giggs-beckham
Clueless
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- Sep 9, 2007
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I'm not convinced its specifically coached and looks more like the players being up for it. I'm no expert though.Try do it better yourself. I thought we had a pressing philosophy?
I'm not convinced its specifically coached and looks more like the players being up for it. I'm no expert though.Try do it better yourself. I thought we had a pressing philosophy?
I don't think most people realise, that the high pressing team is actually trying to force you to hit the ball long. Getting a turnover in your own half is actually just the occasional bonus and a goal from it an even rarer bonus, but they're forcing you to hit it long so they can get a hold of the ball again.You rarely lose possession at the edge of your box but you will lose the ball around 50 percent of the time if you lump it forward. It's a terrible idea, particularly when you play against a team that is good at retaining possession.
No one is more vulnerable in playing style to the high press than Pogba! I can remember at least 4 occasions he has been dispossessed and a goal has resulted. I remember that happening to Scholes once in his entire United time.Maguire and Matic dwell on the ball for too long, Bissaka is just poor at football when he has to control and kick it, and our goal keeper hardly makes the right decision. Pogba is often clumsy with it but getting a CDM who is press resistant and a right back that is not terrified of the ball will be a start.
Are you surprised. It’s been the norm for the past 6 years. Buy new players then buy new players to replace the new players.I mean this is all obvious stuff to everyone but man utd fans. For who'm the solution is always BUY MORE PLAYERS.
Don't agree. Pogba sometimes makes the wrong decision on the ball either due to lack of awareness or overconfidence. Otherwise he's excellent at using his body and technique to evade the press. There are other players who are more vulnerable, mainly the ones with poorer technique on the ball who can be forced into errors more easily.No one is more vulnerable in playing style to the high press than Pogba! I can remember at least 4 occasions he has been dispossessed and a goal has resulted. I remember that happening to Scholes once in his entire United time.
Exactly. And it's not as if we are great at pressing and can afford to lose the ball cheaply.I don't think most people realise, that the high pressing team is actually trying to force you to hit the ball long. Getting a turnover in your own half is actually just the occasional bonus and a goal from it an even rarer bonus, but they're forcing you to hit it long so they can get a hold of the ball again.
Why can't we be both? Why can't we just adapt when it suits? We've seen many times teams becoming unstuck when dogmatically sticking to one system and not adapting when the opposition changes tacticsYou called it right. We are a counter attacking team who also wants to control possession, whilst being an exciting attacking team (United way). Probably explains why we are both confused.
Someone at the club needs to decide what they want to do.
Nearly every time you lose possession at the edge of your box leads to a chance for the opposition. Kick and rush is not pretty. But it's sometimes something you can employ when playing it out the back is visibly not working. Doesn't have to be your default mode.You rarely lose possession at the edge of your box but you will lose the ball around 50 percent of the time if you lump it forward. It's a terrible idea, particularly when you play against a team that is good at retaining possession.
What's shocking is when a weapon like Greenwood is hacked time and time again, and not afforded any protection, not even a yellowOles main focus now has to be on getting the ball into our front line quicker and more consistently. I fully believe we have one of the most dangerous attacks in the league but it’s noticeable how little we supply them in certain games. I don’t think it’s our attackers fault that we just don’t get the ball into them quick enough. This is partly why Martial comes under so much stick for having quiet games, when the reality is that he is dependent on his team mates getting the ball into the final third (this is the same for all strikers btw!).
This is the final tactical evolution for this team and that might yet still take afew additional signings, especially in defence and midfield so we can be more comfortable beating the press and getting direct balls to the front men. If we can generate 30 minute spells where we can camp the edge of the opposition box then with our firepower that will be enough to beat anyone. Against Chelsea we just couldn’t generate that spell.
It’s kind of shocking that we have a weapon like Greenwood in the team and yet we can’t craft even 1 big chance a game for him. That’s the key, give these guys opportunities and they are deadly.
The team sitting top of the league hit more long balls than anyone. No issue with being direct if you’re accurate and you play higher up the pitch. Our team plays too deep. We basically played a 5-2-1-2 yesterday and seemed surprised that we couldn’t get the ball out of our own defensive third.I don't think most people realise, that the high pressing team is actually trying to force you to hit the ball long. Getting a turnover in your own half is actually just the occasional bonus and a goal from it an even rarer bonus, but they're forcing you to hit it long so they can get a hold of the ball again.
