How bad can your worst players be and still win the league?

[Pogue Mahone]

Most United fans seem to think our worst 3 or 4 players are worse than their equivalent at most top half clubs. I found myself thinking this at the weekend. Southampton are one of the favourites for relegation but is Martial really any better as a striker than the two who played against us? Would Matic start ahead of Romeu? And so on.

So the question is, can a team win the league with two or three regular starters that might struggle to get a game at any of the other clubs in the top half of the table? Or are the worst players at a club that’s in a title race good enough to start for all but the best 4 or 5 teams in the league?

Talking starting XI only. Obviously a squad can include an experienced journey-man or two, with some yong and lernin kids making up numbers.

My personal opinion is that it’s the really top players in any given team that influence the eventual league position. If you’ve got a few legitimate world class stars then you can accommodate a similar number of water carriers without doing much damage to your league campaign.

Discuss.

 

[VanKenny]

Lest divide it by tiers (relative to their position):

S: Best in history
A+: Best in the world
A-: Best in the league
B+: Starter for top 4 club
B-: Starter for 8-5 club
C+: Slightly higher than mediocre relative to the league (squad player for any top 8 club)
C-: Mediocre



To win the league, id say you can get away with 2-3 C+ players, as long as you have top quality on the other positions. To use United's last game's starting XI as an example:

-De Gea (B-)
- Shaw (B+)
- Maguire (B+)
- Lindelof (C+)
- Wan Bissaka (B+)
- Matic (C+)
- Fred (C+)
- Pogba (B+)
-Bruno Fernandes (A-)
- Greenwood (C+)
- Martial (C+)




Of course i just pulled all of this out of my bottom so take it as you will

 

[Red Stone]

Danny Simpson is the answer to this question.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

You also need a WC management team which knows what they are doing.

 

[cotumely]

Lest divide it by tiers (relative to their position):

S: Best in history
A+: Best in the world
A-: Best in the league
B+: Starter for top 4 club
B-: Starter for 8-5 club
C+: Slightly higher than mediocre relative to the league (squad player for any top 8 club)
C-: Mediocre



To win the league, id say you can get away with 2-3 C+ players, as long as you have top quality on the other positions. To use United's last game's starting XI as an example:

-De Gea (B-)
- Shaw (B+)
- Maguire (B+)
- Lindelof (C+)
- Wan Bissaka (B+)
- Matic (C+)
- Fred (C+)
- Pogba (B+)
-Bruno Fernandes (A-)
- Greenwood (C+)
- Martial (C+)




Of course i just pulled all of this out of my bottom so take it as you will

Which top-4 club would AWB be a starter for other than United? Not Chelsea, Liverpool or City.

 

[giorno]

You can win as long as you don't have weak links. Players who aren't great can work fine, but they cannot have a massive, easy-to-exploit weakness

 

[sullydnl]

I'm sure there have been some pretty dire players who featured heavily for league winning sides.

The key issue with our midfield say isn't just that we have players who aren't all that good but also they don't really gel together in a coherent way. Whereas I would guess most of the times when a weak player forms part of a league winning side the team is set-up and coached in such a way that their weakness isn't as much of an issue.

So basically "very bad" would be my guess, as long as the team functions as a unit regardless. Good coaching ameliorates a lot of problems.

 

[Martialfc]

Tom Cleverley.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Most United fans seem to think our worst 3 or 4 players are worse than their equivalent at most top half clubs. I found myself thinking this at the weekend. Southampton are one of the favourites for relegation but is Martial really any better as a striker than the two who played against us? Would Matic start ahead of Romeu? And so on.

So the question is, can a team win the league with two or three regular starters that might struggle to get a game at any of the other clubs in the top half of the table? Or are the worst players at a club that’s in a title race good enough to start for all but the best 4 or 5 teams in the league?

Talking starting XI only. Obviously a squad can include an experienced journey-man or two, with some yong and lernin kids making up numbers.

My personal opinion is that it’s the really top players in any given team that influence the eventual league position. If you’ve got a few legitimate world class stars then you can accommodate a similar number of water carriers without doing much damage to your league campaign.

Discuss.

