Bloody hell. I don't know if I should laugh or cry
Henderson should be our #1
- Thread starter gerdm07
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
De Gea is the best shot-stopper I've ever seen. Most of the premier league goalies are all going to be able to save most of the routine shots, they are mostly going to be able to distribute the ball fairly well, and it is small margins that separate them. But for those at the top, what separates an exceptional keeper from a world class one (in my view) is their ability to make saves that seem impossible when you see them in real time, like your brain has already ruled that the shot is a goal -- when suddenly it's not. You see the replay and somehow De Gea has contorted himself and gotten a fingertip or a toe to something that looked all but certain to score.
I don't think anyone makes as many of those types of saves as he does, and when they replay the saves, De Gea has good positioning to start with, so it's not that he was in a bad position and had to react to save his own mistake; he's generally great at positioning and still manages to make these insane saves. He is all quite good with his distribution and good with the ball at his feet.
Henderson is also a very good keeper but he's a rung or two below De Gea. Barthez, Howard, Carroll, were also good but not great (enough) keepers who made some great saves and were mostly well-liked. Even Howard was player of the season before being dropped, so I guess that speaks to people's preference for certain playing styles over others.
DeGea's form dipped but he has corrected whatever was affecting him and I think he's back to his best. His best is beyond what Henderson can do or will do, so DeGea stays #1.
I don't think anyone makes as many of those types of saves as he does, and when they replay the saves, De Gea has good positioning to start with, so it's not that he was in a bad position and had to react to save his own mistake; he's generally great at positioning and still manages to make these insane saves. He is all quite good with his distribution and good with the ball at his feet.
Henderson is also a very good keeper but he's a rung or two below De Gea. Barthez, Howard, Carroll, were also good but not great (enough) keepers who made some great saves and were mostly well-liked. Even Howard was player of the season before being dropped, so I guess that speaks to people's preference for certain playing styles over others.
DeGea's form dipped but he has corrected whatever was affecting him and I think he's back to his best. His best is beyond what Henderson can do or will do, so DeGea stays #1.
Who is the first-pick for the English national team again? Pickford is good shotstopper and a nutcase, Henderson is a nobody. Perhaps time to get a loan in the Championship to save his career. Right now there are probably no Premier League-clubs that would swap theirs for Henderson and really benefiting, if at all. Let’s stop pretending every youth player at United is great, from Elanga to Laird, odds are they will never play a lot in the Premier League, they’re most likely at Brandon Williams’ level. Where’s Blackett these days?
I know over the time they’ve both been in the team DeGea has probably had more clangers but to be honest I feel safe with DeGea and last game he was coming out, claiming things and taking control of his area. Something he certainly needs to build on.
However when I watch Henderson he looks like an accident waiting to happen so calamitous when he comes charging out. Like he is trying to do too much or is overly keen to be sweeper keeper. I just don’t have the trust or faith in him.
However when I watch Henderson he looks like an accident waiting to happen so calamitous when he comes charging out. Like he is trying to do too much or is overly keen to be sweeper keeper. I just don’t have the trust or faith in him.
For me Henderson is one of those traditional keepers that tend to get better with age and experience.
We are not really in the best state as a club to let him go through that - so we go for the most experienced one we already have in De Gea even if he will never be a more well rounded keeper like Henderson.
De gea has been in great form this season - but to me this is always when the rest of the team is playing shit.
When the rest of the outfield are playing well with high hopes - it's normally De Gea that looks like a dissapointment in the way he plays.
For me it just says alot. That De Gea is great when we don't have the control of the match and we need a reactive goalkeeper - whilst when we do have control of the match more often than not- we need a more proactive one.
Henderson is a great 2nd choice keeper and we are lucky to have such a great level as our 2nd choice.
I personally think if he keeps developing he will be #1 for a long time. During periods last year I felt the time had come for him to take over due to DeGea being below standard but this season David has gone back near his top level.
The fact that we have been so bad defensively has made people think DeGea hasn’t been great but he has and he has our most MOTM this season.
I personally think if he keeps developing he will be #1 for a long time. During periods last year I felt the time had come for him to take over due to DeGea being below standard but this season David has gone back near his top level.
The fact that we have been so bad defensively has made people think DeGea hasn’t been great but he has and he has our most MOTM this season.
He shouldn't. He's the new Joe Hart. Ego so big, and so much self belief that others begin to believe they are actually good goalkeepers. You can fool a lot of people being incredibly confident.
