BluesJr
Owns the moral low ground
- Joined
- May 15, 2013
- Messages
- 9,052
Flawless tbh. I can tell within seconds.
Oh thanks! So it's about 2 years since the qualifiers to the finals?Cutoff is when qualifier starts, not the tournament. Else you'd have one team qualifying and another entering.
It’s usually something to do with your age during the qualifiers. I’m guessing UEFA don’t want the whole team who played through qualification to have to sit out the tournament.Serious question how did he played the U21 euro when he's 22, almost 23?
Pure wingers and CB’s are the easiest quite clearly for me. You watch a CB with pace that’s also comfortable on the ball under pressure and has a nice level of technicality and you can see that he’ll be a solid player for a big club at bare minimum. Wingers are a bit tougher but in general it’s easy to watch someone like Garnacho who has elite take on ability and pace to go along with some decent ball striking and project him to be a useful senior player even if he isn’t a superstar.Thanks man!
It’s pretty impressive that you mention Xavi. His style of play doesn’t exactly lend itself to early recognition of talent. Which probably brings another question: what position and style of play are easiest to recognise greatness in early? I mean, no one should get too much Kudos for recognising that a 17 yr old Michael Owen would be as good as he was. But a 17 yr old Scholes? Modric? It’s nowhere near as clear cut.
I think this is largely true and its also why so few midfielders ever get brought through from the academy successfully by top six clubs in the PL. The tactical requirements are really high for this position, most loans don't really expose players in a way that prepares them well for the level, and if you have a young midfielder who isn't on the same page as the rest of the side or who is a bit of a hothead that wants to do his own thing, it can ruin a match completely.Midfielders are by far the most difficult, because it’s one of the more instinctive and cerebral positions and it’s where the game speeds up the most as you go up the leagues. Development is also supremely dependent on the clubs tactics and how they are used. The only way to really see is if they get thrown into a high level match and see how they cope. It’s why I don’t love just instantly loaning technical mids out to the Championship “just to get minutes”. You could have a fantastic tempo setting prospect, but if you stick him in some highly physical/grafting side that doesn’t see much of the ball people will think he’s crap and he won’t improve even if he’s playing every week.
Yeah, the reality is it’s easier for these top clubs to sell these midfield prospects for a bit of value and have a buyback clause without having to trust a teenager in a crucial position on the pitch.Especially in the PL, you don’t really get weeks where you can just stick a young kid out there without worrying about the match outcome like Bayern, Barca, or some serie A teams can.I think this is largely true and its also why so few midfielders ever get brought through from the academy successfully by top six clubs in the PL. The tactical requirements are really high for this position, most loans don't really expose players in a way that prepares them well for the level, and if you have a young midfielder who isn't on the same page as the rest of the side or who is a bit of a hothead that wants to do his own thing, it can ruin a match completely.
Not counting guys who really were attacking midfielders like Mount, the best true CMs successfully brought through from the academy by top six sides in the last 10-12 years have probably been McTominay, Loftus-Cheek, Gallagher, and Winks, which really says it all. Foden and TAA both could have been brought through as central midfielders but Pep and Klopp preferred to integrate them in other roles that required less tactical consistency and experience. Arteta took one look at Guendouzi's lack of tactical nous and shipped him away and Pep preferred to sign a limited DM like Kalvin Phillips rather than take a risk on Lavia.
I thought Mainoo was very impressive in his limited minutes last season and in the pre-season friendly vs Leeds.It might sound stupid but for whatever reason I found it easier to see greatness in the midield players. Just those little neat and tidy guys that never lost the ball. For some reason I remember I think Ron Atkinson of all people commenting on what a player Xavi seemed to be. He played at Old Trafford at 17 or so and just seemed absolutely at ease. It was something special.
I think personally it's easier to see brilliance in wide forward players / wingers... But I love Traore and Saint-Maximin. I'm convinced that Wilfrid Zaha would have been a world beater for Sir Alex Ferguson. Arguably one of Moyes mistakes perception wise was prioritising Januzaj and sidelining Zaha. But we will never know. I think the career Zaha has gone on to have is fine but maybe there should have been more.
