I've read the previous pages and you can find people saying or suggesting he's overrated 
How good was Ronaldo #9?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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What is needed to be emphasised is the context of the time, of when he was the greatest. Football was more of a contact sport back then, compared to the football climate of today. Attacking players may have been protected back then, but not as much as they are today, not even close.
You could always have legitimate arguments of why either of Beckenbauer, Mattheus, Maradona, Pele, Zidane, Cristiano or Messi (and so forth, as the list continues..) are the greatest; but what stands out for the players before Cristiano&Messi is that football was more of a contact sport, even as late as in the 90's. Even if you look at the classic battles between Arsenal and United in the befinning of the 21st century, you'll notice that we will probably never see a physical rivalry such as that ever again (which Henry also mentioned in the Premier League 25 anniversary segment).
Another important aspect to emphasise is that there were no galacticos or super teams back then. The football landscape was quite even across Europe. Dynamo Kiev could win a CL group with Real Madrid, and later also with Barcelona in it (when Shevshenko and Rebrov made their breakthrough in the lime light). Even IFK Gothenbourg won their Champions League group, ahead of Manchester United, Barcelona and Galatasaray, and were sometimes outsiders to go far. Rosenborg eliminated AC Milan from CL, and so forth. And Ronaldo, in a league that subscribed all kinds of European finals and trophies (Milan, Juventus, Lazio, Roma, Fiorentina, Parma..), stood out in the same manner Messi and Cristiano stands out today, except that Ronaldo's era had far more tough circumstances and competition.Imagine the likes of Cristiano, Messi, Neymar, in a team that does not contain 70% of ballon d'or competition, and yet having the pressure to perform and carry the team as they do. It still needs to be point out that both Messi and Cristiano are phenomenal, and definitely players to tell your grandchildren about, but I can't imagine them be as consistent as they are, in the older eras.
So...to be able to dance past defenders, in such pace, with that technique, with that vision, in a time were defenders had license to kick the sh*t out of you, and in a time when there were potentially ballon d'or winners in every rival team, as there were at least 5-6 domestical rivals, and lots more across Europe... That is why I will always rate players from older era higher than the stars of today, because I seriously doubt any of today's stars would be able to perform at their top in that era, with such intensity and consistency.
Best striker/player I ever saw. The only player I believed would surpasss Pele and Maradona. Then injury set in......
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My hero and idol. It was a joy and honour to watch him play. He was simply El Phenom.
Simply incredible. If not for his lifestyle and injury there would be no debate who was the greatest ever. There is actually an intresting discussion between Rio and Jose about him during that tour round OT. They joke about if El Phenom had Ronaldo knee's. It's Jose reaction when he is brought up, you can see it's nothing but admiration. Would have been at Barca at the same time.
Simply incredible. If not for his lifestyle and injury there would be no debate who was the greatest ever. There is actually an intresting discussion between Rio and Jose about him during that tour round OT. They joke about if El Phenom had Ronaldo knee's. It's Jose reaction when he is brought up, you can see it's nothing but admiration. Would have been at Barca at the same time.
Inferior to Messi at his peak. Messi could do almost everything he could and more cant say the same reversed. However Ronaldo's strength, speed and explosiveness was astonishing.
1. Nowadays, great players are protected by the referee to avoid injuries and enable the beautiful game. Messi would have been physically destroyed in Italy in the 90s.
2. Make Messi play for the Inter side of the 90s with third-class offensive players like Djorkaeff, Zamorano... Messi isn't Maradona in terms of character
3. Serie A Context
97/98: Ronaldo scored 40 goals with Inter Milan - all competitions - with a dysfunctional team (for many reasons). Zamorano & Djorkaeff were able to score some goals but let's be clear: the only offensive threat was Ronaldo. No collective play.
Top scorers Inter Milan - 1997-98
Serie A
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Ronaldo 25 goals
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Youri Djorkaeff 8
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Diego Simeone 6
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Álvaro Recoba 3
- Zamorano: 1
98/02 - 4 seasons - he scored 24 goals with Inter in 40 games only because of 2 main major injuries.
Despite these major injuries - resulting in a decline of his capacities - he scored 9 goals in 10 games with Brazil and won the WC in 2002.
2002/06: he was still a very high-performing striker with Real: 83 goals + 18 assists in 127 LaLiga games.
#Context
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Messi isnt protected by tbe refs in anyway.
