The Serie A back then was full of quality sides. The PL is not at the moment (as proven by recent CL showings). It may be more competitive than other sides, but it's a sign of how low the quality is throughout the league.
How good was Ronaldo #9?
- Thread starter VorZakone
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Fair enough. It's a good point, but you could have just said that first time around. Lazy git.
Fair enough. It's a good point, but you could have just said that first time around. Lazy git.
guilty as charged.Neymar gets into a lot of past Brazil teams even 1970. Like I said in the Brazil thread for every Ronaldo, Pele that made the team someone like Mazinho or Serginho made the team.
Imagine peak Ronaldo in that 1970 team, up alongside Pele. They would have beat Italy by 10 goals.
What a crap post.
Must be a WUM.
Opinions eh? Some people crazy enough to have them!
In the time that I've watched, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and then Messi are the 3 outstanding talents. I think we can say that we saw all the potential of Messi given all the top seasons he had, and playing for a great team. The other two we're just left to speculate on whether they could reach further heights if their peaks hadn't been cut short for different reasons, or if they'd been part of even stronger teams at those peaks.
If you had substituted every mention of Messi with Cristiano Ronaldo then there may have been a kernel of truth to it, but even then it still would've been over the top.
Cheers mate. My favorite times.
I remember the Holland - Brazil semifinal at the 1998 world cup. I crapped my pants every time Ronaldo got the ball. It was like he was incorporeal or something. Just no stopping him at all.
Still, we should've gotten a penalty in injury time and went to the final.
Still, we should've gotten a penalty in injury time and went to the final.
We do lack an entertaining striker like him today. You look at the likes of Suarez, Lewandowski, Benzema, Aguero, Higuain etc and they're simply not as fun to watch as Ronaldo.
Kluivert missed a few headers in that game (scoring one) which probably should have made the difference. You can see why France targeted Brazil's weakness in the air from cross-balls and corners in the final.
We should of lost that game. The defense throughout the tournament was awful.
Yeah, a lot of Brazilians are still mystified as to how we lost in the final. But the team had been showing cracks in terms of defending since loss to Norway in Group Stage. In typical Brazilian fashion the thinking was "we have Ronaldo and Rivaldo, no one can touch us". And since Ronaldo was ill for final, losing it must be attributed to that (and conspiracy). France having better midfield play and shit defending on 2 corners are irrelevant... football must be decided by forwards.
Yep, our midfield play wasn't great either back then. Dunga was decent but past his prime. Junior Baiano in defense was a big time liability. We won games in that era on pure attacking talent of Ronaldo, Romario and to some extent Rivaldo. For all the talk about legendary past teams, they had some wonderful individuals but it really wasn't a team. There was a lot of glaring holes.
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You were soft in the key areas at centre-half and central midfield. Cesar Sampaio did well at set-pieces but the absence of Mauro Silva, breaking up that impenetrable partnership he had with Dunga in 1994, was crucial. Zidane doesn't dominate the final as easily as he did with Mauro on his heels. The centre-backs weren't great - Flo and Kluivert bullied them and they probably needed more cover than what they had. Fantastic team to watch though, all of Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos and Cafu at the peak of their powers - it's rare you get a flourishing of such world-class talent at the very top of their game.
I agree about Mauro Silva. Zagallo should of taken him. Another player that would of made a big difference IMO is a healthy Romario. I always wondered how a healthy trio of Ronaldo, Romario and Rivaldo would of fared versus France.
I imagine even with the glaring deficiencies in the team, the final would've been a massively different thing had Ronaldo been fine.
You can visibly see the state of the Brazil team as they walk out onto the pitch, their heads aren't in it at all, let alone Ronaldo's.
In any case, Ronaldo is the one player I'd give to have back in his prime and regardless of what some people think, he'd utterly destroy modern day defences, they're absolutely no patch on the 1990's defences he faced and he tore them a new one. You can't prove it obviously but he just would, his combination of power, skill, quick feet, quick thought, balance and sheer pace would be way, way too much now.
@VorZakone sign up and watch some of these matches.
http://footballia.net/players/ronaldo-luiz-nazario-da-lima
You can visibly see the state of the Brazil team as they walk out onto the pitch, their heads aren't in it at all, let alone Ronaldo's.
In any case, Ronaldo is the one player I'd give to have back in his prime and regardless of what some people think, he'd utterly destroy modern day defences, they're absolutely no patch on the 1990's defences he faced and he tore them a new one. You can't prove it obviously but he just would, his combination of power, skill, quick feet, quick thought, balance and sheer pace would be way, way too much now.
