Henry Winter's rant on United as a club

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Who said we went late? Player himself said he wasn't interested in the move.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/aug/06/manchester-united-jerome-boateng-bayern-munich

That is from Aug 6th. The window shut on the 8th

Like I said before, not everything revolves around Manutd. Player rejects the moves too.

Which is irrelevant here. The fact we chased the likes of Boateng and Godin very late in the window is more than ample proof they were not the targets Woodward was handed in April. their choosing to come or not and why is a separate matter

Bold part Yeah old players are classic woodward type targets, not Jose's.

Huh? Woodward will NEVER turn down a Galactico signing. Why on earth do you think he accepted to sign Zlatan? And didnt mind swapping Mhkiratyan for an Alexis? This is guy who has been singing from Moyes' day that United can afford to sign a record breaking Galactico plus every window. Heck this is guy who said in the just concluded window he'd readily break the bank for Bale and Varane. Is Bale young? Heck he even wanted to be in the running for CR7! The 'strapping young man' from Real....

So you use reports to link Boateng with ManUtd and that we tried to sign him less than 24 hours before window shut but now we have to ignore the reports that we tried to sign Boateng in June/July.....

No. I don't give a fig about either of those reports, I put bigger stock rather in what Bayern's board says about its players and who wants them, for they rarely tell fibs. And Bayern Boateng considering his options and Bayern being willing to sell to interested parties at a fee they were happy with only came out a fortnight after world cup. If I recall correctly

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

The veracity of that story is dubious given that of the four players mentioned
- All 3 of the 4 were in their mid 30s
- Dacourt and crespo contracts ended in 2009.
- Burdisso was sent on loan to Roma
- Only materazzi stayed
The alleged position of Branca doesnt make any sense, as Inter was never going to sell Dacourt, Materazzi and Crespo for anything, and they had many players on loan during Mourinho tenure.

We have seen Mourinho clashing with a DoF, or anyone for that matter, and that seems far from it.
That is what you implied as if that is the only condition under which Mourinho would work with a DoF (otherwise what is its relevance to your post).

Moratti was not throwing money around. Infact when Moratti needed to spend to secure Cravalho and Deco, he refused to do so.

Their summer was financed by barcelona as Inter got a windfall from the Ibra transfer with €46m+eto. They bought Sneijder for dirt cheap €18m when Perez was cleaning house at Madrid for his new Galactico project , Lucio was €8m due to being out of favor with LvG, Motta was €4m+players, milito was €14m+players and they still had a bit of change left.

Nothing changed and his departure from Inter was no different from his departure from Porto - peak of success, leave before the downturn.

The inter of back then enjoyed a dominant position due to the calciopoli scandal. The current Inter do not have the finacial means to compete in the current market and were almost falling short of FFP rules. It would have been stupid for Mourinho to join and try to unseat Juve on a tight budget, particularly when he had a more promising offer from us.

Mou problem is not with the existence of the DoF but whoever he feels is denying his transfer requests. We are currently experiencing his petulance and we dont have a DoF.

spot on

 

[Needham]

Ignore. For some reason he always get's carried away in winter.

 

[roonster09]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/aug/06/manchester-united-jerome-boateng-bayern-munich

That is from Aug 6th. The window shut on the 8th

Which is irrelevant here. The fact we chased the likes of Boateng and Godin very late in the window is more than ample proof they were not the targets Woodward was handed in April. their choosing to come or not and why is a separate matter

From the same article

The 29-year-old is top of José Mourinho’s wishlist as he desperately tries to bolster his squad before the transfer window closes on Thursday.

At least read what you are posting.

Huh? Woodward will NEVER turn down a Galactico signing. Why on earth do you think he accepted to sign Zlatan? And didnt mind swapping Mhkiratyan for an Alexis? This is guy who has been singing from Moye's day that United can afford to sign a record breaking Galactico plus every window. Heck this is guy who said in the just concluded window he'd readily break the bank for Bale and Varane. Is Bale young?