As with Joe Hart, he managed to fool people for quite a few years but then got found out. The same will happen with Henderson. I maintained Hart was crap even when he was playing for City and England and it baffled me how he managed to get to that level being an average keeper. With Henderson, I rate him over Hart at the same age but still think Henderson is average and should be at a mid/bottom half of the prem team.
As with Joe Hart, he managed to fool people for quite a few years but then got found out. The same will happen with Henderson. I maintained Hart was crap even when he was playing for City and England and it baffled me how he managed to get to that level being an average keeper. With Henderson, I rate him over Hart at the same age but still think Henderson is average and should be at a mid/bottom half of the prem team.
The caf has some crazy posters nowadays. Ronaldo scores goals, ronaldo is the problem. De gea makes saves, de gea is the problem.
You don't know this for certain. Solskjaer himself seemed very undecided and it seems he was stringing Henderson along IMO.
De Gea was one of the earliest back to preseason training. He's been on a mission to keep his spot and he's responded to the Henderson challenge with aplomb
I feel Pickford has suffered the same fate.
Seems an appropriate place to put this…
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/we-will-never-win-the-league-with-de-gea-in-goal.436184/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/we-will-never-win-the-league-with-de-gea-in-goal.436184/
Can't help but feel that De Gea looks better this season because of our abysmal defending. He suffers a little bit when we're on the front foot and he has little to do for long stretches. He's certainly not making as much mistakes this season as he was the past 3 seasons.
Tbf even last season he didn't make as many glaring mistakes as the previous two, where he had periods of shots slipping through his hands and so on. He had largely cut out the howlers, he just more generally wasn't all that good.
But yes, generally I think it's fair to say that the more our performances require him to make saves the more opportunity he has to shine, because making saves is what he does best. Obviously that doesn't take away from the fact that he has been shining in that regard but if we're performing better as a team in terms of preventing chances then what we need from our goalkeeper shifts away from his biggest strength and towards weaker areas of his game.
I thought it was interesting that he said Rangnick had already emphasised that he needs to be ready to sweep long balls behind as we're going to play a high line. We've long said that was a weakness of his, so we'll see how he copes as the season goes on.
It's a fundamental case of people looking at Henderson and seeing half a dozen glaring weaknesses in his game and recognising he isn't good enough to be no.1 at a top club.
De Gea is weak coming for crosses and not the best with the ball at his feet. Henderson is equally weak on crosses and marginally better with the ball at his feet. Doesn't make up for the rest of his game. Can guarantee you Ralf will keep De Gea as his no.1 while he's performing as he has been, regardless of the system. His successor will as well, whenever he arrives.
Cant' blame him, his nick is De God after all
I’ve never understood the Pickford comparison, he’s literally nothing like him. If Hendo was black and from Ghana but played the exact same way would people say he’s like Pickford? No clearly not. If any keeper is like Pickford it’s Ramsdale who looks completely erratic and small in his net as well as prone to an error.
I think there’s a pretty sizeable portion of fans who made their minds up with Henderson pretty quickly without him really getting an opportunity but personally he’s been the better keeper of the two when he’s played over the last year. The defence feels more solid and he’s far better at pretty much every element of the game compared to De Gea except shot stopping which he’s still decent at.
I think there’s a pretty sizeable portion of fans who made their minds up with Henderson pretty quickly without him really getting an opportunity but personally he’s been the better keeper of the two when he’s played over the last year. The defence feels more solid and he’s far better at pretty much every element of the game compared to De Gea except shot stopping which he’s still decent at.
Then we won’t really make much progress as a team. De Gea has been a huge weakness for this side for years. He invites so much pressure on our defence by sticking to his line. I really feel for Maguire and Lindelof who take all the brunt of it when 90% of the errors are avoided by a decent keeper.
I kind of agree even the last game against Norwich his only one good save against Kabak that situation could have been prevented had he been braver and not got stuck on the line as usual but now the narrative is how he is back to his best but the truth is he still the keeper with major deficiencies whose presence would hold this team from evolving .
I can't believe there are people who think that DDG is the greatest weakness of our defense and not Maguire, Lindelof, Smalling, Rojo all the others who played after Rio and Vida retired, not to mention the fact that at certain point our FBs were actually Valencia and Young...