Actually there's a decent bit of data suggesting that this isn't the case - and more often than not, it's the relative quality of the worst player in the XI that is a better predictor of league success than the quality of the best player in the XI:

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/why-your-teams-star-player-nowhere-near-important-you-think

It's down to this notion of strong-link vs. weak-link sports - a sport like basketball, which is 5v5, high-scoring, and where it's almost impossible to double-mark someone out of the game without seriously compromising the defense is a sport more often decided by which team has the better player overall. But in football where overall it's more difficult for a top quality player to create a goal than it is for a dimwit to create one for the opposition, the latter is often more influential - making it a weak-link sport.

 

[ReallyUSA]

Lest divide it by tiers (relative to their position):

S: Best in history
A+: Best in the world
A-: Best in the league
B+: Starter for top 4 club
B-: Starter for 8-5 club
C+: Slightly higher than mediocre relative to the league (squad player for any top 8 club)
C-: Mediocre



To win the league, id say you can get away with 2-3 C+ players, as long as you have top quality on the other positions. To use United's last game's starting XI as an example:

-De Gea (B-)
- Shaw (B+)
- Maguire (B+)
- Lindelof (C+)
- Wan Bissaka (B+)
- Matic (C+)
- Fred (C+)
- Pogba (B+)
-Bruno Fernandes (A-)
- Greenwood (C+)
- Martial (C+)




Of course i just pulled all of this out of my bottom so take it as you will

oh boy, good luck

 

[Leonzo1]

Liverpool steam rolled the league 2 years ago with plenty of sub-par players. They literally had maybe 1-2 decent options from the bench and thats it. Chelsea won the league with Victor Moses as a starting right back. Leicester's title winning team was extremely average aside from their star players. Brendan Rodger's Liverpool came incredibly close to the title while being carried exclusively by Suarez and Sturridge.

You can win the League with a weak bench, you can win the league with a couple of average players in your XI, and you can win the league while being carried by your star players. It's all about how the team is managed and how the squad is being used.

 

[Siezard]

Nathan Ake was pretty bad. All he does is give away free throws and free kicks to opponents. And Bournemouth got relegated. Guess who played against Spurs in their 1-0 loss and against Leicester in charity shield? Not sure how Man City recognized it and they replaced him with Dias almost immediately.

Grealish is the reverse. All he ever does is slow things down and win free kicks. Not someone I will pay 100 mil for if the club can afford Messi on a free transfer.

 

[mshnsh]

We won the league with Phil Jones, Cleverly, Shinji Kagawa, Evans etc in Furgeson's last season.

 

[Gio]

I think City and Liverpool have raised the bar in recent seasons. If it takes 90+ points to win the league, I don't think you can carry much lesser quality to get there.

Astute tactics and squad management obviously make a difference though. Conte and Ferguson have provided good examples of that in the last decade.

 

[acnumber9]

Which top-4 club would AWB be a starter for other than United? Not Chelsea, Liverpool or City.

You’ve answered your own question.

 

[Mr Smith]

Lest divide it by tiers (relative to their position):

S: Best in history
A+: Best in the world
A-: Best in the league
B+: Starter for top 4 club
B-: Starter for 8-5 club
C+: Slightly higher than mediocre relative to the league (squad player for any top 8 club)
C-: Mediocre



To win the league, id say you can get away with 2-3 C+ players, as long as you have top quality on the other positions. To use United's last game's starting XI as an example:

-De Gea (B-)
- Shaw (B+)
- Maguire (B+)
- Lindelof (C+)
- Wan Bissaka (B+)
- Matic (C+)
- Fred (C+)
- Pogba (B+)
-Bruno Fernandes (A-)
- Greenwood (C+)
- Martial (C+)




Of course i just pulled all of this out of my bottom so take it as you will

Why do you hate Mason Greenwood?

 

[RedDevilzFox]

This place just loves to make excuses and think unless we have a world beater in every position and glazers have spent another 500M we shouldn't expect to win the league. Give this exact team to Pep or Klopp and they win the league, no doubt in my mind.

 

[SinNombre]

Why do you hate Mason Greenwood?

It is an utter shambles of a list.

Shaw and Davies are the top 2 left backs in the world right now. B+

 

[Mr.Ridiculous__]

Lest divide it by tiers (relative to their position):

S: Best in history
A+: Best in the world
A-: Best in the league
B+: Starter for top 4 club
B-: Starter for 8-5 club
C+: Slightly higher than mediocre relative to the league (squad player for any top 8 club)
C-: Mediocre



To win the league, id say you can get away with 2-3 C+ players, as long as you have top quality on the other positions. To use United's last game's starting XI as an example:

-De Gea (B-)
- Shaw (B+)
- Maguire (B+)
- Lindelof (C+)
- Wan Bissaka (B+)
- Matic (C+)
- Fred (C+)
- Pogba (B+)
-Bruno Fernandes (A-)
- Greenwood (C+)
- Martial (C+)




Of course i just pulled all of this out of my bottom so take it as you will

Regardless, I liked that post.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

We would need to look at recent titles winners to get an idea on this.