Because Jose wanted Zlatan and Alexis, and Woodward like any director backed his manager and got him the players Jose wanted?

No. I don't give a fig about either of those reports, I put bigger stock rather in what Bayern's board says about its players and who wants them, for they rarely tell fibs. And Bayern Boateng considering his options and Bayern being willing to sell to interested parties at a fee they were happy with only came out a fortnight after world cup. If I recall correctly

So according to the link you posted, Boateng was very high on Jose's list and from the interview I posted, Boateng turned down the move. It won't get more obvious than this. Boateng rejected to play for Jose.

 

[Johan07]

Rather be gives lists and Ed Woodward CHOOSES to sign what he prefers. Be them on the list or not

This is simply not true.
Anyone with any insight in the club knows that Woodward has distanced himself from the footballing side of things the last couple of years and has not been involved in negotiations or scouting of players for the last two or three years.
Woodward is no idiot, he knows that its not what he excels at, which this obviously proves. Woodward is not clinging on to be head of footballing decisions, its the opposite, which this development proves.
Negotiations and footballing decisions are handled by Matthew Judge, who has been our chief negotiator for several years now. We have a head of scouting as well, his name escapes me when I am writing this.
These two are the ones that actually works together with Mourinho. Together those two already are our DoF. We will probably see the club merge these positions into a formal DoF-role very soon. I personally think it will happen when Mourinho leaves. I also think Matt Judge is in the driving seat for the position, he does a lot of things that a future DoF will do already.
Woodwards only involvement with the football side nowadays is to set the wage budget and to formally sign off on the transfers as CEO. And guess what? He will still be doing this after we do employ a formal DoF. But the club already works like there is one in place, the organization is just a ltb different.
There is no evidence of Woodward being even remotely close to being involved in the footballing side of things for quite awhile now. And yet this so tiresome narrative does not go away. If you are going to bash Woodward and the Glazers at least get your facts right from the start.
Google is your friend if not anything else.

 

[SirAF]

This is simply not true.
Anyone with any insight in the club knows that Woodward has distanced himself from the footballing side of things the last couple of years and has not been involved in negotiations or scouting of players for the last two or three years.
Woodward is no idiot, he knows that its not what he excels at, which this obviously proves. Woodward is not clinging on to be head of footballing decisions, its the opposite, which this development proves.
Negotiations and footballing decisions are handled by Matthew Judge, who has been our chief negotiator for several years now. We have a head of scouting as well, his name escapes me when I am writing this.
These two are the ones that actually works together with Mourinho. Together those two already are our DoF. We will probably see the club merge these positions into a formal DoF-role very soon. I personally think it will happen when Mourinho leaves. I also think Matt Judge is in the driving seat for the position, he does a lot of things that a future DoF will do already.
Woodwards only involvement with the football side nowadays is to set the wage budget and to formally sign off on the transfers as CEO. And guess what? He will still be doing this after we do employ a formal DoF. But the club already works like there is one in place, the organization is just a ltb different.
There is no evidence of Woodward being even remotely close to being involved in the footballing side of things for quite awhile now. And yet this so tiresome narrative does not go away. If you are going to bash Woodward and the Glazers at least get your facts right from the start.
Google is your friend if not anything else.

I think most of us, with an interest in United, are aware of Matt Judge's position, but what would qualify him as DoF? He's not a football man, he's an investment banker.

 

[Mockney]

Nevermind who is posting that clip. Winters understand what the REAL issues at the club are.

“But her emails!!?”

 

[SirAF]

“But her emails!!?”

Thanks for winning the argument for me by posting a meme.

 

[devilish]

Huh? Your post literally really emphsises your previous claim that Mourinho 'clashed with Branca' and was vastly unhappy with their set up that involves a DOF and now frugal spending, first leaving for Real after 2 seasons and then turning them down for us after his chelsea second sacking.

I said he had early skirmishes with branca which is true and while things weren't bad for the majority of times its also true that he only stayed there for 2 years. So take that into account + the fact he chose us over them kind of suggest that his happiness at imter was grossly exxagerated.