Exactly. Look I’m not doubting that he’s a top class shot stopper and fortunately for us he’s been back to his best in that department this season. But I’ll tell you what, other top keepers don’t get as many man of the matches as De Gea and that’s because they have stopped the chance before it even develops. When I watch Mendy I don’t see a brilliant shot stopper, I see a keeper who is proactive at claiming crosses and coming out when needed. Equally with Ederson and Alison who both sense data far better than De Gea too. I’d happily trade some of De Geas shot stopping for an improvement in other areas. I’m still not 100% sure that’s Henderson, but I know he at least has the ingredients.
Yeh every centre back we have ever tried is the weakness. Don’t worry it will be Varane soon when he gets beaten on his own goal line like the others have done. You simply can’t win every challenge in your own six yard box no matter how good you are, in most circumstances you rely on a proactive keeper to come and help you out. De Gea has hung our defenders out to dry multiple times this season. I’m not saying they are without flaw because Maguire has had a poor season but I think back to the Atalanta(?) game where Maguire got pelters for his mistake playing them onside, but that goal is 100% on de Gea as he’s stuck on his line.
His shot stopping is better for sure. But he ranks almost bottom of the table for other stuff, like collecting crosses and sweeping. I think it depends how you define best. If you still think the stopping shots is all that a keeper should do, DDG is the best in the league right now. If you think there’s more to it than that, not so much.
If De Gea is a world class goalkeeper because of his shot-stopping, then Aaron Wan-Bissaka is a world class rightback because of his tackling.
I don't think either is true.
But like Dalot usurping AWB due to his better rounded skillset, I'd be on board with Henderson doing the same to DDG. I have doubts that both Dalot and Henderson are good enough long term, mind you.
I don't think either is true.
But like Dalot usurping AWB due to his better rounded skillset, I'd be on board with Henderson doing the same to DDG. I have doubts that both Dalot and Henderson are good enough long term, mind you.
Pretty much how I've felt for a good few years to be honest. He looks his best when we're at our lowest constantly with our backs against the wall.
Do I trust him not to drop a clanger when it matters? Can't say I do, we've seen it many times before.
I don't think Henderson is necessarily the answer either.
I don’t mind if people don’t rate him but what are those 6 glaring weaknesses? We have two bodies of work to draw on, his time at SHU and when he had a good run of games for us. I get SHU is a different animal but from his stint where he played in place of DDG, what did he not do well?
@Dante comparison with AWB is a good one. DDG is a specialist shot stopper - arguably the best - but that alone doesn’t make someone a top player, you have to see the big picture here. Even if Henderson is an average PL keeper, his style is better overall for the team and we already have the proof of this from when he replaced DDG looking at the underlying stats.
I'm seriously starting to wonder about the sanity of anyone who thinks Henderson a very very average keeper should be our number one instead of De Gea.
Thankfully I am certain that Rangnick is not as crazy as those people and world never entertain that idea.
Thankfully I am certain that Rangnick is not as crazy as those people and world never entertain that idea.
1. Handling, spills all his saves back into the 6 yard box. 2. Size. 3. Lack of agility. 4. Mediocre reactions. 5. Weak in the air, no better at catching/punching than De Gea. 6. Average touch and dodgy kicking.
The comparison of De Gea with AWB is an awful one. Comparing one of the top 5 keepers of the last decade with England's 180th choice right-back. Being good at slide tackling doesn't make up for being terrible at every other aspect of defending. Being the best shot-stopper in the world does make up for being average at other aspects of keeping.
Bad example IMO. Shot-stopping is by far the most important trait in a keeper, tackling is not even the most important (let alone by far) trait for a RB. Positioning for example is more important than tackling when it comes to defending. AWB is actually terrible at defending outside of his tackling and 1 to 1 defending. And when it comes to non-defending part of the game, he is dogshit.
I think a more comparable example is Ronaldo being a WC striker because of his goal-scoring ability.
It also does not help that Henderson is actually worse than De Gea at passing, is probably not better in crosses (attempts more, but also makes mistakes attempting them) and is just slightly better at sweeping. There could have been an argument for him to start over De Gea if he was actually good at those three things (like Dalot is at passing, attacking), but he is not. He is plain average at it.
DDG hasn’t been on any top 5 GK list since the WC. That was in ‘18…This season he’s been better but this is a stylistic question, let’s just assume this is peak DDG and even then I don’t get it.
1. That’s just ridiculous. No PL keeper does that regularly bar that Soton keeper.
2. Terrible take. Same height as Ederson, what 5 cm smaller than Neuer? DDG is basically the same height as Neuer which makes it even more frustrating how bad he is aerially.