Which is the point of the thread, how do you systematically beat the high press?Nearly every time you lose possession at the edge of your box leads to a chance for the opposition. Kick and rush is not pretty. But it's sometimes something you can employ when playing it out the back is visibly not working. Doesn't have to be your default mode.
Also if teams see you're trying to play it out the back regardless of how well it works for you, they'll keep persisting even if they are not good at retaining possession themselves. Soton pressed us into mistakes when we could have cleared and counter pressed to retrieve the ball higher up the pitch. If we had done that and they realise that pressing doesn't work on its primary aim (retrieving the ball high up the pitch) considering the effort it takes, they would have eventually relented instead of being encouraged by what they saw.
Veron,Rio...there's an endless list. Need to stop being so casualNo one is more vulnerable in playing style to the high press than Pogba! I can remember at least 4 occasions he has been dispossessed and a goal has resulted. I remember that happening to Scholes once in his entire United time.
Coming down to personnel.Which is the point of the thread, how do you systematically beat the high press?
They have the second amount of short passes in the league and are in the bottom half in long passes.The team sitting top of the league hit more long balls than anyone. No issue with being direct if you’re accurate and you play higher up the pitch. Our team plays too deep. We basically played a 5-2-1-2 yesterday and seemed surprised that we couldn’t get the ball out of our own defensive third.
A high press has two risks: one is fatigue and the other is that you're open to counter attacks either through long balls or simply quick transitions. If the team pressing is getting undone on the counter/long ball they will quickly abandon. If they see you are playing long ball, they will persist for a while but eventually stop to conserve energy. If they see you are dawdling with the ball, making mistakes and surrendering possession near your box, they will pursue with even more vigour because they can sense a scoring chance coming from a mistake.I don't think most people realise, that the high pressing team is actually trying to force you to hit the ball long. Getting a turnover in your own half is actually just the occasional bonus and a goal from it an even rarer bonus, but they're forcing you to hit it long so they can get a hold of the ball again.
You assume football players are very intelligent. It’s far easier to build a cohesive team if the bases of play is always the same. Yes you can make tactically adjustments depending on certain games. But playing style should always be the same.Why can't we be both? Why can't we just adapt when it suits? We've seen many times teams becoming unstuck when dogmatically sticking to one system and not adapting when the opposition changes tactics
I'm unsure, if you had the likes of Matic/Bruno playing better balls into areas it often causes the opposition defenders to head it into space before we collect in a better area of the pitch. Sure, other players may well hoof it but I can see value in a longer ball into channels. We were playing it out on foot far too much that what we were comfortable with yesterday, and even vs Southampton.Playing it long means that you are going to lose the ball even more. Have you guys checked the aerial duel percentages? There is a reason why dominant teams play from the back.
Most technical players are comfortable with it, it's not special. But as I said in an other thread, I don't think that there is a player outside of PSG ready to make the step up, the promising players are all very young.Coming down to personnel.
Any good French players in Ligue 1 comfortable with the system?
You try playing it out the back at first but if the players targeted are failing at maintaining possession and the ball is turned over with too high a frequency in your side of the pitch, I'd rather have that happen in the opposition half instead. You have a starting tactic but you tailor your approach to how the game is panning out with a clear and trained alternative.Which is the point of the thread, how do you systematically beat the high press?
Which is an emergency plan, not a winning strategy. What you are describing has nothing to do with beating the high press but is entirely about damage limitation. It's like suggesting to call the firefighters in a question about how to avoid a bushfire.You try playing it out the back at first but if the players targeted are failing at maintaining possession and the ball is turned over with too high a frequency in your side of the pitch, I'd rather have that happen in the opposition half instead. You have a starting tactic but you tailor your approach to how the game is panning out with a clear and trained alternative.
The problem is neither Rashford or James ran the channels. The first goal came from Aziplicueta crossing the ball, that was the 3rd CB, surely when a team plays 3 at the back and we went with 2 up top, you try exploit the gaps between CB and Wing back.I'm unsure, if you had the likes of Matic/Bruno playing better balls into areas it often causes the opposition defenders to head it into space before we collect in a better area of the pitch. Sure, other players may well hoof it but I can see value in a longer ball into channels. We were playing it out on foot far too much that what we were comfortable with yesterday, and even vs Southampton.