 

[izec]

Jose is just inept and chaotic as the whole club under Woody. Perfect fit and recipe for a disaster we are witnessing currently.

 

[Johan07]

I think most of us, with an interest in United, are aware of Matt Judge's position, but what would qualify him as DoF? He's not a football man, he's an investment banker.

I think its a bit overrated that the DoF needs to be a "football man", whatever that is. No pun intended. There are several prominent "DoFs" that have no real background within the game itself.
Its a position that requires a wide contact net and not at least a good reputation with the other relevant "players" on the European market. Judge has handled our transfer business for quite some time now and has probably built himself up to this level now to be in the running.
That said, its up in the air who the club will choose. Going by the managerial appointements it has been experience that seems to been key, disregarding the Moyes-mess. So we will see.
This appointment; even if its "promoting" Judge or recruiting externally will be on Woodward on the Board to get right though. And something that they should be held accountable for in the future. Instead of bashing them for this fantasy input big bad Ed has on our transfers according to many on the Caf...

 

[MDFC Manager]

Oooh, the acolytes have found some support to defend their beloved Jose

 

[Maticmaker]

Winter was giving an overvew, basically the business side is booming but the football side is regressing, in other words the club has lost its way and he seemed to hint the owners maybe more interested in selling and realising the asset, than actually rolling up their sleeves and putting the football side right.

Think I might agree with him!

 

[tomaldinho1]

Yeah agreed, it's bizarre because he was pretty much spot on with the rest of his monologue.

What's even more baffling is that he talks about what Manchester United represents as a club. How can one think that the football Mourinho plays (or the personality he is) represents Manchester United culture, even with the addition of a DoF?

Not that bizarre if you think Mou will likely go on to other big clubs and Winter might as well stay in his good books. Everyone will want Mou's scoop post his time at United because, like the pages of drivel the media print now, it will sell.

 

[reddaz71]

Nail on the head from Winter, Am sorry but to be perfectly honest this club needs a Saudi buy-out otherwise its going to be years before Utd are challenging once again!

 

[UncleBob]

Rather be gives lists and Ed Woodward CHOOSES to sign what he prefers. Be them on the list or not

Like who ?

 

[Roboc7]

A lot of what he says makes sense, part about Woodward acting like a DOF is nonsense and he doesn’t really address the Mourinho issue. If Winter believes players are letting the club down and not trying then he should be saying same about the manager who is at least every bit as bad.

There are two big issues to address, firstly the manager is a disaster and secondly the way the football side of the club is run isn’t good enough. Tackling both is equally as important and I think most people can see that.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I said he had early skirmishes with branca which is true and while things weren't bad for the majority of times its also true that he only stayed there for 2 years. So take that into account + the fact he chose us over them kind of suggest that his happiness at imter was grossly exxagerated.

I know no manager worth his salt bar a Pool diehard fan like Gerrard who'd turn down the chance to manage a United or Madrid, when they are very ambitious in persona just because they were happy at a club of inter's size.

 

[Moriarty]

Winter was giving an overvew, basically the business side is booming but the football side is regressing, in other words the club has lost its way and he seemed to hint the owners maybe more interested in selling and realising the asset, than actually rolling up their sleeves and putting the football side right.

Think I might agree with him!

I know I do. This club lists over to the commercial side to the detriment of the sporting side.

 

[UncleBob]

Nail on the head from Winter, Am sorry but to be perfectly honest this club needs a Saudi buy-out otherwise its going to be years before Utd are challenging once again!

What ?

 

[devilish]

I know no manager worth his salt bar a Pool diehard fan like Gerrard who'd turn down the chance to manage a United or Madrid, when they are very ambitious in persona just because they were happy at a club of inter's size.

Inter are quite united size

 

[yamo123x]

I agree with Winter, he is clearly a utd fan having heard that rant. Good on him. Ed to me is a fall guy who does lots of brilliant commercial work for the club, the issues now lie firmly with Mourinho..