Well if the likes of Bierhoff could do it, then why couldnt Messi.
Look at Ronaldo's goals, most of them he has acres of space and with his speed and skill he can attack that perfectly.
But how would he fare against team that park the bus every week, 21 players on one half and playing in the tightest spaces every week, the entire match. That requires some vision, technique.
Hate this discussion, awful lot of nostalgia and people remembering Ronaldo at his absolute best and extrapolating that to his every game week, and using the current Messi who is past his absolute peak.
Yes, because team's never parked the bus back then, especially in the Serie A
What, catenaccio? Never heard of.@Sammyjunn
The refereeing has changed like it or not.
If you don't know how to recognize a great player, I can't do anything for you.
The refereeing has changed like it or not.
If you don't know how to recognize a great player, I can't do anything for you.
Yes, because team's never parked the bus back then, especially in the Serie A
Poor defenders and overly offensive tactical systems IIRC#Nostalgia
God no, Ronaldo comes second to me in my best of all time list. Just because I rate Messi better doesnt me I dont rate Luiz Ronaldo.
Catenaccio football isnt parking tbe bus no. It was very defensive and prioritised defensive stability, but the kind of anti-football Barcelona have faced in recent years is different to that. Teams just sitting in the box and clearing the ball away anytime you get it.Yes, because team's never parked the bus back then, especially in the Serie A
You talk about the Italian league like it wasn't the best defensive league in the last 40 or 50 years. And Ronaldo still tore it up. As he did in pretty much every league/competition he ever played in.
And Messi not protected by refs
How old were you when Ronaldo did his knee?
No problem mate
I have never written that X is better than Y.
I just mean Ronaldo has largely proven that he belongs to the small circle of legendary players, arguably in the top 10 with Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Beckenbaeur, Platini, Messi, Cristiano...
Nevertheless, teams did park the bus in different eras, it is nothing new - especially with Serie A teams. I would never call it anti football, it is just a legitimate attempt to neutralise an opponent- but that is a discussion for a different thread. And I certainly don't agree that Messi is not protected, I believe he is. I do think he doesn't dive as much as his colleagues across the world, but the refs are very quick to give him - as well as everybody else - free kicks for anything that makes him come off his balance.
However, it is your opinion that people here are too nostalgic, let that be the case, and it is fair. I for one will not attempt to persuade you to think different, I got my opinion, just like you got yours. All we can do is agree to disagree.
I fully agree with that, no doubt. I dont know where you make of that I dont think Ronaldo is great. After Messi imo the best player and forward I have ever seen.
I dont get these arguments, I havent disputed that. But simply saying it are different era's so it's difficult to compare. Ronaldo played a different type of football compared to Messi and Messi at his peak played a different type of football too, we dont know how both would fare if they switched era's, thats why arguments like Messi wouldnt cut it in that Serie A league are absolute rubbish to me. As would it be rubbish to say that Ronaldo couldnt perform to that standard in this era.You talk about the Italian league like it wasn't the best defensive league in the last 40 or 50 years. And Ronaldo still tore it up. As he did in pretty much every league/competition he ever played in.
And Messi not protected by refs
How old were you when Ronaldo did his knee?
Players like Messi and Ronaldo would cut it in every league, to some degree. But you are saying Messi is the greatest ever and anyone saying Ronaldo was better is just being nostalgic, when a huge number of people (including many great pros) say he is the best player they've ever seen.
Don't know if it was already mentioned in this thread but he is the great idol of Zlatan Ibrahimovic. He desired to follow in his footsteps and used to watch him do tricks on that PC before games to get in the right mood.
Boyhood Zlatan and Ronaldo
Boyhood Zlatan and Ronaldo
Catenaccio football and parking the bus football is different. Botb are very defensive and have strong emphasis on defence, bit catenaccio football was more a defensive approach to win matches, whilst parking the bus is a defensive approach not to lose matches.Nevertheless, teams did park the bus in different eras, it is nothing new - especially with Serie A teams. I would never call it anti football, it is just a legitimate attempt to neutralise an opponent- but that is a discussion for a different thread. And I certainly don't agree that Messi is not protected, I believe he is. I do think he doesn't dive as much as his colleagues across the world, but the refs are very quick to give him - as well as everybody else - free kicks for anything that makes him come off his balance.
However, it is your opinion that people here are too nostalgic, let that be the case, and it is fair. I for one will not attempt to persuade you to think different, I got my opinion, just like you got yours. All we can do is agree to disagree.