Man City 2020/21
Mendy - 20 Apps

Probably about it, I know some don't rate Zinchenko too highly but he has proven a decent player. Some would even argue Mendy is good going forward but it feels like he is a big weakness in that City side. Ake made 13 Apps but I wouldn't consider him a bad player, just average to decent. Mendy is injury prone too and not a regular starter for City.

Liverpool 2019/20
Origi - 42 Apps
Adrian - 18 Apps
Lovren - 15 Apps

Arguably the three worst players in that Liverpool title winning squad and none of them were regulars. Origi's appearances are made up of late substitute appearances. Fair to say that Liverpool starting eleven, with everyone fit, had no bad players.

So on the basis of the two most recent title winning squads - the answer is 0 bad players in your starting eleven in order to win the title. But you can get away with bit part players like Mendy or Origi.

 

[RedSky]

I think City and Liverpool have raised the bar in recent seasons. If it takes 90+ points to win the league, I don't think you can carry much lesser quality to get there.

Astute tactics and squad management obviously make a difference though. Conte and Ferguson have provided good examples of that in the last decade.

That's the common sense answer. Using player examples of a bygone era is basically redundant. I don't think you can carry shite players anymore, even as squad players its tough as it's very much a squad game these days and the opposition has improved as they've got more money to throw around.

 

[11101]

Lest divide it by tiers (relative to their position):

S: Best in history
A+: Best in the world
A-: Best in the league
B+: Starter for top 4 club
B-: Starter for 8-5 club
C+: Slightly higher than mediocre relative to the league (squad player for any top 8 club)
C-: Mediocre

I like the system, but your gradings are all wrong. You're kidding yourself if you think any of our main players wouldn't at a bare minimum start for a top 5-8 club.

- De Gea (B-)
- Shaw (A-)
- Maguire (B+)
- Lindelof (B+)
- Wan Bissaka (B+)
- McTominay (B-)
- Fred (B-)
- Pogba (A-)
- Bruno Fernandes (A-)
- Greenwood (B-)
- Rashford (B+)
- Martial (B-)

Then you have the two new boys

Sancho (B+)
Varane (A-)

We had plenty of league winners over the years who were not stars, but did an effective job when they were asked to. O'Shea, Park, P. Neville, Ole, Hernandez etc. They were all B players.

For me a first 11 needs to have at minimum all B+ players, but you can have have a couple of B- in there if they're next to an A player. So, assuming Varane is still as good as he used to be, we possibly need one of the centre mids upgrading and Martial needs replacing. We also need to get rid of the C players like Matic.



TLDR we need a midfielder and a striker.

 

[laughtersassassin]

I like the system, but your gradings are all wrong. You're kidding yourself if you think any of our main players wouldn't at a bare minimum start for a top 5-8 club.

- De Gea (B-)
- Shaw (A-)
- Maguire (B+)
- Lindelof (B+)
- Wan Bissaka (B+)
- McTominay (B-)
- Fred (B-) )
- Pogba (A-)
- Bruno Fernandes (A-)
- Greenwood (B-)
- Rashford (B+)
- Martial (B-)

Then you have the two new boys

Sancho (B+)
Varane (A-)

We had plenty of league winners over the years who were not stars, but did an effective job when they were asked to. O'Shea, Park, P. Neville, Ole, Hernandez etc. They were all B players.

For me a first 11 needs to have at minimum all B+ players, but you can have have a couple of B- in there if they're next to an A player. So, assuming Varane is still as good as he used to be, we possibly need one of the centre mids upgrading and Martial needs replacing. We also need to get rid of the C players like Matic.



TLDR we need a midfielder and a striker.