1/ Mourinho cannot build a team he wants to buy individuals--- our team needed rebuulding and he has not done that.
2/ Mourinho cannot accept not being the main attraction, this is why he falls out with Ronaldo, Hazard and now Pogba.
3/ Mourinho cannot man manage, he cannot take criticism and he is regualry tarnishing the image of this club.


He has to go, we need fresh input...the fans need to be off their seats again. Best we can get this year is 6th IMO.
Would love to get Gary Neville and Mike Phelan, maybe Rio involved in the club to take us forward. Get some passion back into the team.

 

[Ibrahimorich]

Having a manager's yes man as DOF defeats the very argument of having a DOF in the first place

Exactly. The DoF should be beholden and accountable to a style of play the club sets out.

 

[Moriarty]

1/ Mourinho cannot build a team he wants to buy individuals--- our team needed rebuulding and he has not done that.
2/ Mourinho cannot accept not being the main attraction, this is why he falls out with Ronaldo, Hazard and now Pogba.
3/ Mourinho cannot man manage, he cannot take criticism and he is regualry tarnishing the image of this club.

1. Has he ever tried? He managed Porto on a shoestring but then came to Chelsea where the mafia man's chequebook was always open.
2. Huge egos always clash. You'd think he'd have learned a bit of restraint. You can't treat multi-millionaire sports stars like naughty little boys.
3/ Flows on from 2. Pride goeth before a fall, as the old saying goes. And Mo has pride in spades. He tries at times to be humble, but it's a veneer. But how many successful men are truly humble?

 

[Ibrahimorich]

With all due respect this is bull. The accusation that Ed chooses his own targets is baseless.
The far likelier scenario is that we negotiate for targets in order of priority. If one comes off, we move to the next one, like any normal club.
We've signed 11 players under Mourinho and no one will convince me they none of them were players Mourinho wanted.

Humour me here...it's pretty nailed on that Mourinho wanted Perisic. Inter would've sold at a given price. We didn't get him. Why not?

Seems fairly clear that Woodward decides whether or not a purchase represents value and is ultimately the final decision maker.

 

[Ekeke]

The idea that Woodward is standing there and telling people who is and isnt a good CB with no footballing scouts and personnel giving him reports for an informed opinion is completely laughable.

We're Manchester United. I'm sure he's inundated with reports and statistics from our staff who specialize in those areas.

He's also a money man. Thats why hes been so good with getting us valuable sponsorships. I'm sure he's also buried in reports from people who know the most about player values and current or projected future trends in football finances.

That doesn't mean that he will never make a wrong decision. He's human afterall. But to think that a non footballing person is making football decisions with no responsibility to wade through all the reports, stats and theories from the footballing people employed by the club sounds completely ridiculous.

 

[Oneunited26]

Maybe winter needs to ask the kind of players Jose is backing, and the players he’s tried to ditch.

Any manager that has his core group
Of young, Valencia, Jones, smalling, matic, fellaini, mctomney, lukaku, he has better players available who are seen has his bench players, is there any wonder teams are kicking our backsides.

They know this united side play at a very one pace because the side is old on his fave. Teams know you play a fast pace with smalling, Jones, matic, fellaini and lukaku, because none of these players are quick on the ball, and they always prone to given the ball away. When your spine is in this slow state, this is a teams dream because everyone loves playing against a slow midfield and defender unable to play from the back

Look at that spine
Smalling
Matic fellaini
Lukaku

That is a spine Jose mourinho he is building his squad around, and he’s setting on fire united best players who have all won him matches

 

[noodlehair]

Woodward is very clearly a massive problem, and the people who defend how the club is run on the basis that he is "very good commercially" or "good with sponsorship deals" are the most bafflingly deluded people on this site.

Firstly, no fan, ever, has given a feck about their club's sponsorship deals or ability to rip people off. No one goes to games thinking "well we might get tonked by Newcastle today but at least I was forced to pay £75 for my replica shirt and the club will make £1m from that new official houseplant partner they announced"

Why do people keep using this as a defence as if it is relevant at all?