@VorZakone sign up and watch some of these matches.
http://footballia.net/players/ronaldo-luiz-nazario-da-lima
That would have made it even more ludicrous than it already is.
Luiz Ronaldo, whilst a top player in his prime, should not even belong to the "Greatest of all time" category that the likes of Pele, Maradona, Cristiano & Messi do.
AC Milan 99-00: Maldini, Costacurta, Ayala
Lazio 99-00: Nesta, Couto
Parma99-00: Buffon, Cannavaro, Thuram
Roma 99-00: Cafu, Aldair
Inter 99-00: Zanetti, Blanc, Panucci
Just a taster, as to the defensive strength of the teams at the time Ronaldo played in Serie A. The overall team quality, including midfield strength and offensive strength was also much higher than any league you see these days and especially La Liga.. where only Atletico has been able to provide a strong challenge to the el clasico duopoly.
I disagree with those who say we didn't see Ronaldinho's peak... I think we did, and he was bloody awesome from 03-05.. yes he could have had a longer peak, but I don't think he had more to give than what he showed during those seasons. That is why Messi is comfortably the superior player to him overall, as I rate his peak higher and considering that even a half decent Messi was able to drag his nation to a world cup final.. that puts him on a different tier to Ronaldinho to me.
Cristiano for me simply doesn't match up to R9 at his very best, and yes the stats may bear otherwise but if you just watch them and if they were playing against quality defenders... R9 would be the scarier prospect to face in every sense IMO.
Peak R9 and peak Messi is not as easy to decide. I used to be R9 is the best brigade, but upon closer analysis, as much as he was an absolute phenom with every skill in his locker.. his passing was not on same level as Messi, or his decision-making in general and his first touch wasn't as secure as Messi's. He was however more penetrative, with stronger hold up play with back to goal and had more tricks in his locker. Messi is more simple, but more precise and consistent with his actions.. and if he was to win a world cup, I think he'd win the duel universally but right now I can see why people favour one over the other without it being properly decided.
What I will say is peak Messi, playing in Serie A.. may have struggled initially but would have adapted his game and we shouldn't lose sight of just how spectacular or special he is.
Lazio 99-00: Nesta, Couto
Parma99-00: Buffon, Cannavaro, Thuram
Roma 99-00: Cafu, Aldair
Inter 99-00: Zanetti, Blanc, Panucci
Just a taster, as to the defensive strength of the teams at the time Ronaldo played in Serie A. The overall team quality, including midfield strength and offensive strength was also much higher than any league you see these days and especially La Liga.. where only Atletico has been able to provide a strong challenge to the el clasico duopoly.
I disagree with those who say we didn't see Ronaldinho's peak... I think we did, and he was bloody awesome from 03-05.. yes he could have had a longer peak, but I don't think he had more to give than what he showed during those seasons. That is why Messi is comfortably the superior player to him overall, as I rate his peak higher and considering that even a half decent Messi was able to drag his nation to a world cup final.. that puts him on a different tier to Ronaldinho to me.
Cristiano for me simply doesn't match up to R9 at his very best, and yes the stats may bear otherwise but if you just watch them and if they were playing against quality defenders... R9 would be the scarier prospect to face in every sense IMO.
Peak R9 and peak Messi is not as easy to decide. I used to be R9 is the best brigade, but upon closer analysis, as much as he was an absolute phenom with every skill in his locker.. his passing was not on same level as Messi, or his decision-making in general and his first touch wasn't as secure as Messi's. He was however more penetrative, with stronger hold up play with back to goal and had more tricks in his locker. Messi is more simple, but more precise and consistent with his actions.. and if he was to win a world cup, I think he'd win the duel universally but right now I can see why people favour one over the other without it being properly decided.
What I will say is peak Messi, playing in Serie A.. may have struggled initially but would have adapted his game and we shouldn't lose sight of just how spectacular or special he is.
I disagree. He has won the world cup twice and reached final once...three times world player of the year..one of the greatest dribblers..won 2 la liga..uefa..copa america..second highest scorer for both at world cup and for brazil.... scored a career of more than 350 goals.. the list goes on..
I mean what more do we want from a player ?
At 21 he was better than Messi and Cristiano at their best. Buffon is right, he looked like he was built in a lab. Same uncanny real life video game feel as Messi, only faster, stronger, even more unstoppable
Double the amount of goals, Champions League success, consistency as one of the greats for over 10 years, better haircuts... I will never understand why people give such importance to dribbling. A great positional sense or aerial threat give more to the team and they're never mentioned but dribbling always appears in the conversation. Seems like judging a forward has been reduced to passing, dribbling and scoring, and only goals after great dribbles or passes seem to count when the vast majority of goals involve neither.
