Hillsborough verdict

redman5

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March 2015: David Duckenfield admitted that his 'multiple' professional failings led to the deaths of 96 innocent men, women, & children.

April 2016: A jury said that 96 people were unlawfully killed by the gross negligence manslaughter of David Duckenfield to a criminal standard of proof.

November 2019: A jury of 7 women & 3 men find Mr Duckenfield not guilty.

Whoever said the law is an ass wasn't far wrong. I think Judge Openshaw needs to have a long, close, look at himself.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...l-left-hillsborough-families-distraught-again
 

Saddy

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I think a fundamental issue in the 80s was that all football fans were considered to be hooligans by default by the police and treated that way - herded into football grounds alongside huge horses and a very low threshold on any perceived poor behaviour.

I can remember going to a United away game at Nottingham Forest and ending up squashed at the bottom of one of the pens unable to move, breath properly and couldn't even remember what was going on in the match. More and more fans poured into the top end and pushed down - it was very very scary and my mate's younger sister ending up getting pulled out but the police were just telling us to shut up and showed no care & attention to our pleas about getting crushed. This always comes back to me as I just cannot comprehend what those poor people went through as they suffocated to death. It's a bloody disgrace nobody has been punished properly for this !

Anybody who went to any important match and definitely a cup final would push forward to get a better view or just get into the ground for the kick off - they would assume that someone in authority would be controlling the numbers etc. Those police at the front of the pens and the controllers in that viewing box MUST have realised and reacted to the situation much quicker.
 
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BigRon1985

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Correct me if I’m wrong but I read somewhere all Duckenfield had to do to help alleviate the crush outside the ground was too make an announcement over the PA that kick off would be delayed by 15 minutes. Can’t understand why this wasn’t considered as an option?
 

Denis' cuff

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March 2015: David Duckenfield admitted that his 'multiple' professional failings led to the deaths of 96 innocent men, women, & children.

April 2016: A jury said that 96 people were unlawfully killed by the gross negligence manslaughter of David Duckenfield to a criminal standard of proof.

November 2019: A jury of 7 women & 3 men find Mr Duckenfield not guilty.

Whoever said the law is an ass wasn't far wrong. I think Judge Openshaw needs to have a long, close, look at himself.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...l-left-hillsborough-families-distraught-again

You think?

It was a jury who presented the verdict.

In general, fans were treated like cattle by police but then again, a large minority behaved like animals, especially at away matches.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Having been in their position in my own personal life with regards to losing a loved one and a case of GNM being put before the courts.

The families are speaking with their emotions rather than using logic. One family member was asked yesterday and ranted that it would be different if 96 police officers had died - irrelevant and silly to say. Another mentioned she just wanted her son back.

It seems many want, and are searching for something they will never get. I'm not sure anything will provide the closure they want. It's very sad.
Of course they are speaking at an emotionally charged time. But my points remain valid.

Its not helpful you branding these people as "stupid" or "silly" when they have perfectly valid reasons to ask some serious questions.

And of course it would be different if 96 police officers died. There would not have been a police and government cover up aided by some media outlets. That is exactly the point, so very relevant actually. Why don't you get it?
 

redman5

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You think?

It was a jury who presented the verdict.

In general, fans were treated like cattle by police but then again, a large minority behaved like animals, especially at away matches.
I was at both Hillsborough semi-finals in 1988 & 1989. The fundamental difference between the 2 was that in 88 it was policed with crowd safety in mind. The following year it was all geared towards crowd control. Nobody died in 1988. Which begs the question why did 96 people die the following year ? Same teams, same fans, same venue, same competition, different police officer in charge.

Obviously we don't know who the members of the jury were, their ages, background etc. But anyone under the age of 40 would probably have very little recollection of the Hillsborough tragedy. They probably don't see Mr Duckenfield as a 45 year old man who was entrusted with the safety & wellbeing of thousands of individuals at a big football match. Instead they see a frail old man of 75, who, given the comments of the judge, came across as something of a victim himself with his PTSD & chest infection.
 

Sandikan

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Sandikan

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Having been in their position in my own personal life with regards to losing a loved one and a case of GNM being put before the courts.

The families are speaking with their emotions rather than using logic. One family member was asked yesterday and ranted that it would be different if 96 police officers had died - irrelevant and silly to say. Another mentioned she just wanted her son back.

It seems many want, and are searching for something they will never get. I'm not sure anything will provide the closure they want. It's very sad.
You think it wouldn't be different?