Secondly, sponsorship success is tied in to footballing success. If the football team continues to be run as poorly as it is, the commercial and sponsorship success will soon go out the window, so if Woodward is rubbish at running the football side of the club, which he is, then even if (for whatever bizarre reason) you are more concerned about the sponsorships, you should still be very concerned.

Aside from that, I don't care what Henry Winter thinks because he just spouts whatever comes into his head then acts really obnoxious about it in the belief this makes him correct. I especially don't care for the viewpoint of someone who has mourinho as their twitter picture and has named themselves after Mourinho, and has had to resort to finding clips and articles of people slagging off things other than Mourinho to agree with, due to no one actually defending Mourinho anymore.

I think Jose has been given enough patience now. Even in his first season the need to win games became secondary to him to the need to prove we were playing too many fixtures. Last season he was more concerned with trying to stop people being allowed to criticise him than he was with managing the team correctly. This season it's the same. Occasionally there are snippets of him talking sense about our actual performances or what we need to do, which is what I've been cllinging to, but those are brief respites in between the self obsessed, defeatist drivel...and it's increasingly clear which of the two is winning the battle.

 

[R'hllor]

That doesn't make him wrong on this occasion. Even a broken clock is right twice a day...

Never said he was right or wrong.

 

[UncleBob]

Henry Winter sounds more like a fan rather than a journalist with that rant, and quite a lot of what he's saying is bizarre.

The Glazers aren't the first, and they won't be the last owners who take money out of a club, the numbers are tiny in comparisons to the day to day operation of the club in terms of player investments, it's not restricting the club in any way. We were much more restricted as a PLC. It's frustrating that they are there, as they are a bunch of ____, but the money going out of the club isn't effecting us. It was an issue earlier on, and we should've invested a lot more when Fergie was still the manager, but these days it's hardly the cause.

It's like complaining about the prices of chewing gum after you've tanked up your Bugatti Chiron. It's not like Liverpools current owners aren't taking money out of the club as well.

We've invested odd £400mill since Mourinho's arrival, and there's the free transfers of Zlatan and Alexis Sanchez (who sure as hell aren't free in terms of wages and sign on fees), we have the highest wage bill in the league. While we can all agree that it's a bit shit that we didn't sign any defenders, as our current ones are dodgy as hell, the narrative that we're not investing is a bit off..Mourinho is a world class manager, not a toddler who will throw his toys out the window as soon as something doesn't go his way, last season we were "ready to compete for the title", this season he's complaining about our spending and that we'll struggle to finish 4th, and that the investments Everton made were phenomenal. It should be abundantly clear to everyone that Mourinho is a bit more than just unhappy that he didn't get his will during the summer, but that hardly explains our current predicaments.

The narrative that the players are playing poorly because they are unhappy with the current management is a strange one, this whole "they should still give their best". In the past month we've won 3-2 after being 2 goals down against Newcastle in a match that was claimed to be critical for Mourinho to win, we came back from being a goal down against Chelsea to being inches away from winning 2-1. We came back against Juventis in Turin, even against Southampton we came back from being 2 goals down. The narrative back then was players standing up for Mourinho.

Maybe the issue isn't players who aren't fit to wear the shirt and represent Manchester United, maybe the issue is simply that the manager hasn't been able to progress, maybe he's become a bit too focused on proving to everyone that this and that is impossible. It's at a point where i suspect he'll prefer to loose in order to prove a point, rather than win and make it look like someone else is right.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Humour me here...it's pretty nailed on that Mourinho wanted Perisic. Inter would've sold at a given price. We didn't get him. Why not?

Seems fairly clear that Woodward decides whether or not a purchase represents value and is ultimately the final decision maker.

Because Perisic didn't fancy playing for Mourinho. Go figure.

 

[UncleBob]

Humour me here...it's pretty nailed on that Mourinho wanted Perisic. Inter would've sold at a given price. We didn't get him. Why not?

Seems fairly clear that Woodward decides whether or not a purchase represents value and is ultimately the final decision maker.