As for the 2 World Cups, he didn't even play in 94 and there was so much more happening other than Ronaldo Fenomeno in 2002. The easy draw ending with Germany in the final, the Wilmots wrongly disallowed goal, Rivaldo and Ronaldinho alongside him playing an insane tournament...
Even Romário is above Ronaldo Fenómeno, nevermind Cristiano or Messi.
No Cal?, it wouldn't. Statistics, or more to the point - goal scoring statistics, are the main factor which elevate Cristiano Ronaldo into these discussions.
The following is an over-simplification of the debate but with Messi statistics are the icing on the cake. With Ronaldo however, they are the cake.
The 'Greatest of all Time' category has a membership of 3 in my, and I dare say - most people's, eyes; Pele, Maradona and Messi.
Cristiano Ronaldo belongs in the next tier. Perhaps he is at the head of it - time will tell I suppose, but he doesn't have the skill set to trouble the top 3. It's the skill set/ability of a player that marvels people the most and that's why Luiz Ronaldo left such an indelible mark.
Is this a wind up?
Ronaldo is the most explosive player I've seen, ever. Even moreso than Maradona and Pele(they are still better due to their overall abilities). Before the injury he was literally unstoppable in an era where most of the teams had awesome defensive line in Seria A.
The protection Cristiano and Messi have today is crazy compared to this:
Tackle from behind was still allowed back then.
Take 11/12 for example. Against Real in La Liga you had like 13 players sent off for the opposition. That's 1 in every three games. Almost in every game you have 4-5 players on cards. Same for Barcelona - 8 reds for the opposition and usually 4-5 defensive players on cards.
Today referees are much more card happy against defending like in the 90's which results much more cautions defenders till the rest of the game.
It's not just dribbling, it's pace, power, balance, strength, finishing. The man got it all.
Messi has a low center of gravity which makes it really hard to dispossess him for example. Ronaldo was a bit more different. Especially before the injury he had crazy amount of acceleration, but also the way he glided past opponents was something else.
What does that mean?
It's been 20 years, had to watch Ronaldo's goals for Barca and Inter again. I'd suggest people here should do the same.
Was a bit surprised to be honest.
Was a bit surprised to be honest.
What were you surprised about?
Put simply - outside of goalscoring C Ronaldo isn't exceptional at anything, especially when judged against 'Greatest of all Time' standards. He can't run a game like the others could.
No and it's a huge discussion in Brazil with plenty of people prefering Romário. The fact that you think it's a wind up says it all about how much people are elevating Ronaldo Fenomeno here.Is this a wind up?
Despite the Serie A having great defensive lines out of the 15 years of Cristiano's career only in 2 years there was a goals per game average in his league superior to Serie A in 1997/98 and 1998/99. 4 years only for Messi too. So how good defensively was it really? It was tougher for him to score because the league was more competitive, not because the games had less goals and defenses were that good. Despite all the praise of Fenomeno's time at Inter he essentially just played 2 actual seasons of football there.
That's true for La Liga but what about this?
Cristiano had it pretty hard in the Premier League too. He came back after the World Cup in 2006 to get kicked and booed more than ever, he thrived and led United to the title. Messi and the whole Barça team has had teams trying to stop them winning by kicking them too.
He doesn't have the finishing, crossing, aerial ability and off the ball movement of Cristiano, the finishing, passing and vision of Messi or the set piece ability of either. But most importantly he doesn't have the consistency at the top of most other greats. Cristiano has been in the top 23 of the Ballon D'Or for 13 straight years now, soon to be 14 and it won't take long before he has more appearances than the likes of Giggs or Maldini. Messi is 2 years younger but if he doesn't get injuries he'll get there too, that's how long they've been around how many matches they've played. If you only take their peaks into account then Ronaldo Fenomeno is probably better than anyone else, but for their whole careers there's no question.
If the question is 'For 3 years would you rather have Ronaldo or Romário at your club?' the answer is Ronaldo but if the question is 'For 10 years would you rather have Ronaldo or Romário at your club?' then it's easily Romário.
Amazing player. Here is a thought. In what order would you guys put Messi, Zidane, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo De Lima?
True, but Romario is a folk hero in Brazil, and if you ask those same brazilians to rank the 3 greatest players of all time, the answer would be 1. Pelé 2. Garrincha 3. Romario
The whole discussion hinges on that. Most of us saying Ronaldo was better than Messi/Cristiano are talking strictly in terms of raw ability at their respective best. It's not even a debate if we judge them in terms of their whole careers, because Ronaldo suffered too many injuries
In terms of all time greatness or sheer peak ability?