Normal people fighting a powerful organisation is a million times harder than a powerful organisation fighting others. It certainly wouldn't have taken 25-30 years for the full smear and lies to come out the other way round.
 

TheReligion

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Of course they are speaking at an emotionally charged time. But my points remain valid.

Its not helpful you branding these people as "stupid" or "silly" when they have perfectly valid reasons to ask some serious questions.

And of course it would be different if 96 police officers died. There would not have been a police and government cover up aided by some media outlets. That is exactly the point, so very relevant actually. Why don't you get it?
What don't I get? It wasn't 96 police officers so it's an irrelevant point to make.
 

TheReligion

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You think it wouldn't be different?

Normal people fighting a powerful organisation is a million times harder than a powerful organisation fighting others. It certainly wouldn't have taken 25-30 years for the full smear and lies to come out the other way round.
The biggest issue is the amount of time its taken to get to this point. Totally agree. That said the decision now has to be respected in my opinion and the families move on.
 

Denis' cuff

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I was at both Hillsborough semi-finals in 1988 & 1989. The fundamental difference between the 2 was that in 88 it was policed with crowd safety in mind. The following year it was all geared towards crowd control. Nobody died in 1988. Which begs the question why did 96 people die the following year ? Same teams, same fans, same venue, same competition, different police officer in charge.

Obviously we don't know who the members of the jury were, their ages, background etc. But anyone under the age of 40 would probably have very little recollection of the Hillsborough tragedy. They probably don't see Mr Duckenfield as a 45 year old man who was entrusted with the safety & wellbeing of thousands of individuals at a big football match. Instead they see a frail old man of 75, who, given the comments of the judge, came across as something of a victim himself with his PTSD & chest infection.

Really don’t think much of that is relevant. Largely supposition with hindsight.
 

AlwaysRed66

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People are asking why fans were treated like that, but this was only four years after Heysel when 39 Juventus fans were unjustly killed due in part to the thuggish behaviour of Liverpool fans. English clubs were then given an indefinite European ban, which was still in place by the time of this tragedy.
 

Denis' cuff

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There's some pretty scandalous quotes from high ranking police in there.

While the Sun seems to get the majority of the scorn, they were pretty much reporting what they'd been fed by the police!

Duckenfield lied that the fans had smashed open a gate! He'd given the order. That's criminal.
Had he not opened it, they would’ve smashed it open, as was their intention.

Couldn’t win either way.

How this scum have had a free pass through all of this is beyond me. They blame the ground (little different from any others of the day), the police (who were also partly to blame) but it is/was always them, oddly enough, involved. They didn’t suffer, it was just the poor buggers at the front, who made sure they got there in good time with their tickets and got their places at the front. There are so many facets to this but people treat it as a black and white issue, as though one side is guilt free and it’s all the fault of the other side.
 
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njred

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Had he not opened it, they would’ve smashed it open, as was their intention.

Couldn’t win either way.

How this scum have had a free pass through all of this is beyond me. They blame the ground (little different from any others of the day), the police (who were also partly to blame) but it is/was always them, oddly enough, involved. They didn’t suffer, it was just the poor buggers at the front, who made sure they got there in good time with their tickets and got their places at the front.
How about all the families who had to read about their kids who had just died listening to stories made up by the police sent to the news to discredit them. Those families. What do you and c*nts like you say to them? Are you going to call them scum too? Really surprised at some posters who usually are level headed sprouting those families to "move on". What if it was your family.
 

montpelier

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I read this in the Liverpool Echo report the other day. The source of the gate smashed down idea is possibly a Plod up the road outside who did believe that.

Duckenfield and a few others know that isn't the case and keep quiet?

Others go with the wrong story. Any scenario still has Duckenfield front and centre. But then there is all the altered Plod statements. Conspiracy is a tough nut to crack conviction wise, especially after 30 years.

And Denis, there is no crowd control outside, there is no crowd control inside, have a look at a photo of the tunnel they were directed towards after the gate was opened. Also consider the level of misbehaving inside the ground, because Ive never heard of any that wasn't obviously made up.
 

montpelier

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And Redman, I think they did work on the pens between 88 & 89, but not a capacity review or new safety cert or anything useful like signs, because this tunnel looks dodge, they just put more barriers in for the sake of it as far as I can tell.
 

Snuffkin

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The real scandal is not that an incompetent copper got off. But that the systematic, multi-agency establishment closed ranks, and continue to keep it stitched up. That includes the press, the police and the FA. Has anything changed?
 