Inter asked for obscene fee + Martial on loan, or no Martial and even more obscene fee. It's not the first time we've considered a deal to be too expensive, not going to be the last, it's not suddenly in 2018 the root cause of our problems.

 

[roonster09]

Humour me here...it's pretty nailed on that Mourinho wanted Perisic. Inter would've sold at a given price. We didn't get him. Why not?

Seems fairly clear that Woodward decides whether or not a purchase represents value and is ultimately the final decision maker.

Wants to sound smart arse eh? Why don't you read Perisic's interview he gave few days back and also Inter director's interview he gave after transfer window when he said Inter would have agreed only player plus cash deal.

 

[Ekeke]

Humour me here...it's pretty nailed on that Mourinho wanted Perisic. Inter would've sold at a given price. We didn't get him. Why not?

Seems fairly clear that Woodward decides whether or not a purchase represents value and is ultimately the final decision maker.

Clearly we couldnt make the deal work financially. Do you think Mourinho would have gone ahead with the deal if he cost £150 million and Jose would have £0 to spend for the next year?

We didn't get Perisic but then Woodward delivered a similar player profile but someone considered a much better player - Sanchez. And instead of paying £70 million or whatever for a 29 year old, we swapped for another player the same age who wasnt enjoying his football at the club and who a lot of fans had seemingly turned on. The wages are obviously a big factor. But at the time that all looked better than making Perisic our 2nd most expensive player ever

 

[poleglass red]

isn't Henry Winter the guy that used to play Fonzie in Happy Days. Good him on finding a new career after that show stopped.

 

[mitchmouse]

I find him annoying, even when I'm agreeing with him. It's weird.

that's the description of a good journalist - take him from someone who has worked with them for almost 40 years!. On a side issue, this is one of the best shows on Sky

 

[mitchmouse]

Clearly we couldnt make the deal work financially. Do you think Mourinho would have gone ahead with the deal if he cost £150 million and Jose would have £0 to spend for the next year?

We didn't get Perisic but then Woodward delivered a similar player profile but someone considered a much better player - Sanchez. And instead of paying £70 million or whatever for a 29 year old, we swapped for another player the same age who wasnt enjoying his football at the club and who a lot of fans had seemingly turned on. The wages are obviously a big factor. But at the time that all looked better than making Perisic our 2nd most expensive player ever

we need width. it is the one major bug bear I have with Jose. he doesn't seem to believe it real wingers - instead uses two failed ones as wing backs; a job they are even worse at

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Inter are quite united size

They don't have the global appeal nor resources of neither Real Madrid nor Manchester United

 

[devilish]

They don't have the global appeal nor resources of neither Real Madrid nor Manchester United

True which is a problem for a manager who needs to buy success

 

[Masterman]

I think its a bit overrated that the DoF needs to be a "football man", whatever that is. No pun intended. There are several prominent "DoFs" that have no real background within the game itself.
Its a position that requires a wide contact net and not at least a good reputation with the other relevant "players" on the European market. Judge has handled our transfer business for quite some time now and has probably built himself up to this level now to be in the running.
That said, its up in the air who the club will choose. Going by the managerial appointements it has been experience that seems to been key, disregarding the Moyes-mess. So we will see.
This appointment; even if its "promoting" Judge or recruiting externally will be on Woodward on the Board to get right though. And something that they should be held accountable for in the future. Instead of bashing them for this fantasy input big bad Ed has on our transfers according to many on the Caf...

Monchi - Former Sevilla player
Michael Zorc - Former Dortmund captain
Giuseppe Marotta - Manager at age of 22
Ralf Rangnick - former bit time player
Michael Emenalo - former bit time player

Pretty much most of the notable DoF have football background. Only former banker I can think of is Andrea Berta. A DoF is not just a negotiator, he is the guy who will have the biggest voice in deciding if the club should sack the manager and who the next managers of his club will be. He is the guy who gets to decide what the direction the club will be heading irregardless of the manager hired. If the club doesn't seem to have a direction and just sacks managers for fun then the DoF will find his position in the club untenable.