groups is at stake.
Just look at Trump's plan to redefine what it means to be transgender? Look at Stephen Miller's proposal about legal immigrants? Look at how the Conservative party are systematically destroying the NHS? Look at how the Home Office have been deporting Britons in secret?
The earlier the left realise they're in a war, the better.

 

[Sweet Square]

I don’t think the UK is divided at all - it’s just that we’ve had such a long period of political non-movement that anything that deviates from that concensus seems crazy..

Pretty much this.

 

[Sweet Square]

With the possible exception of the 2008 crash, there has been nothing in recent years to occupy people's minds. It's been getting easier since the 90s. There is no real threat to our way of life anymore and I think everyone is just trying to find something to identify with and feel they are a part of.

 

[ErranMorad]

Actually no. The positive I see from the Trump's clusterfeck in America is that we get a more aware and politically engaged general population. For far too long people's apathy has led to the minority view rule over the majority. I see it changing as people start to see direct affects of it on their daily lives. A majority of the country believes in healthcare, common sense gun laws, healthy union representations, reducing the cost of education, abortion, LGBTQ rights etc. etc.. With time I see the people holding those views take control and again condemn the divisive forces to insignificance.

Anyway, the general population is not "too divided". Contrary to what the internet or the news will have yo believe, the republicans and the democrats are not at each others throats in daily life. Most people are busy earning a living and taking care of their families. There are always a 20%-25% of radical elements anywhere, but it's 75%-8o% who really matter, and they are good people despite their differences.

 

[Eboue]

60 years ago the united states was basically an apartheid state...

 

[Andrew~]

The Republicans in America would like to repeal Roe v Wade, to repeal Gay marriage.
How can we not fight them?.
Politics in majority of the 20th century was fought, Marjory along economic lines.
You either wanted more government spending, higher taxes or not etc.
Politics is now much more than that and the stakes are now much higher imo.
The existence of entire groups is at stake.
Just look at Trump's plan to redefine what it means to be transgender? Look at Stephen Miller's proposal about legal immigrants? Look at how the Conservative party are systematically destroying the NHS? Look at how the Home Office have been deporting Britons in secret?
The earlier the left realise they're in a war, the better.

You’re projecting your desires onto the world: there is no war. Politics in the 20th century was not fought on economic grounds apart from the last 20 years. Mostly it was about your attitude towards war (real war, not figurative war) and race for the US. The UK hasn’t changed politically apart from the aberration that was Thatcher at all: there’s usually a rough concensus.

I think you guys need to chill out, have a wank, pick up a history book for a bit. Cos if you think 2-3% adjustments on the NHS budget is war then you’ve quite frankly lost it.

 

[2cents]

My whole life all I heard was "there's no real choice, all the major parties are the same." Now it seems there are genuinely distinct options on the board, and many people are understandably freaking out a bit. Seems when those complaints about a lack of choice were made, those complaining were only bemoaning the absence of the option they favoured, and didn't really figure that real diversity in politics would also incorporate political options that they abhor.

 

[Adisa]

You’re projecting your desires onto the world: there is no war. Politics in the 20th century was not fought on economic grounds apart from the last 20 years. Mostly it was about your attitude towards war (real war, not figurative war) and race for the US. The UK hasn’t changed politically apart from the aberration that was Thatcher at all: there’s usually a rough concensus.

I think you guys need to chill out, have a wank, pick up a history book for a bit. Cos if you think 2-3% adjustments on the NHS budget is war then you’ve quite frankly lost it.

Of course I don't mean a real war. If you are faced with the other side who is determined to entrench itself in more and more conservative ideals as a response to an ever progressing liberal world, carrying on compromising will not get you anywhere.
As for the NHS, the real decline is more than 3%.
And lastly, I don't need a wank.

 

[Andrew~]

Of course I don't mean a real war. If you are faced with the other side who is determined to entrench itself in more and more conservative ideals as a response to an ever progressing liberal world, carrying on compromising will not get you anywhere.
As for the NHS, the real decline is more than 3%.
And lastly, I don't need a wank.

I don’t think you have a choice but to compromise. Democracy is a social decision-making mechanism that more or less necessitates that people compromise. If you want an example of what happens when it fails: see Spain 1900-1960.

 

[Adisa]

Actually no. The positive I see from the Trump's clusterfeck in America is that we get a more aware and politically engaged general population. For far too long people's apathy has led to the minority view rule over the majority. I see it changing as people start to see direct affects of it on their daily lives. A majority of the country believes in healthcare, common sense gun laws, healthy union representations, reducing the cost of education, abortion, LGBTQ rights etc. etc.. With time I see the people holding those views take control and again condemn the divisive forces to insignificance.

Anyway, the general population is not "too divided". Contrary to what the internet or the news will have yo believe, the republicans and the democrats are not at each others throats in daily life. Most people are busy earning a living and taking care of their families. There are always a 20%-25% of radical elements anywhere, but it's 75%-8o% who really matter, and they are good people despite their differences.

I agree that people are not at each others throats. I don't know much about America. I work in an investment bank so as you can imagine, I meet my fair share of Tories and we get along and discuss about politics just fine.
However, voters are deeply divided on the ballot box. And that's the crucial thing. I don't think the American Congress just randomly decided that they would no longer work together. It's because their voters are increasingly sharing nothing in common both politically and socially.