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Mb194dc

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People are asking why fans were treated like that, but this was only four years after Heysel when 39 Juventus fans were unjustly killed due in part to the thuggish behaviour of Liverpool fans. English clubs were then given an indefinite European ban, which was still in place by the time of this tragedy.
Hard for modern fans to understand how bad hooliganism was in the 70s and 80s, not just Liverpool lots of teams including Chelsea...


Imagine being in the police and having to deal with this every weekend!

Modern corporate football a totally different animal (mainly... England...)
 

Needham

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Hard for modern fans to understand how bad hooliganism was in the 70s and 80s, not just Liverpool lots of teams including Chelsea...


Imagine being in the police and having to deal with this every weekend!

Modern corporate football a totally different animal (mainly... England...)
The broader context is not just how bad certain supporters behaved then. It's also how shockingly designed was the entrance to the Leppings Lane end. Who do you prosecute for that?
 

sullydnl

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Had he not opened it, they would’ve smashed it open, as was their intention.

Couldn’t win either way.

How this scum have had a free pass through all of this is beyond me. They blame the ground (little different from any others of the day), the police (who were also partly to blame) but it is/was always them, oddly enough, involved. They didn’t suffer, it was just the poor buggers at the front, who made sure they got there in good time with their tickets and got their places at the front. There are so many facets to this but people treat it as a black and white issue, as though one side is guilt free and it’s all the fault of the other side.
A remarkably obnoxious and stupid post.
 

Bestofthebest

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I attended an FA Cup Semi- Final at Hillsborough, Utd vs Leeds. This was in March 1970 and it turned into a scarey experience. Me and three mates had been in a pub quite near the Leppings Lane end before kick off and there were a lot of Utd fans trying to scrounge, steal or buy tickets. We left the pub and got into the ground about 15 minutes before KO and it was packed. Just as the game got underway there was a huge commotion followed by a big crush as loads of fans came down the central aisle under the stand and started pushing their way into the crowd. The few policemen there were overwhelmed by the fans and it was very hectic in the crowd for several minutes. Those few minutes were the worst I ever experienced inside a ground and I truely admit to being scared.

Of course there were no barriers at the front of the crowd so the crush was able to dissipate quite quickly but my mind flashed back to that day when I heard about the Liverpool disaster. Since then I have wondered how often this happened at Hillborough but I never went in the Leppings Lane stand again. I cannot think that these were the only instances of this happening and still believe that there was a plan to open the gates at some stage when big crowds remained outside at kick off.

I went to the two replays at Villa Park and Burnden Park where we lost 1-0 to a Billy Bremner goal, so typical of
Utd in those days.
 

Sandikan

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Had he not opened it, they would’ve smashed it open, as was their intention.

Couldn’t win either way.

How this scum have had a free pass through all of this is beyond me. They blame the ground (little different from any others of the day), the police (who were also partly to blame) but it is/was always them, oddly enough, involved. They didn’t suffer, it was just the poor buggers at the front, who made sure they got there in good time with their tickets and got their places at the front. There are so many facets to this but people treat it as a black and white issue, as though one side is guilt free and it’s all the fault of the other side.
While football crowds are difficult to deal with, like another poster said, it was nearly the exact components as the season before - teams, nature of game - same stadium etc , so why did one game go smoothly and one was a disaster?

Different police/guy in charge.

The facts have since come out, that the fans DIDN'T storm a gate - they went in through a gate the police opened up for them (then lied about - utterly criminal).
They ushered them into an already crammed area, without any sensechecks on volume control.

It's a horrific thing to think about - so calling anyone "scum", when their own fans were crushed to death is a deeply sinister way of looking at it.

Scum is the sort of word you'd use for hooliganism - which has been proven not to be the situation to hand.
 

Sandikan

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I attended an FA Cup Semi- Final at Hillsborough, Utd vs Leeds. This was in March 1970 and it turned into a scarey experience. Me and three mates had been in a pub quite near the Leppings Lane end before kick off and there were a lot of Utd fans trying to scrounge, steal or buy tickets. We left the pub and got into the ground about 15 minutes before KO and it was packed. Just as the game got underway there was a huge commotion followed by a big crush as loads of fans came down the central aisle under the stand and started pushing their way into the crowd. The few policemen there were overwhelmed by the fans and it was very hectic in the crowd for several minutes. Those few minutes were the worst I ever experienced inside a ground and I truely admit to being scared.