Catenaccio focused on effective man marking with the added libero too, but besides the defensive approach it still had the effectiveness of being able to counter attack.
Parking the bus is more based on zonal defending, crowding the most dangerous area of the pitch to concede goals out. Players stay in position and block almost all angles at goals.
Different styles of play are required to brake these down. Ronaldo had more 1 vs 1's thab Messi had, whilst Messi had to link up more with his teammates to break those buses down. They were both the absolute best in tgat at their times, but who knows how they'd do if they switched era's.
I do actually think nostalgia plays a role in these discussions, it would be fairer I think in 10 years time when both are retired and reviewed at their bests. You also gave threads like Zidane was better than Messi, which is just bullocks imo.
They use arguments like context that Serie a was different and less goals were scored, that is true yes. But Ronaldo never finished top scorer in the Serie a and the likes of Inzaghi, Bierhoff, Schevchenko, Crespo did. Whilst Messi has never been rivalled except by Ronaldo in terms of goals scored. The arguments some use to elevate Ronaldo and downgrade C Ronaldo and Messi are very unvalid. Go on about how they never won a WC, but dont say that Ronaldo never won a CL. Then saying that C Ronaldo and Messi played in better teams (Ronaldo played in the Galacticos), but then forget that Ronaldo probably played in the best ever NT, even if it didnt had Ronaldo.
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Sorry that is not what Im trying to imply, however I do think nostalgia plays some factor in these discussions. Comparing two retired players is more fair I think.
He was phenomenal in his early years, unfortunately injuries and his lifestyle hinder him. He could have been the greatest ever, incredible natural talent.
I still remember the hat trick he scored against us at OT and he was past his prime when he did that.
I still remember the hat trick he scored against us at OT and he was past his prime when he did that.
The best 9 ever. He had pace, power and so many skills. At his best he was utterly unplayable. Had he been fit today we'd be measuring CR7 and Messi against Ronaldo rather than Maradona and Pele.
Also this is going to sound controversial but I rate Zidane at a similar level. I don't know why people don't talk about him on the same level, maybe it's because he controlled games rather than scored goals, but he was also that same level of incredible, especially on the international stage.
Also this is going to sound controversial but I rate Zidane at a similar level. I don't know why people don't talk about him on the same level, maybe it's because he controlled games rather than scored goals, but he was also that same level of incredible, especially on the international stage.
Ronaldo was a beast. He was pretty much unplayable. I've never seen a striker who can run directly at two central defenders and find a way through to then get a goal. I'm not talking shifting left or right and really only taking on one with pace, I'm talking straight through the middle.
He could out muscle two central defenders, out skill anyone and his finishing was incredible.
It's a shame the injuries stopped him racking up the stats to take away any questions, but he already had certain stats like highest scorer in a world cup, until Klose beat that, but Ronaldo has a better goals to games ratio than Klose.
Its hard to compare him to Cristiano or Messi as their stats are on different levels, but neither have done in major tournaments what Ronaldo did and maybe that is where a fair comparison can be made.
He could out muscle two central defenders, out skill anyone and his finishing was incredible.
It's a shame the injuries stopped him racking up the stats to take away any questions, but he already had certain stats like highest scorer in a world cup, until Klose beat that, but Ronaldo has a better goals to games ratio than Klose.
Its hard to compare him to Cristiano or Messi as their stats are on different levels, but neither have done in major tournaments what Ronaldo did and maybe that is where a fair comparison can be made.
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Amazing, but still nothing on mbappe
As much as I love watching Brazilian over Portugues Ronaldo it's tough to argue that he was better. Maybe if we just look at a 1-2 year stretch, but anything beyond that has to be CR.
Don't think it's fair to compare their pure stats when looking at his time at Inter for example. Lower scoring league, had to face some of the best defenders ever. His team was strong, but no modern superteam with WC players on the bench.
I know he got outscored by Bierhoff, but if you watch summaries from his 97/98 season you'll notice he actually played pretty deep and did a lot of playmaking too.
Don't think it's fair to compare their pure stats when looking at his time at Inter for example. Lower scoring league, had to face some of the best defenders ever. His team was strong, but no modern superteam with WC players on the bench.
I know he got outscored by Bierhoff, but if you watch summaries from his 97/98 season you'll notice he actually played pretty deep and did a lot of playmaking too.