Messi->Ronaldo->Zidane->Dinho if the former, Fenomeno->Messi->Dinho=Zidane if the latter
Very difficult, if not impossible to say. I think what Messi has over the other 3 is that he showed his brilliance over a very long time so far. Zidane was a bit of a late bloomer but absolutely amazing while Ronaldo and Ronaldinho at their peaks were incredible but, imo, faded then too quickly. I couldnt put them in order tbh
Both combined, if you picked an all time top ten you would be expected to choose their career along with talent and quality. Giggs is the greatest player in PL history, because of his quality and career length. But he would probably find it difficult to be in top ten on sheer ability alone. Even though he was outstanding.
To be honest I don't really know anyone who would put Romario above Ronaldo. He's a great forward but he doesn't stack up to him. I'd like to see some other reasoning but can't really see an area he'd beat him, especially going through their peaks.
Goals per game doesn't tell the whole story. At all.
During the 90's Seria A was crazy good and stacked with excellent teams.
Take the European cup finals during the 90's:
CL:
90' Milan - W
92' Sampdoria F
93' Milan - F
94' Milan - W
95' Milan - F
96' Juve - W
97' Juve - F
98' Juve - F
UEFA:
90' Juve - W , Fio - F
91' Inter - W , Roma - F
92' Torino - F
93' Juve - W
94' Inter - W
95' Parma - W , Juve - F
97' Inter - F
98' Inter - W, Lazio - F
99' Parma - W
CWC:
90' Sampdoria - W
93' Parma - W
94' Parma - F
99' Lazio - W
To recap - only 1 year in CL at that time had no Italian teams in the finals. Same for UEFA and 6 in CWC.
At the time 13 CL/UEFA/CWC were won by multiple Italian teams along with another 12 finalists.
So no, it's not the same as having Real and Barca and occasional challenge from Atletico, Valencia or Villareal. All those sides had teams that could go all the way and dominated Europe through the 90's.
The defensive lines I think it's unquestionably better if you go past statistics and the actual teams/games. Their performance in Europe back that up as well.
Combine that with Inter having a dysfunctional team and no players of the same caliber alongside him.
The Barca team he peaked for was also on the wane (Cruyff's dream team) and was a process of rebuilding.
Some quotes from that time:
That's not peak Cristiano tho, and certainly didn't put the same numbers at United compared to Ronaldo at Barca playing for a better team. Messi had people kicking him, but he also had Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o, Ronaldinho, etc - players who can divert attention. Playing against Inter or Barca at the time had one single plan - stop Ronaldo and you'll take something from the game.
We're talking about peak here tho, not consistency. Of course when it comes to consistency both Messi and Cristiano blow everyone else (bar Pele) away.
If I have to chose just three years who would' lead the line for 3 years peak? 96-98 Ronaldo is certainly better in terms of peak level to Cristiano. Right up there with Messi and up for debate on who would you take.
As for how highly he's rated, here are some quotes from some of the best managers in the game:
“Ronaldo, the phenomenon, was the greatest player I have ever coached.”
— Fabio Capello
“If we are talking about singular players, Ronaldo is one of the most singular ones. He can get no ball for the whole match and determine the match with one action of his.”
— Vicente del Bosque
“Ronaldo was marvellous. He had one year with me at Barcelona, I bought him from PSV, and he was out of this world. He was a god, absolutely fantastic. He had amazing ability, was a great young athlete, a nice character, respected me and it was sad he only played eight months for us there. [ . . . ] The year he had with us you could see he was going to be phenomenal. He was so strong, would go past people, come deep to get the ball, turn and whatever you put in front of him there was a chance he could always go through you. Power and skill.”
— Sir Bobby Robson (when asked about the best signing he’d ever made)
“I once saw Ronaldo score a goal for Barcelona where he beat five or six players. As I’ve said, he was phenomenal. [ . . . ] Maradona at his best was the best I ever saw. A superb player. Ronaldo would be a close second though.”
— Sir Bobby Robson
“Coaches recommended a second defensive line against him because everyone had the impression that Ronaldo would be able to lose his marker, whether it was with a sprint, or facing a defender directly.”
— Marcello Lippi
“After Maradona the best player was Ronaldo [ . . . ] it is my opinion that he is the best of the last 20 years.”
— Jose Mourinho, after Klose broke Ronaldo’s record for goals scored in World Cup finals in 2015
Romario was great of course, but he was never rated like that. Ever.
Putting it up here. A magical performance from Ronaldo still at PSV against Leverkusen in UEFA cup topped by a hattrick.