Exactly - this comes into how the team is drilled in my opinion. I found it bizzare seeing Dan James come short when we were trying top play out from the back. Rashford was doing similar but I think he was torn between the two, and is capable of bringing it from deep and dragging players up the pitch. In any case I hope we don't see a 3 at the back for a while. We dont have the players for it.The problem is neither Rashford or James ran the channels. The first goal came from Aziplicueta crossing the ball, that was the 3rd CB, surely when a team plays 3 at the back and we went with 2 up top, you try exploit the gaps between CB and Wing back.
If James or Rashford made runs, all we had to do is find a semi decent ball over the top.
It depends how well trained you are at sending and retrieving long balls. A press does not only get undone by quick triangles and playing through it. Direct balls have the same effect if strikers can retrieve them. The more you train for that, the better the success rate you'll have (as with anything) and less inclined the opposition will be to press you. If your strikers are not Fellaini/Ibra-sized instead of aiming balls to their heads you get them to drop deep, create space and if the defenders follow them you aim diagonal balls behind the line of defence for them to chase against the CBs.Which is an emergency plan, not a winning strategy. What you are describing has nothing to do with beating the high press but is entirely about damage limitation.
If you want to play possession then you can't have Dan James playing up top with Rashford. None of them have hold up play. It was a bizzare tactic we used. When the opposition is so high up, you play out from the back, you make 4 passes and then what? go back to the CB because there is no option up top.Exactly - this comes into how the team is drilled in my opinion. I found it bizzare seeing Dan James come short when we were trying top play out from the back. Rashford was doing similar but I think he was torn between the two, and is capable of bringing it from deep and dragging players up the pitch. In any case I hope we don't see a 3 at the back for a while. We dont have the players for it.
This is also a fair point, but it remains out of our control. Creating chances not so much!What's shocking is when a weapon like Greenwood is hacked time and time again, and not afforded any protection, not even a yellow
Not according to the Premier League’s own website. I exaggerated saying the most mind you. They’re sitting 5th for long balls there with United bottom. We aren’t direct enough.They have the second amount of short passes in the league and are in the bottom half in long passes.
That’s a consequence of us playing too deep to accommodate slow centre backs.Other major issue is how far Fernandes has been playing away from the other 2 midfielders. If you watch City they'll have all 3 midfielders - and sometimes even Jesus - all within 20 yards of each other, able to ping it between themselves and get around it.
My math were bad. We have a similar ratio though, 89.6% of their passes are short when 90.7% of our passes are short.Not according to the Premier League’s own website. I exaggerated saying the most mind you. They’re sitting 5th for long balls there with United bottom. We aren’t direct enough.
They get the ball up the pitch much quicker than United. That’s evident from just watching them. They also play higher up the pitch. I don’t want to make this a Liverpool v Man United thing or fall into this trap that copying Liverpool is the only way to success that many do but we are too slow in moving it forward and it’s made more difficult by sitting on top of our own box in possession.My math were bad. We have a similar ratio though, 89.6% of their passes are short when 90.7% of our passes are short.
That's a different point, they do play faster but they use a similar proportion of short passes and are significantly more on the ball than we are, 59.6% against 54.6%.They get the ball up the pitch much quicker than United. That’s evident from just watching them. They also play higher up the pitch. I don’t want to make this a Liverpool v Man United thing or fall into this trap that copying Liverpool is the only way to success that many do but we are too slow in moving it forward and it’s made more difficult by sitting on top of our own box in possession.
Disagree. You're going long and leaving two against two or three. It's a tactic to influence the other team into not wanting to stay high an compress the pitch (aiding their press and squashing you back towards your own goal) or dropping back as a unit because the gap between midfield and defence is gaping that someone like bruno is always free. It's solely to affect them and "disincentivise" their high line or high press.You rarely lose possession at the edge of your box but you will lose the ball around 50 percent of the time if you lump it forward. It's a terrible idea, particularly when you play against a team that is good at retaining possession.
Again disagree. You don't lose the ball on the edge of your box, just twenty yards in front of it.Exactly. And it's not as if we are great at pressing and can afford to lose the ball cheaply.
What are you talking about?Again disagree. You don't lose the ball on the edge of your box, just twenty yards in front of it.