Of course there were no barriers at the front of the crowd so the crush was able to dissipate quite quickly but my mind flashed back to that day when I heard about the Liverpool disaster. Since then I have wondered how often this happened at Hillborough but I never went in the Leppings Lane stand again. I cannot think that these were the only instances of this happening and still believe that there was a plan to open the gates at some stage when big crowds remained outside at kick off.

I went to the two replays at Villa Park and Burnden Park where we lost 1-0 to a Billy Bremner goal, so typical of
Utd in those days.
You look back at those massive gates at the front, and people pouring in at the back, and you honestly wonder how there weren't massive problems more often.
Even if the numbers were in control, any surges could still surely cause massive crushes. Just unthinkable really.
 

Sandikan

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A remarkably obnoxious and stupid post.
They always say that some people won't change their opinion on anything, whatever facts are presented to them.
I feel this guy is one of those people.
 

Chesterlestreet

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The real scandal is not that an incompetent copper got off. But that the systematic, multi-agency establishment closed ranks, and continue to keep it stitched up. That includes the press, the police and the FA. Has anything changed?
You're absolutely right.

The whole sad and horrible business should have been handled differently, no matter how you look at it, and the outcome of this most recent trial isn't satisfactory either.
 

tarzan

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Yeah many others along with Duckfield bear responsibility. I'd personally like McKenzie and The Sun to be brought to book for the filth they printed in the days after but it seems like it was Duckenfield or bust.
10 good friends of mine where there that day who were very lucky to survive it.

They also tried to help out the unfortunate ones but at the same time were also met with the police who were preventing them from doing so.

Then word gets round that the fans were robbing the dead, unbelievable!

So yeah, I fully agree with you.
 

coolhand1969

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This may be a stupid question, but why was Hillsborough chosen as the neutral venue for this match?
 

SteveJ

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'The verdict defies logic. Ch Supt Duckenfield reacted to the build-up of supporters outside the ground by ordering the gates to be opened before the game between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest. It was a catastrophic and deadly error. Duckenfield then lied and told FA executives that fans had broken in to the stadium. That cowardly deceit set the tone for everything that followed. It was the founding myth of Hillsborough. Even while the dead and dying were lying on the pitch, barely attended to by the emergency services, Duckenfield was throwing the blame and trying to avoid the responsibility for a decision that caused the carnage.

He admitted everything at the 2015 inquests into the disaster, saying that his “professional failings … led to the deaths of 96 innocent men, women and children”. Duckenfield added that he had “no idea” what motivated him to blame other people for his mistakes. The jury at the inquests returned a verdict of unlawful killing, reversing the 1990 ruling of accidental deaths. Despite this, the retired officer was able to walk away last week in the face of overwhelming evidence and his own admissions.

It took some tortuous legal logic to create a courtroom environment where this could be allowed to happen. Sir Peter Openshaw, the judge, told the jury that the inquest’s findings – which were not discussed in court – were “quite irrelevant”. The most exhaustive and longest inquest in British history was dismissed as not being pertinent. The families watching in a conference room in Liverpool were aghast. It was even more dispiriting to hear the defence barrister, Benjamin Myers QC, recycle all the rancid myths that grew out of Duckenfield’s dissembling: that fans turned up late, alcohol was a factor and supporters ignored police instructions. All this had been comprehensively dismissed at the inquests. They were even more appalled when Judge Openshaw called the defendant a “poor chap” after Duckenfield was forced to go to hospital with a suspected chest infection.

Yet this was not a doddery septuagenarian being persecuted inappropriately for actions long buried in the past. Duckenfield was a public servant who failed in his basic duties to the people he was charged with protecting. Debate about Hillsborough should not be about football or the city of Liverpool; this is a matter of civic safety that has implications for everyone in British society. We need to be able to trust the emergency services and the systems that are set up to protect the populace. Those systems failed on 15 April, 1989, and no one will ever take responsibility for that failure.

Why should anyone care about Hillsborough? Because any time you or your loved ones attend a public event it should be with the knowledge that the people responsible for maintaining order and safety will be competent. If things go wrong it is important that investigations explain why and ensure the situation never occurs again. For this to happen, there needs to be accountability.'


(Guardian)
 

SteveJ

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David Conn said:
So, after a terrible ordeal and awesome fight for justice, the families of the 96 have endured 30 years in the courts, and found themselves bereft again. The families bereaved by Grenfell and Britain’s other shaming disasters are only in the foothills of their own journey, through a legal system that has not only changed little since 1989, but whose wigs, gowns and archaic ceremony pronounce its pride in remaining very much the same.
Once again, our legal system has failed the victims of Hillsborough:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...system-victims-hillsborough-david-duckenfield