My ranking would be:

- De Gea (B-)
- Shaw (A-)
- Maguire (B+)
- Lindelof (B-)
- Wan Bissaka (B-)
- McTominay (C)
- Fred (C-) (Puts in the most F performances in a season of any player we have)
- Pogba (A-)
- Bruno Fernandes (A-)
- Greenwood (B+)
- Rashford (B+)
- Martial (C+) His form is from too long ago

Then you have the two new boys

Sancho (B+)
Varane (A-)


And
Cavani (B)
Henderson (B-)
Matic (D)
VDB (NA)
Telles (C-)
Mata (D)
Amad (C)
James (C)

 

[Mike Smalling]

In 2012/13 our starting line-up based on most appearances in the league would be something like this:

De Gea
Rafael - Ferdinand - Evans - Evra
Valencia - Carrick - Cleverley - Young
Rooney - Van Persie

Add to that a significant number of appearances from the likes of Welbeck, Giggs, Kagawa, Jones. That's definitely not a great line-up, but we had Van Persie playing amazing and fairly weak seasons from our main competitors.

I don't think you could win the current league season with this. You can already see how much it is hurting us to have a offensively challenged RB and average midfielders.

 

[K Stand Knut]

Danny Simpson is the answer to this question.

Benjamin Mendy and Zinchenko as more recent examples

 

[VanDeBank]

Bütnner

/thread.

 

[do.ob]

It depends on the setup, for example I think Klopp can get a lot out of players, who aren't extremely talented as long as they follow instructions and work hard, whereas Guardiola's football, on average, requires more talented individuals. But he can also carry a player or two if they fit a certain role.

 

[shamans]

This place just loves to make excuses and think unless we have a world beater in every position and glazers have spent another 500M we shouldn't expect to win the league. Give this exact team to Pep or Klopp and they win the league, no doubt in my mind.

We just signed Sancho and varane and latest is we need Kane now to beat Southampton..

 

[Wilt]

Lest divide it by tiers (relative to their position):

S: Best in history
A+: Best in the world
A-: Best in the league
B+: Starter for top 4 club
B-: Starter for 8-5 club
C+: Slightly higher than mediocre relative to the league (squad player for any top 8 club)
C-: Mediocre



To win the league, id say you can get away with 2-3 C+ players, as long as you have top quality on the other positions. To use United's last game's starting XI as an example:

-De Gea (B-)
- Shaw (B+)
- Maguire (B+)
- Lindelof (C+)
- Wan Bissaka (B+)
- Matic (C+)
- Fred (C+)
- Pogba (B+)
-Bruno Fernandes (A-)
- Greenwood (C+)
- Martial (C+)




Of course i just pulled all of this out of my bottom so take it as you will

You’ve rated Greenwood the same as Martial ?

Think you should shove Greenwood back up your bottom and try again….

 

[Siezard]

Which top-4 club would AWB be a starter for other than United? Not Chelsea, Liverpool or City.

I don't think AWB is the biggest problem though. Martial is the biggest problem. Can he get back to his greatest form?

 

[Oldyella]

Bütnner

/thread.

We are in a post Bütnner world now though, sadly. State funded super squads leave too little margin for error to carry the odd water carrier.

 

[JB7]

People putting Martial and Matic on a par with Greenwood

 

[Oranges038]

Darron Gibson.

 

[red_de_pologne]

With an A- manager or a C+ one?

 

[abundance]

Then you have the two new boys

Sancho (B+)
Varane (A-)

sheesh you Brits really have no clue about CBs

 

[Semper Fudge]

sheesh you Brits really have no clue about CBs

Ah yes, lump an entire nationality in together. Excellent work.

 

[OleTheGreat]

Different players perform differently in different circumstances and by that I mean in different teams. Therefore I think it is unfair to judge players based on one particular aspect. Except one thing though, we can definitely adjudge the best player in history and in the league because a world class player performs well regardless of the situation he's thrown in and I personally think we have a few in our team as well. Bruno, Cavani, Varane and Sancho. I know I'm getting ahead with the latter two but You'll see, they're just CLASS! I really wished Pogba was one of them but he didn't shine or carry the team like Bruno did.

 

[11101]

sheesh you Brits really have no clue about CBs

Yeah, played every minute of every game when France won the World Cup, and played virtually every minute he's been available in 4 Champions League wins. Shit player, that.

 

[Ali Dia]

Tom Cleverley.

close thread

 

[Smores]

This place just loves to make excuses and think unless we have a world beater in every position and glazers have spent another 500M we shouldn't expect to win the league. Give this exact team to Pep or Klopp and they win the league, no doubt in my mind.

This very much so and then you'll get the "yeah but now it's different" in response.

Ever since Fergie left our players ability has always been judged on how much people like the manager. Same season after season.