That's how most mid/low table italian teams played their away games in the 90s, so long as they weren't losing. Once they went down, they tried just a bit more on the counter. Everyone aside from the 7 sisters played for the 0-0 away, all the time. They even defended 1-0/2-0 scores against them against the big boys, not being humiliated was more important than getting points from those games
I wrote about teams parking the bus in previous eras as well in my previous post (especillay Serie A teams), and did not attempt on a discussion of Catenaccio. So you must have been in a hurry when you read that post? Because I did not argue about your thoughts on catenaccio, and I am not attempting to read your essay about it
There are probably many people rating Zidane higher than Messi, for different reasons, but you do realise that they are in complete different positions...It is almost as if you are taking it personal on Messi's behalf, but you do understand that rating someone higher than Messi does not imply that one think Messi is overrated...
And - once again - it is your stand that people are being too nostalgic, and don't think it is anyone's business to give you crap for it. I do agree that it is very difficult to compare players of different eras, for lots of reasons, hence it will forever be tough to have one undesputed Greatest of All Time. For me, as with some other fans, Ronaldo is the greatest (personally my top 3 G.O.A.T.) for different reasons, and he was the greatest for me when he was still active, as he is now a decade later. That does not mean that we don't enjoy or rate other stars of today and other eras as legends. As I mentioned in some posts earlier, there are perfect legitimate arguments to have either of Puskas, Di Stefano, Pele, Beckenbauer, Messi, Maradona, Ronaldo, Cristiano, Mattheus, etc. as G.O.A.T. There is no fact in this case, just opinions.
So how many of you rate him higher than Messi? Would it be worth to have a poll or would it be one-sided?
At his best (96-98) he was better or equal to Messi
To this Messi or the Messi that racked up 90 goals in a calendar year?
I think it also depends on the age of the average caf member. majority of younger posters have never seen Ronaldo playing in his prime and looking at numbers only, they would probably laugh at me if I said that Ronaldo's best was comparable or at least close to Messi's best. obviously, I'm talking about natural ability, not careers.
I started that discussion too highlight how they played in different eras and faced teans who were differently set up, so the claim that Messi couldnt play in that Serie A would be as unfunded as the claim that Ronaldo wouldnt have been able to play in this Barcelona team. We will never know. Different skill sets were required for that.I wrote about teams parking the bus in previous eras as well in my previous post (especillay Serie A teams), and did not attempt on a discussion of Catenaccio. So you must have been in a hurry when you read that post? Because I did not argue about your thoughts on catenaccio, and I am not attempting to read your essay about it
There are probably many people rating Zidane higher than Messi, for different reasons, but you do realise that they are in complete different positions...It is almost as if you are taking it personal on Messi's behalf, but you do understand that rating someone higher than Messi does not imply that one think Messi is overrated...
And - once again - it is your stand that people are being too nostalgic, and don't think it is anyone's business to give you crap for it. I do agree that it is very difficult to compare players of different eras, for lots of reasons, hence it will forever be tough to have one undesputed Greatest of All Time. For me, as with some other fans, Ronaldo is the greatest (personally my top 3 G.O.A.T.) for different reasons, and he was the greatest for me when he was still active, as he is now a decade later. That does not mean that we don't enjoy or rate other stars of today and other eras as legends. As I mentioned in some posts earlier, there are perfect legitimate arguments to have either of Puskas, Di Stefano, Pele, Beckenbauer, Messi, Maradona, Ronaldo, Cristiano, Mattheus, etc. as G.O.A.T. There is no fact in this case, just opinions.
I am not talking about that but Messi has been the absolute best or second to Ronaldo for so many years running, Zidane is closer to Iniesta than he is to Messi.
It's not about not enjoying the stars of today, it is about it being fresh in memories that Messi too has lesser matches, patches where he doesnt have his form, as did Ronaldo. In your mind unconciously you remember that Messi was toothless vs Juventus, that C.Ronaldo has achieved much more in the past two years. But if we want to compare Messi and Brazilian Ronaldo at their peaks, it becomes unfair for Messi as we remember Ronaldo's absolute highlights to the current Messi. Trust me, if someone cares to bother he can make a Messi career highlight reel more impressive than than Ronaldo's 15 min video just posted.
Of course we support United but look how many times that OT Trafford hattrick is mentioned to show just how super good ge was, and he was super good but that wasnt his weekly game. I can also name Messi super shows of the past few years, where he destroyed Real Madrid, Manchester United, City, PSG, Bayern, Arsenal.