Back to the midfield players - Mainoo impressed me with the limited minutes I've seen him play. Not seen him play tonight but the one time I saw him he looked a league above some of the other youth players we've got. Just that comfort on the ball.
Truer words have never been spoken on this forumThe famous Harry Redknapp press conference where a West Ham fan tells him that Frank Lampard will never make it as a player (while Lampard is sitting there) is always a good reminder of the difference between armchair/internet fans judging young players versus actual football people seeing them every day in training.
Plus I remember Beckham’s first season for us and thinking he was absolutely dreadful and would never amount to anything.
That said it’s probably a sad indictment of our academy that there have been so few exciting young players emerge that make you think “yeah he definitely could be a starter in a few years time”, Garnacho probably the exception
If we are that good we will be working as football scoutI think we're all terrible, to be honest
Pure wingers and CB’s are the easiest quite clearly for me. You watch a CB with pace that’s also comfortable on the ball under pressure and has a nice level of technicality and you can see that he’ll be a solid player for a big club at bare minimum. Wingers are a bit tougher but in general it’s easy to watch someone like Garnacho who has elite take on ability and pace to go along with some decent ball striking and project him to be a useful senior player even if he isn’t a superstar.
Midfielders are by far the most difficult, because it’s one of the more instinctive and cerebral positions and it’s where the game speeds up the most as you go up the leagues. Development is also supremely dependent on the clubs tactics and how they are used. The only way to really see is if they get thrown into a high level match and see how they cope. It’s why I don’t love just instantly loaning technical mids out to the Championship “just to get minutes”. You could have a fantastic tempo setting prospect, but if you stick him in some highly physical/grafting side that doesn’t see much of the ball people will think he’s crap and he won’t improve even if he’s playing every week.
Bit harsh on Elanga mate, full Sweden international and 50 appearances for United. I’d class him a success. He’ll certainly have a top flight career in the top 5 leagues. There’s plenty more forwards who’ve played for the academy in recent years that are down in the lower leagues right now.Assume they're all shite and you wont go far wrong. For every Garnacho there are 20 Elangas.
Countless numbers of youngsters we've had on the outskirts of the first team who got massively overhyped and vanished into the ether, Iqbal and Mainoo the latest. Best midfielder we've produced in the last two decades is McTominay, and the second best probably Pereira. Says it all.
Similar story with defenders. Best we've done there probably Michael Keane.
You can make the same prediction for the entire world academies, the hit rate is very low.If you’d predicted that every one of our academy players of the last 30 years (post CO92) “won’t make it at United” then you’d have a pretty good % hit rate!
I think many people thought the same about those two. I think the talent was there, perhaps they just made their big moves too early and couldn't cope with the pressure?I remember absolutely raving to my big-club supporting mates when we sold Titus Bramble to Newcastle, and Richard Wright to Arsenal. I guaranteed to them that they would be England’s first choice GK and CB for the next decade. Ahem..
I think it was fairly obviously attitude with Bramble, combined with making his debut at 16 and it going to his head.I think many people thought the same about those two. I think the talent was there, perhaps they just made their big moves too early and couldn't cope with the pressure?
I remember watching Zidane at Bordeaux and thinking what a signing he'd be for United.Mostly good at telling people a youth player isn't good enough to play for our first team when they convince themselves he is based on looking ok in a few reserve games.
Not so good at telling when someone will make it unless its blindingly obvious, and even then its hard to be sure because there's no way to gauge the mentality of the player. E.g. I thought Ravel Morrison would be a world beater, and Pogba basically the next Zidane. Obviously Pogba hasn't exactly had a bad career but he's nothing like the player I thought he'd develop into.
We've also had a lot of very technically good youngsters who I thought would have a chance and then just disappear off the football pyramid entirely, and others like Rashford who I never really saw breaking through in the way they have. Even Garnacho...I mean I thought he was pretty good but wouldn't have expected him to look nearly as good as he did last season.