3. Again, no PL keeper lacks agility.
4. Mediocre reactions…I agree he has less reaction ability than DDG but then that’s basically all DDG has.
5.I’m just assuming here you didn’t watch us last season.
6. Even if this was true, it’s leagues above DDG which is the entire point. Go look at the advanced keeper stats from last season on FBref (i already put them on this thread) and start filtering, let me know where DDG does well, then go look at Henderson.
If you simply love DDG as a player that’s fine but that’s a really poor list. I honestly don’t know if Henderson will be as good as all the hype suggests but it’s very easy to see the vulnerability we have when DDG starts in open play & we were better in the majority of defensive stats when he played last season (I don’t really see how you can dismiss this so easily) so why not find out when we know DDG doesn’t suit RR’s style?
FYI the AWB point still works your argument against it is awful. You’re basically saying because DDG used to be seen as a top keeper you can’t compare him but with AWB, just like DDG, there are glaring areas of his game that need to improve. AWB is excellent at certain specific defensive actions but stylistically he has to improve to be a match for our tactics, it couldn’t be a better comparison. Difference is AWB is 24, there’s still some hope he can adapt. DDG is what he is and he’s been that keeper for years, it used to suit us but it doesn’t anymore.
I don’t know how this thread is still going…
Why are people saying Dean Henderson should be our number one . Even after De Gea goes I wouldn't give him the number one spot, I'd be looking for a new keeper.
. Even after De Gea goes I wouldn't give him the number one spot, I'd be looking for a new keeper.It's quite amusing to read. Goalkeepers are one of those areas where fans tend to be pretty clueless though.
Its a combination of the young english hype/tax combined with the over belief in our youth players. The sort of narrative that sees Ben White sold for £55m .Why are people saying Dean Henderson should be our number one
Hes no better than a heaton, johnstone or foster. None of them were good enough to be a no.1 here but have had reasonable careers lower down the league.
I don't know if Henderson should be our #1, but I'd like to see him given a chance. I'd like to see us rotate the keepers. De Gea makes some great saves that the Deaner could only dream of making, but I have a feeling we will concede less with Henderson in goal. From what I've seen of the two, Henderson seems like someone who can be a great goal keeper, while De Gea is a goal keeper who makes great saves. There's a huge difference...
Terribly overrated.
If De Gea is no longer #1, then we need a new keeper.
If De Gea is no longer #1, then we need a new keeper.
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Should fetch a nice wedge of cash.
Newcastle in Jan.
He's decent, not sure about best young GK though.
Thought Tony Coton left sometime ago ?
Anyway, concerning Hendo, I think its best for him to leave. It was always going to be unlikely that he'll out-muscle DDG for the number one slot, especially as DDG signed that longterm contract sometime ago. The writing was on the wall at that moment to some degree.
Should, in theory, catch a big fee for him. 20/30 million for one of the leagues highly rated players.
Anyway, concerning Hendo, I think its best for him to leave. It was always going to be unlikely that he'll out-muscle DDG for the number one slot, especially as DDG signed that longterm contract sometime ago. The writing was on the wall at that moment to some degree.
Should, in theory, catch a big fee for him. 20/30 million for one of the leagues highly rated players.
I would have agreed about this last year as de gea just didn't seem to be recovering after that world cup and Henderson provided more control of his own box
Now though de gea seems to have regained his form and has been phenomenal his shot stopping has been world class and while still lacking he has improved on his control of the penalty area
Its great to have Dean who is very decent gk on his we very well might have the best gk department alongside psg and that great thing to have (just to remind you weak backup cost Liverpool and Bayern cl titles) will he ever usurp de gea i don't know doesn't seem like it now but he still has room to further improve his game
Also answering the above asked question i guess oblak would be great to have he's a tad old at 28 but has many years left in him and is truly world class not very good with his feet the way ederson is but is very dominant in his penalty box and is a great shot stopper
Now though de gea seems to have regained his form and has been phenomenal his shot stopping has been world class and while still lacking he has improved on his control of the penalty area
Its great to have Dean who is very decent gk on his we very well might have the best gk department alongside psg and that great thing to have (just to remind you weak backup cost Liverpool and Bayern cl titles) will he ever usurp de gea i don't know doesn't seem like it now but he still has room to further improve his game
Also answering the above asked question i guess oblak would be great to have he's a tad old at 28 but has many years left in him and is truly world class not very good with his feet the way ederson is but is very dominant in his penalty box and is a great shot stopper