Its fine if you think Ronaldo was better, but most arguments people use are very invalid to me. They just go on about the WC's he won, or the refs or the Serie A but not enough individual comparison between the two.
@Sammyjunn
Why do you want to compare Ronaldo with Messi? They don't have the same role on the pitch. One is a CF while the other is a false 9 or wing-forward.
In terms of style play, you should watch this videos instead of writing some posts
Why do you want to compare Ronaldo with Messi? They don't have the same role on the pitch. One is a CF while the other is a false 9 or wing-forward.
In terms of style play, you should watch this videos instead of writing some posts
I dont think a lot of people would laugh at you as that'd be a very right statement probably. If you forget the goals and trophies and look at their sheer class, skill, finishing, technique, the way they degraded the best of defenders and how much better they looked than some of the other of the best players, it is clear that at their best (Ronaldo from Barcelona until the knee-injury and Messi I think from 2009-2013). Main reason I rate Messi higher is that when he played as a 9, in terms of finishing, dribbling, movement, shooting, weak in and out performing, magic he was very comparable to Ronaldo, at sinilar levels. Ronaldo did have a greater physique, was faster, stronger, better in the air but Messi as a playmaker, his vision, general understanding of the game and passing was superior. But both the most complete attackers of the past 25 years, with C.Ronaldo very close to them. Although his natural abilitg falls short of them.
Well then lets not compare anyone to anyone. Messi can only be compared to Maradonna, Ronaldo only to Pele and C.Robaldo only to (?!).@Sammyjunn
Why do you want to compare Ronaldo with Messi? They don't have the same role on the pitch. One is a CF while the other is a false 9 or wing-forward.
In terms of style play, you should watch this videos instead of writing some posts
Messi and Brazilian Ronaldo at their peaks both played up front, were the focal point of their team, were the best player at the time and are two of the greatest players ever, who have achieved an awful lot and also had sheer natural ability that's almost unrivalled.
If you dont want to compare the two because Ronaldo was a pure 9 and Messi a false 9 (different era's, tactical set ups) then dont, dont reply on my posts anymore and enjoy your thread.
I actually almost entirely agree with this point. I cynically think the players of today are being curled and that attacking players in general are more protected than ever, which is why I always tend to rate players from the past higher than those of today. And it is actually not a secret that football has gone to this directon, to protect the attackers. But - I do believe some of the players of today wouldn't be able to reach the same heights if playing in previous eras. However, I cannot ever prove this, it just my own perception. And I do realise that my notion will only remain hypothetical, which doesn't even pass as rational, but it is my stand. You have a much more valid point in the sense that players from different eras are really - by the end of the day - impossible to compare.
That was kind of what I was implying too, concerning Zidane. And Iniesta is the closest thing we ever get to Zidane, they certainly fall in the same category. Zidane is my favourite of all time, but I rate Ronaldo's impact higher.
I don't think (and hope not) anyone will forget Messi's impact to the game, and that he has performed against every opponent there were (unless that football fan have lived under a rock and been in a coma
). But you could also turn it around - what if Internet was established as it is today, with the social media and the accessability of information, in Ronaldo's era? Would his reputation - as well as other players of that era - been even more amplified? (...Hm..or what if we did not have Internet, social media, and such today, would Messi's reputation been bigger because of the absence of accessing information?
).I do agree with this though - that stats argument are not always valid. Zidane's (as well as Iniesta's) stats are not that good, but both have had their impact to the game, especially for us who lived to see them in their primes. Ronaldo is the greatest for me, because yet to this day I have not experienced any player to master his combination oof technique, pace, acceleration and strength. He could look like a cannon ball or a lightning cutting through defences. For me, his impact to the game is incredible, in the sense of when he broke through, that combination of skills made him certainly look like a phenomenon. Still to this day, we can see some skills that are directly copied from him, as the flip-flop.
My favourite player of all time. United got me into football but he was my first favourite player. The way he played and maybe because it was so much more difficult to see foreign football, you only ever heard about him in the news scoring goals or seeing him in the odd game here and there. There was always excitment in the pre match for him and I can't remember a time where I was left disappointed in his performance when I was a youngster
@Sammyjunn
I understand your reasoning.
I had similar discussions with the Cristiano fanboy Cal? in the past.
I understand your reasoning.
I had similar discussions with the Cristiano fanboy Cal? in the past.